Creating encounters

Uhhh, since I stopped using XP like five years ago and nobody in my group cares either way (we just level up when it's appropriate), I'm still inclined to say "just make it up", though.
The regular CR system simply doesn't work and if it's a normal encounter for the group, just treat it like that XP-wise, even if the total XP in the fight would probably be significantly more

okay i gotcha. I'll see what i can do to make it work how do you guys decide when to properly level up? I'm curious

Depends on the length of the campaign, and what kind of level range you want. If you want an epic 1-20 campaign consisting 40 sessions, maybe give a level after every two sessions or something.

I usually see what kind of monsters or other challenges I want to throw at them during the campaign and try to pace the level ups and treasure accordingly.

Giving level after certain milestones (end of a plot arc, end of a dungeon, major roleplaying encounter, etc..) is always a solid choice.

Kinda depends, it's mostly after signifcant events in the story, which for us is every 3-6 sessions or so. We tend to make it a bit faster around the lower levels up 6, then slow down and savour 7-10 a bit more and then it really depends on how long the game goes.
It's also dependant on what classes are in the group. For example, if there's two 9th lvl casters, but one of them is a sorc while the other is a wizard, we might skip quite fast from 5 to 6, so that both of them can enjoy their 3rd level spells or if there's a ranger who really benefits from his animal companion we might to from 3 to 4 a bit faster.
Sometimes one of us just goes "Hey, hasn't it been some time since we last levelled" and then it happens after that or the next session.

What's certain is that not one of us is interested in tracking XP, inclduing the GM

>(5 level 1s= level 5 encounter)
This is not true. It's not even true by the DMG's (hilariously wrong) concept of encounter level. Even if you had 10 CR1 enemies they might not give much of a damn.

Honestly there's no proper foolproof way to scale encounter level, it's mostly experience and taking feedback into account. Things are too easy? Make the next encounter harder. But don't just up the HP and damage or stick in some side mooks, think about terrain and such too. A bunch of ogres ambushing the party in a road might be easily dispatched, but if the same ogres attack them while they're in a pass and throw rocks at them from above, it suddenly might be a lot more challenging.

As a sort of counterpoint to that first remark, I find that when you're around the mid levels, a single enemy is also rarely a satisfying encounter for a party of 4 unless it's a spellcaster, dragon or something like that. Odds are decent it'll get grappled/disabled/whatever and lose a bunch of its actions, or it will do so much damage in one round that it'll just kill someone anyway.

>but if the same ogres attack them while they're in a pass and throw rocks at them from above, it suddenly might be a lot more challenging.
Ranged enemies as well as spellcaster enemies always make encounters harder, because they both want to strike from somewhere where they can't be reached, start doing damage/effects before the melees of the PC party can engage, which gives them a distinct advantage in the HP battle and might even use traps or spells that slow down the PCs even more

That's definitely true, but even if the ogres were throwing rocks, if they just engage the PCs on a level field it'll still only buy them a round or two. Having a fortified/defendable position can really make an encounter challenging (and more tactical) without just relying on bigger numbers.

hmmm, alot of my enemies are in fact melee. I'll have to rectify this

Play 4e, where the encounter building system actually worked and automatically accounted for traps and environmental/positioning advantages.

i could probably just lift 4es system and drop it into pathfinder couldn't I? I don't think I can just change the whole system we've been playing for the entire campaign

>i could probably just lift 4es system and drop it into pathfinder couldn't I?
Not in the slightest, user.
The systems are incompatible in regards to creature design and underpinnings. I was more or less making a snarky joke at how CR has always tripped up people until they learned you basically had to ignore it and feel out what your players can handle.

No, 4e's system works because both the monsters and the characters have well defined roles that you can plan and design around, with a very tightly controlled power curve.

In PF, where 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard are supposed to be an equal challenge to the party, it'd just fall apart. It's just not as tightly designed.

It's still good for taking encounter building advice from, but you'll have to adjust a lot more to the party you are having and the tactics they have access to, than in 4e.

...

The math in 4e is very stable, and characters scale well.
Sorry, user. The best advice I can give is a few fold.
>What works for players works for foes. Learn what the "optimal" defenses are, and use them sparingly. Something as simple as Blink, Mirror Image or Blur can turn a easy fight into a decent challenge
>When in doubt, THROW MAGIC AT THEM. Seriously, a single spell has all of the battle influencing power the players can lob at you. Ever use Haboob on players? I have, and learned it because it was done to me.
>You, the DM, are not beholden to the rules the players labor under. Use Initiators from Tome of Battle and Path of War as elite foes and martial commanders, watch your players freak the fuck out. Use binders from Magic of Incarnum and Akahic Mysteries, let them figure it out.
>Even better, the above do not require magic loot to be a threat, so you do not need fear kitting out enemies with gear you don't want players to have easily in order to threaten them.
What does your party look like, user?

My party looks like this

I'll be sure to try all of the advice in this thread out though. I think throwing some good debuffers to compliment any melee minions i got planned would work well too.

In this campaign, are you using humanoids, outsiders, magical beasts as primary foes?

well with the current situation They're in the middle of a city getting swarmed by goblins after they came out the top of the mountain from fighting a dragon. (they actually met the goblins in the tunnel but left them alone because the cleric was hellbent on killing this dragon. the look on their faces when i told them the city was burning was priceless.)

Other than that I have a huge boner for monster diversity So depending on where they're at i like throwing a little bit of everything at them.

I've had the same problem with 3.5 and PF the real problem is how easy it is and how often players tend to optimize to the extreme in these systems. There's nothing really wrong with this but it makes things difficult from a GM perspective. my basic rule of thumb is never give them an encounter less than +1cr above the average level. That tends to work okay. But, what I've found the best success with is make encounters have something they can't fight poison gas, darkness, difficult terrain, flying creatures if they're lower level all make things more interseting. Traps and hazards make an encounter different and challenging because they have to solve it without the basic hit it until it dies mentality. Alternatively you could make the traps or hazards the entire encounter, an unnoticed quicksand pit can be very dangerous if you aren't prepared. I still remember the cursed swamp my players had to trek through that utterly exhausted them and put the little bit of fear they should always have back in them but they only fought two creatures and when they did despite a party of 6 lvl 4 characters a single Chull KO'd the rouge and the ranger cuz the cleric was stuck in the muck and couldn't get to them fast enough. My basic point is this use the environment and things the players can't kill to make encounters more challenging. A band of orcs is far more dangerous on top of a cliff dropping blouders than just charging the players, and a cloaker is much scarier if you can't see it because all of your torches are too wet to light.

A good general technique that works in any system is to look at your players character sheets, make some notes and do some maths.

Look at all their attack rolls, the maximums, minimums, averages and group averages. Look at their individual damage outputs and secondary abilities, look at their defences and damage.

Use those numbers as your guideline. Set enemy defences high enough to be challenging but low enough not to make the combat an endless frustration of misses, with enemy HP enough to make it a struggle but not enough to make the combat drag out and be boring. Likewise, make sure enemy attacks are roughly balanced against PC defences and that damage is also against PC HP.

There are tradeoffs, of course, more accuracy for less damage, vice versa, and adding abilities, gimmicks or special traits to a fight can add depth and complexity to this. There will be times when extremely hardy, hard to hit, accurate or hard hitting enemies are appropriate, but all of those judgements are a lot easier to make when you've done the prep work and have all your PC's key combat stats and averages there to see and cross reference.