Warmachine/Hordes General - /wmhg/

I love this game but I wish I could play with 3d terrain.

>35% winrate
>PP still refuses to acknowledge that trolls need a skorne level errata

Dwarven Mercs (= Ossrum + all the Bunnies). Or Legion. Or Protectorate with a few jacks. Skorne in Winds of Death theme. Cygnar without Storm Knights.

35% winrate according to a very limited set of data. Trolls do need something though.

Dunno if it's relevant, but the discord is broken for me.

To keep it relevant, Can anyone either link it or give me the skinny on the massive overhaul that Skorne got, and what rules changed?

I was going to suggest Mercs, Legion, or Skorne as well. But then I thought maybe boiling it all down to just Mercs because Legion and Skorne are also basically just elves.

>Skorne
>Elves
No.

Discord is having server problems of some sort.

While we're on the topic, when it's *working* we've got a nice chat room on Discord here: discord.gg/KmXzbwD

is cygnar without stormblades/lances even worth playing?

You got 3.5 flavors of elves in wmh

Elves
Snow elves
-mutant snow elves
Desert elves

Sure. Lances are just the current hotness, but you can play other things too. Their jack theme force is pretty good. The trencher theme might be legit too, but time will tell. Gunmages are currently pretty bad.

>Desert elves
Just. No.

Ret has the same winrate, clearly elves need a fix too :^)

To be fair, they do basically just look like gaunt, nasty elves.

In fact, I'm relatively confident that they were probably envisaged as outcast elves or mutated untouchables from Lyossan society that formed their own civilization. Or possibly Lacyr's first try at making a sapient species that were promptly discarded.

I know PP are adamant that they're not elves, and they probably have gone in a different direction with their origins since then, I still believe this is how they probably started conceptually. I mean, not only do they look like fucked up elves, but their fluff is more intimately entwined with the elvish lore than any other faction.

Menoth gunlines are hilarious.

You can either go with kreoss1 and shoot inaccurate shit at things that can't defend themselves thanks to his feat or you play Malekus (the battlebox caster) to set EVERYTHING on fire.

are those tourney viable strategies? i dont care about them being top tier necessarily i just want it to be better than trollbloods.

This is along the lines of what I meant. They may not be elves but they look like fucked up elves. If someone doesn't want to play elves then they may not want to play the faction that LOOKS like fucked up elves.

I'll also be honest and say I just plain forgot about the Protectorate.

Yeah it might have been the original intent. I'm glad they went for fucked-up hobgoblins crossed with a perverted mix of human cultures instead.

Sure.

Not saying it can't work; It simply isn't the best thing Menoth players can bring to a tournament (Amon spams melee jacks to pound things into the dirt and High reclaimer has a ridiculous attrition/assassination game with his support spells and feat)

Kreoss1 one-trick pony feat lists are very similar to Sorscha1 guns in Khador and since she wins every now and then with that, you could too.

Take this meme list to my left as an example. It's certainly able to completely wash away certain lists, but against others (with lots of anti-knockdown tech) it just falls flat on it's faces.

Malekus is not really tourney viable. He may be when the Revelator comes out, though.

Kreoss1 is *definitely* tournament viable.

Sevvy1 and Sevvy2 are both tournament viable and run nice gunlines, too.

Protectorate, in addition to be able to run ridiculous gunlines, has one of the best anti-gunline casters in Amon, too.

I'd suggest something more like this.

Kreoss1 is one of the best casters in the game, he doesn't get a lot of credit, though, since he's often boring to play, but he's a really strong second pairing for PoM's main tourney casters (Amon and High Reclaimer), since he fills in some weaknesses, and more than a couple of power casters (e.g., Haley2) don't like to see him across the table.

Feels like Menoth breaks the whole idea of factions having a broad theme, and does it in multiple competitively viable ways. Your opponent's pairing is Amon and High Reclaimer. How can you possibly choose a list here? Both lists require such ridiculously different answers that you're forced to play list chicken. Does PP want Menoth to be the list chicken faction?

Menoth is clearly the denial faction. For example, denying your opponent's chances of a reliable list selection.

That's retarded, shut up.

Which is exactly why ADR with sideboard should be the official format for everything competitive.

In a world where all casters are competitive, sure, I can agree with that.

They're hardly the first faction do play list chicken.

Besides, several factions can build reliable answers to both lists.

It's tough to be a Troll

Maybe if ADR was 8 casters or something. I wouldn't want to play in a big event and only play against the same casters.

>Maybe if ADR was 8 casters or something
I'm pretty sure that would make it shit. I mean, Convergence only has 5 casters, Grymkin only has 6. If you ignore versions, most factions barely beat that if at all. And there's still the offchance that one faction gets access to a super strong pair while other factions don't.

Haha, I also wosh for 3D terrain, but the store I play at likes 2D for its ease of storage.

And if I could play more than once a month I might not leave my caster out in the open to be pulled into an assasination by gun mages

ADR doesn't mean you have to play the casters included, man.

I'm sorry I forgot my [sarcasm] tags, user

And if I could play more than once a month

Ouch. Condolences, user.

>I love this game but I wish I could play with 3d terrain

If you want to use 3d terrain, just use 3d terrain. People use the mousepad stuff because it's cheaper and infinitely easier to get accurate measurements, but no one is stopping you from using whatever you want.

3d terrain is awesome and looks better on the table, but it's expensive and/or time consuming to make

One of the biggest reasons you don't see 3D terrain is most game stores usually have 40k style terrain, which is terrible for Warmahordes.

But or make your own then?

Harder to do. As pointed out, 2D terrain is much easier. Also, can't get stolen because you don't have to leave it at the store.

Then you're fucked? If you're not willing to put in the effort then I don't know what to tell you

Does anyone have rules for extreme colossal wrestling yet?

I thought that if the event was ADR it was required. When it started it wasn't but in 2016 it became its own event

Are you thinking Champions, which uses the same ADR roster, requires you to play those casters, but doesn't give you the sideboard?

It's actually a cool format now that Una2 doesn't shit all over every other caster in it.

That's Champions, a specific format.

ADR is just a rule in Masters style events.

Curious ex-player here. What is the current state of the game? I've heard a lot of angry words on Veeky Forums about PP "squandering" its customer goodwill lately but I haven't been able to figure out how. I see new factions are coming out, is that the issue?

People are complaining that PP closed the salt mine known as general discussion forum and the usual bitching and moaning

Well shit, sounds a lot like what GW did.
Also, reposting from last thread:

So 75 points in the max? Huh. Well, in my current collection, I have this:
-Current Khador Battle Box
-Mad Dog Warjack
-Kazaky Elminators
-Manhunter
-5 Man O' Wars

Is this salvagable, or should I try and go in the opposite direction with what I have? The only thing I refuse to do is include Winter Guard, as I find their pricing and posing completely ridiculous. I also find the idea of using grunts instead of cool robots, power armor and Robots rather dumb. I believe what I have now is around 40 points or so, last time I checked, so what would you recommend to bring my list up to snuff for 75 point games.

>Well shit, sounds a lot like what GW did.
That's what people will screech and shout about. It kinda sucks if you really liked the forum but it was a shit hole that everyone made fun of for a reason.

At least there still is a forum for general list, tactics, and community discussions. GW removed their old forums entirely

MK3's launch was a complete cockup for a number of reasons - the game needed a Day 1 errata and a substantial FAQ, which the developers seemed extremely reluctant to provide. To the point where certain obviously broken mechanics (Gang not triggering if the target is knocked down, making units which have Gang and Knockdown self-defeating) were described as "working as intended" until PP finally caved. There were, and still are, some massive balance issues as well. Skorne were completely unplayable (they have since had a total rewrite) but shooting is extremely dominant and certain factions (Cryx and Trolls come to mind) are riven with crippling internal flaws.

To add onto this, PP recently ended the Press Ganger program and are moving all their rules to digital, and while there are some valid reasons for these decisions, it's also pissed quite a few people off. And then they completely rebuilt the forums, killing faction communities and shunting most of the discussion off to their social media feeds. It feels a lot like they're trying to silence the growing discontent amongst the fanbase.

>To add onto this, PP recently ended the Press Ganger program and are moving all their rules to digital
The PG thing initially really pissed me off but after taking a but it's not really a big deal. The whole WotC lawsuit fucked us, it sucks, but it is what it is. Life will go on

The digital rules thing? I don't know how you cry about free rules and cards forever.

>And then they completely rebuilt the forums, killing faction communities
And nothing of value was lost? I'm not going to miss it. Any constructive conversation just turned into autistic screeching.

Meant to add that the rules and internal balance issues are truly fuck ups. They need to communicate at least marginally better than a rock and admit when they're wrong.

It looks like CID is a pretty good step in the right direction. Hopefully they follow through and don't fuck this up

PP's biggest issue is PR, full stop. Even some of their more valid decisions are cocked up by their inability to properly explain themselves.

Take the gang shit. If you're unaware of the interaction, what occurred was this: Gang/Flank/some other rules required you to be engaged with an enemy to trigger, a change from Mk2.

Well, people quickly noticed that knocked down or stationary models can't be engaged, meaning that Gang didn't work on them. So, for example, if a Radier rolled a crit knockdown, she lost the gang bonus immediately.

Alright, unforeseen issue, likely borne out of rules as intended vs rules as written(IE, the devs played it as it worked and never bothered to check the impact of the wording change). So far, so good.

So, when it came up in the rules forum, an Infernal ruled that this is how it worked, and that it wasn't being changed.

Now, here's the issue. See, PP has a pretty reasonable rule that Infernals can only interpret the rules as is, they can't make changes. This avoids the rules forum making changes to the game where people can't find it, or where it's not wildly known, they can only state how the rules interact. This avoids some shitty changes, and is generally a good idea. And this is why it got ruled that Gang did in fact function this way.

But where they fucked up is that instead of explaining this, they simply posted "Working as Intended", which is likely the worst thing they could have said. Pissed basically everyone off, because what was clearly a broken interaction got labeled as part of the game, and then PP didn't say shit else.

Of course, come next errata drop(which was like, two weeks later), it got changed back to melee range, and the whole issues disappeared.

And you can point to this being the issue with a lot of things they do, just failing to explain themselves. They've gotten better at about this shit, but there's still a sour taste in a lot of people's mouth over it and what it might foretell.

>I don't know how you cry about free rules and cards forever.

I'm in the UK, and I much prefer having the physical cards - faffing about with smartphone apps is the last thing I want to do in the middle of a game. If I download and print the cards at home, they'll be lower quality than the real ones. I can take them to a print shop - but that costs money on top of what I already pay for the model. Same problem if I buy the cards direct from PP, with the added problem of shipping fees. And these cards might need to be rebought every couple of years as rules change and get errataed. Either way, I'm losing out.

It's not a big thing, and if it was on its own, it wouldn't sour me on the game at all. But it's one more frustration on top of many that PP have thrown at me recently, which isn't helping their case.

As far as the PG thing goes, I know a good number of them who were basically holding their communities together with duct tape and prayer, and most were only doing it out of a sense of loyalty. The sudden axing of the PG program has caused a lot of people in charge of organizing game nights to rethink their brand loyalty.

There was no avoiding it though, the WotC lawsuit is going pretty badly for them, and PP can't even say why they killed it because that would implicate themselves.

I know this army...

Hi Daniel

>The sudden axing of the PG program has caused a lot of people in charge of organizing game nights to rethink their brand loyalty.
Those people are stupid. You should be organizing events because you like the game and want a community. If you were a PG before you basically got very little for your work. Now anyone can organize events and get rewards when they couldn't before.

It's not perfect, neither was the PG program, but acting like communities will suddenly vanish is silly.

Been interested in this game for a while, but finally have the time to start. I see a lot of posts here and on other forums that the game is going to shit, unsupported etc. etc. but I haven't seen any actual issues raised, only general complaints.
Is the death of Warmahordes a meme or is it a good time to start? I want to play Circle fwiw

I'm no lawyer, but it feels like they massively overreacted. Unless there's something I'm missing the WoTC program bears very little similarity to the PG program.

Either way it doesn't much matter, they can say whatever they want but actions speak for themselves, their (ex) volunteers know how much PP valued them now.

>communities will suddenly vanish is silly.
Never said communities would vanish, but a community doesn't have to play Warmachine.

here, read rest of thread and the issues really don't seem crippling. Has the community disservice really done that much to damage groups?

The WotC debacle is a decent theory, but unconfirmed. It did happen in the same state that PP is based in, so it's likely that the lawsuit was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The truth is that the PG program was too bloated and too expensive for PP to maintain. I've talked to several judges and PGs with close ties to PP and I've heard the same thing every time: it's sad to see the PG program go, but every one of them saw it coming.

in my case I like having the professional made cards in front of me so I can read and mark them as I please. whenever my opponent uses something like warroom, I find it to be a pain in the ass to ask to see his rules because he needs to unlock the screen, scroll through the list, etc, etc and I feel like a dolt holding everything up when I stand there holding his tablet reading through the thing as opposed to "hey can I see sorcha's card" "yeah here ya go".

plus iv had more then one occasion where my foes tablet and/or phone ran out of juice during a game and they couldn't really charge it.

I just really prefer the cards

The problem is that under the law, you simply can't be a volunteer for a for-profit company, if you're doing work for them, you have to either be under contract or be a paid employee.

PP neither has the money to fight this(and while Hasbro does, they're very unlikely to win because of the issues of precedent), nor the resources to actually regard PGs as employees. So they had to kill it.

It's never entirely one factor, of course, but the very issue of the lawsuit means it will never be confirmed, because that would be an admission on PPs part of the nature of the program.

And yea, state labor laws are also a huge deal in the WotC suit.

So far 2-2 in my league. Any tips/changes I can make?

It's like half people trolling and half people in areas that legitimately have had their Warmachine groups fall apart or at least fracture.

The actual state of the game rules is better than it's been in years, don't let anyone tell you different. The core rules are rock solid, and the balance between each faction is closer than it has been in a long time, and is looking to improve with Will Pagani helping with playtesting, the Community Integrated Development system to catch unpredictable issues ahead of time, and the dynamic update system to quash problem areas that slipped through or to provide minor boosts to struggling models.

That isn't to say Mk3 is perfect, it had a very rocky start with the faction rules being leaked early and a core rulebook that desperately needed some proper proof reading. It would be easier if we could look at the first 6 months of Mk3 as the beta, but a lot of people can't let go by how much PP dropped the ball early on, despite the many improvements.

In faction balance also remains to be a major issue for some factions. While every faction can compete, there are a few that only have one or two list pairings that do well while the rest of the faction flounders, such as Cryx, Trollbloods, and Minions. This makes it extremely difficult for people who play those factions to have any optimism as it seems like everyone else has it better than them.

Warmachine is still very strong, and easily still holds the title of most popular miniature game after WH40K. The truth is that with all games, Warmachine's 'health' is completely irrelevant in that it could be very good or very bad, but what ultimately matters is your local meta. My local meta has seen a huge resurgence in the game, especially with the erattas earlier this year. I know that's not the same for everyone, which is the point.

Well yeah, if you, or someone else, is not willing to put the effort into your community it's going to fade. That would happen regardless of the existence of the PG program, communities live and die on the backs of a few dedicated individuals

My reply to this only got done when the other thread had locked. That pool should be a fine start as long as you aren't expecting to go to a national tournament and win. An honest assessment of the models is that the Eliminators and Juggernaut are great, the Decimator is overcosted when compared with other options and doesn't jive well with Kozlov's kit, ManO'War Shock Troops shine pretty well with Kozlov specifically, and the Mad Dog and Manhunter are pretty overcosted for what they bring most of the time. Using your list as a core I'd try this if you insist on running all of what you have now.
conflictchamber.com/#b31bf-7o0d0deX9vbR8G7Qgd8n8qdi86

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Kozlov 1) Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad [+28]
- Decimator [16]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Mad Dog [9]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4]
Great Bears of the Gallowswood [9]
Kayazy Eliminators [5]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Manhunter [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]
Iron Fang Kovnik [4]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]

If you have some cash for a list more tailored to Kozlov I'd try this.
conflictchamber.com/#b31bf-0d0d7t9vbR7H7I7Qgddi8q8G86

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Kozlov 1) Lord Kozlov, Viscount of Scarsgrad [+28]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Marauder [10]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4]
Great Bears of the Gallowswood [9]
Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15]
- Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Iron Fang Kovnik [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]
Kayazy Eliminators [5]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]

Go to ground should give immunity:electricity.

C'mon, PP :^)

To explain some of the synergistic elements that the lists offer: Juggernauts are accurate, hard hitting, hard to kill, and cheap warjacks. Marauders are even cheaper warjacks that are weaponmasters against huge bases. ManO'War Shocktroopers with their UA are fantastic zone holders, and with the ManO'War Kovnik and Tactical Supremacy they can Shield Wall and move 9" in a turn (or 11" if Kozlov feats). They are also good targets for Fury. Great Bears are can openers that benefit from either Tac Sup or Fury and the Iron Fang Kovnik makes them Steady and Tough. Sylys helps Kozlov with his many upkeeps. If you're not a fan of the unit of Iron Fangs as another relatively fast jamming unit that hits hard try swapping in another Juggernaut or Marauder and another unit of Eliminators, or some Widowmakers for ranged presence. Kozlov can get work out of a lot of things.

...

Gamedesign-wise everything they do so far seems an improvement in a step back - two steps forward way.
But somehow they manage to make it seem like they fuck up everything.

I can second your feelings, and add that I've had a particularly salty fellow refuse to let me see his list or damage boxes in Warroom during a casual game before. Even without shitty sportsmanship, tablets make people clingier by nature.

Don't play with people like that?

Wmh is the only game I prefer with 2d terrain, honestly. The measurements are too precise

Doesn't make sense from a logical perspective and doesn't actually solve the balance issue.

What manner of shitposter UA are you getting that recursion from?

Hang in there spengebub

I prefer 2D terrain because I'm tired of having to deal with fat fucks accidentally bumping the 50ft table and knocking your precariously-balanced model over, messing up his placement.

Can any PoM player can comment on how good Pyrrhus is? He seems a bit expensive

You don't choose your opponent in a tourney

>the joke

>your head

Can someone explain if they fixed throws in some errata?

Previous, I remember being able to get around rolling to hit by throwing directly away from me targeting a point barely behind the target. So if I was the exact throw distance away, the target gets knocked down.

Does that still work? And "directly away" from me doesn't specify a direction, right? (aka, I could throw the model behind me?)

They fixed throws by making it so you can no longer throw your own models.

Oh okay. But everything else is still possible?

Yup

>"working as intended"

To be fair this is not something that came from PP's design team, it was from a forum mod who only had authorization to tell people what the rules are as they are. He shouldn't have said 'working as intended', but that quote clearly didn't reflect PP's opinion, and it was really fucking stupid to get riled up over it.

>It feels a lot like they're trying to silence the growing discontent amongst the fanbase.

In reality, they're probably just dropping the volunteers that help moderate those parts of the forum.

So where's the link to the post where the infernal admitted that he made the judgement without checking with the designers? The judgement that sat "checking" for days before it was finally answered?
This claim sounds like apologist bullshit.

>This claim sounds like apologist bullshit.

And your post sounds like ignorant twaddle.

Infernals don't deliver information on whether things are being errata'd or whether things are functioning as intended. They clarify what the rules, as they are on the page, state. "Working as intended" or "won't be errata'd" are not something Infernals should ever really say, as they don't have access to the information.

What do you think "checking" means, dipshit? I'll give you a hint, it's not "reading all the rules again".

You can't throw model behind you.

>In reality, they're probably just dropping the volunteers that help moderate those parts of the forum.
They interviewe some PP guy and he said forums were shut down because of negativity.
youtube.com/watch?v=84PPDEe4TaM&feature=youtu.be
They literally got too butthurt.

There was a post in the CID forum that basically confirms this.

>Online communities are notoriously toxic and nasty to deal with. This is partially because humans are naturally more motivated to complain about things they don’t like than they are to praise the things that they enjoy. It is further compounded by what is known as the online disinhibition effect (the abandonment of social restrictions and inhibitions found in normal face-to-face communication when using remote electronic communications). The anonymity provided by the Internet makes it very easy to dehumanize and disrespect people who are not in the room with you. It is easy to forget that the “the*y”—often used in a condescending manner—is actually referring to real people, most of whom are sharing an office while we read your feedback.

>For the protection of PP staff members and the overall health of the community, there is a zero tolerance policy regarding toxic behavior on the CID forum. You may be entitled to an opinion but you do not have the right to verbally abuse other people. On these forums you are required to be respectful and constructive. Acceptable behavior on the CID forum is strictly moderated and anyone who breaks the Terms of Service can be banned without warning.