/hwg/ - Historical Wargames General

So I have painted up some Italian paras.
3 guys that look like officer types
14 SMG dudes
8 rifle manz
3 MG dudes
A spaghettiwerfer
A sniper team
And a light mortar team

I want to run a 500pts platoon. What do?

I want to take a Vet 2nd Lt with one man

1st squad with SMG leader, MG, 3 SMG dudes, one rifle dude.

2nd squad identical.

And I end up with ~390ish points, what do I do next?

Which system? I assume BA, but you might wish to confirm/clarify

Yeah, BA, sorry for not qualifying. BA2, though I haven't read the new rulebook yet.

It's pretty much inevitable that I'll end up getting both sides so there's no worries there. I think 80 models per unit might get a bit much despite the looks, so 24-36 on a 60x30 seems reasonable. I think that's what's going on in the image related here so yeah I can live with that.

Any personal recommendations other than Baccus that anyone would make for late medieval? Are Irregular miniatures as bad as their website design or is it one of those classic mismatches?

What /hwg/ blogs do you like?

Tinytanks (gorgeous 3mm/6mm)
Silver Whistle (amazing WW2 minis and scenery)
Dressing The Lines (NZ stuff, nice minis)
Ashrams House Of War (all sorts, lots of ACW and Napoleonic)
League Of Augsburg (stunning 17th-C stuff)

>Are Irregular miniatures as bad as their website design or is it one of those classic mismatches?
The best description I've heard of Irregular is that they're cheap and paint up nicely.

They're not very good, but they... are fairly cheap. And once you get some paint on them, they're OK. The company itself is fine to deal with, nice people IIRC.

Rabbits in my Basement (moderns and a bit of everything)
Charge Blog (moderns, also /ourguy/)
Jacksarge (dank painting)

Hey ASLMinisanon!

guess what we did at our meeting yesterday?

youtu.be/9MewkWWOcaQ

Audio is a bit crappy due to acoustics and ambient noise in the area. but hope this give you some inspiration.

guys has done something i have never seen before. he doesn't use standard ASL counters. he copies and prints both sides of the counters on a standard sheet of paper and then affixes those to a thin sheet of magnet. Keeps the stacks nice and neat. he also has small magnets in the base of each one of his hexes allowing the stacks to stay in the hex the are in and not get knocked over

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Does Weird War II belong here? It looks neat.

If there's no /awg/ up, and you're lucky and people aren't dicks about it, but it's mostly an /awg/ deal.

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not really, try /awg/

Nah, once you start adding sci-fi fantasy elements /awg/ is a better fit

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Thanks, guys

>Charge Blog (moderns, also /ourguy/)

You guys....

Hope you are all enjoying the content, anything else people are wanting to see?

So /hwg/ i always like the OP posts for their significance, and this one is no exception. A few threads back i saw something about the spanish american war, and being a roosevelt fan and an amateur historian, i started looking into it a lot more, especially to see if there were any neat scenarios i could bring up for my local /hwg/ community to play through as an event.

What i found was this:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Guam

Now it wouldnt make a good scenario, but it got me thinking. Are there any wargames that deal with a morale or deception factor? I know in *some* rulesets of firefight/skirmish games you cant kill the indigs until they "show threat" by attacking. Is there a game where cunning and timing matter more than crunch and mathmatically superior units?

Anything appreciated, even if its just more silly historical instances, but especially if its on topic.

What game is this, looks fun. Im new to this whole historical action by the way, and the closest I have seen to its like, was a game released based on WHFB years back (cant remember its name though, but was always sad I missed the opportunity to play it).

Those are just models, could be used for several games.

How bad would someone freak out if I painted one or two of my Volksgrenadiers with the WWI German helmet camo? I just love how it looks and I'd like to try painting it.

The unit you're looking for is Volkssturm, I could imagine some granpas brandishing their old helmets from the Great War.

No, I meant Volksgrenadiers. I have some late-war German grenadiers I need to paint for Bolt Action.

Then I'd say don't do it.

But I can't prevent you from doing it. So...eh.

>Then I'd say don't do it.

Yeah.Volkssturm OK, Volksgranadiers no

Just get some WW1 guys if you really want to paint 1918

Combat Commander vs Company of Heros

Which one is better?

define 'better'

If I already have CoH is there a reason to also buy CC?

are you certain these are the titles you intend to compare? Company of Heroes the video game and Combat Commander the board game?

Aw crap... You made me remember why I never got in to Historical wargames...

Hey /hwg/,
I've got a question for you.
I spent today looking through the Vallejo Model Color chart and tried to find the right kind of grey/brown for a colorscheme.
However the differences in color in that range are very slight and on one of my monitors it has a greenish tint. Trying to find good examples of the paints via google is also problematic, cause apparently nobody uses the white balance on their cameras.

Anyway how do you go about picking the right colors, if you can't pick them out in person in a brick and mortar store?
I don't want to buy a whole bunch of colors I'm not gonna use (mainly because I'm trying to get back into this after 7 years and most of my old paints have dried out. So I'll be spending a lot on paints anyway)

But having models that can be used in multiple systems is an objective advantage.

>Anyway how do you go about picking the right colors, if you can't pick them out in person in a brick and mortar store?

I try and google image search for a photo of the actual pot itself. I use a lot of vallejo so it works most of the time.

If it turns out to not be quite the right shade I just mix.

Shit, meant Conflict of Heros

wat

Not him but it is a known problem that there's a shitload of options but for the most part very little guidance or unity on where to begin. It's not like GW where anyone can walk in to a store and find that X units are for Y force in Z game and just work within strict, yet easy guidelines like that.

With historicals... well lets go with something pretty easy access like Hail Caesar. Single book, army lists included, cross-era play .. well there's already a bump. Cross-era play isn't something people generally expect if they're new. I mean, it makes sense to see Romans and Gauls, Not Romans, Gauls, Medieval French and so on all in the same book (especially with a title like Hail Caesar). Then there's getting to miniatures and ok Warlord is there providing starter sets and everything, but even within the book there's a bunch of companies stuff on show, not all of which can be got through Warlord's storefront. Especially when getting into things outside of 28mm. Or having to worry about which type of Romans are suitable.

It can be a bit overwhelming if you're not getting guided through it all.

Whats the best vallejo paint for french indochina war paratroopers?
The only online guide uses gw paints
youtube.com/watch?v=jHx6Je3UxI8

>What color is feldgrau?

There's no truly correct color, especially for preindustrial soldiers. Consider scale effects, weathering, fading, dye lots, fabric blends etc.

of the 2 I prefer Conflict of Heroes. Im not a fan of the card driven system for the command and control in combat command.

maps are bigger in CoH. and I think that it does armor better as well. also, there is a solo system released for CoH

It's not so much that I want a perfect match for a specific uniform, I just want to know what the colors I buy look like.

I appreciate the input though.

Theres a very bare-bones guide here (scroll down) elhiem.co.uk/page_3038893.html

The tutorial isn't great but the results are nice.

Where is this miniature from? GIS gives no result?

God damn I am beyond jealous, my own project has fallen on the back burner for other ones lately and I think I need to rethink a lot of how I was making stuff but damn this is truly impressive and Im glad people who truly love the game get to play like this

Is Spectre Operations, as a current setting, /hwg/ due to it's realistic nature, or /awg/?

/hwg/ includes present day (and non-SF near future, if you ask me)

Good.
I just ordered some Task Force Operators. Planning on getting Spetsnaz GRU as OPFOR later. What am I in for?

Checking my interpretation of the Bolt Action rules: Because exceptional damage kills the gunner and destroys the gun of an artillery unit, and because snipers always deal exceptional damage, snipers can kill an entire artillery unit with a single kill, right?

>Are there any wargames that deal with a morale or deception factor?

Tons of them, but they're mostly hex & chit types. The use of dummy markers is one way many such games model deception. I've bluffed opponents many many times with dummy markers.

Morale is part of many hex & chit games too. How works in SPI's PRESTAGS series is pretty common. Each side would have "shaken" and "routed" levels linked to unit losses. Once the 1st level was reached it was harder to get your units to move into contact with the enemy. Once the 2nd level was reached, your army had to retreat and it's could only defend themselves.

"Patton's Best" by AH had a nifty sighting mechanism. Every German artillery piece placed on the board was an 88mm UNTIL identified, every tank was a Tiger again UNTIL identified, and, until ID'd, both fought as if they WERE an 88 or Tiger.. The US player thus couldn't ignore units. It was worth getting an ID if only to lessen the threat the new units posed.

Yup. Trick is to stop them getting the shot.

Not artillery units no. However it kills teams like no ones business

How dangerous is relying on Fireteams in Bolt Action? I'm playing as the Finns, and I'm noticing if I go for squads closer to my maximum, they fold because Soviet and other enemy squads are usually bigger, 11-12 men. I'm considering basing my army around 6 man teams to maximize the number of LMGs. Is that a good route? We're playing 2nd edition btw

That's from Valkiria Miniatures, they're doing a 70mm line based on Bartek's illustrations.

>52625563
>52625563

Don't play the rules. Play the period. Unless you're playing a specific unit in a specific scenario where doctrine is ignored (and that scenario), then play what's correct for your doctrine.

Yes, it's usually mathematically better to have minimum sized teams to maximize LMG fire. You're going to be called a min-maxing beardy cunt for doing it, and very rightly so. If your faction's doctrine calls for 10-man squads with a 3-man LMG team, then you play 10-man squads with a 3-man LMG team, and learn to win with that.

Don't play a historical wargame if you're just going to ignore the history when it's inconvenient.

Mid 1400s, Burgundy versus Duchy of Savoy... good/interesting possible match up?

Looking into pitting them against someone other than Switzerland after that user last thread was on about Burgundy, and well they're in the area and it's not the juggernaut of France at least.

What in, Impetus?

Finland basically fought with whatever they had available, man. It was the Winter War.

>Don't play the rules. Play the period. Unless you're playing a specific unit in a specific scenario where doctrine is ignored (and that scenario), then play what's correct for your doctrine.
>Yes, it's usually mathematically better to have minimum sized teams to maximize LMG fire. You're going to be called a min-maxing beardy cunt for doing it, and very rightly so. If your faction's doctrine calls for 10-man squads with a 3-man LMG team, then you play 10-man squads with a 3-man LMG team, and learn to win with that.

Be very careful, user. The last poster who suggested that someone playing a historical war game should use historical OOBs and doctrine got shouted down for being autistic.

Fast gameplay, high speed deaths (a second hit to character kills them out right, more suppression than you can shake a stick at (except for professionals or elites who have a cap on how much suppression they take) and a fun game that's got a pretty lively community on facebook

>Finland basically fought with whatever they had available

They still had a formation doctrine, tho. There's always scenario play if you want to get away from that.

jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS3.htm

Assume the 1941 Rifle Company formation because it actually integrates SAWs with the squad, and you get:

Squad: 9 men in each squad:
-Corporal (rifle)
-8 men (light machinegun + submachinegun + 6 rifles)

If you're going to do a 1939-40 Winter War formation, full half your squads shouldn't have SAWs whatsoever. The Finn doctrine then was to have a platoon composed of a pair of 10-man squads armed with rifles and an SMG, and then they had a pair of short, 7-man SAW squads with a single SAW, a loader, and 5 guys with rifles.

So it's more, "feel free to have a single short squad with a SAW in it, but for each one of those, you should take a 10-man squad with no SAW in it at all." Because that's the actual history.

And yes, I agree with user that if you're going to ignore the history and doctrine of an established military force, then you may as well not play that force. If you want to ignore history in favor of winning and minmaxing lists, /40KGeneral/ is somewhere over thataway.

What about playing a list that encourages more fun gameplay?

then go play 40k or 100 STG44 lists like the other cheeselords

Fun gameplay and a historical list are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I feel like a 100 STG44 list is just as likely to actually be present on the battlefield as an "on paper" rifle platoon actually matching up to the reality. IE: 0% chance

It was clearly an exaggeration. Im not against doing something thats not entirely accurate to history, but simply making something because its cheesier/stronger just feels wrong and like you dont give a shit about historicals.

Sure with my ww2 stuff squad/platoon loadout isnt ideal and my paintjobs arent the most accurate but jesus if you just want to WAAC why play a historical game at all?

>It was clearly an exaggeration. Im not against doing something thats not entirely accurate to history, but simply making something because its cheesier/stronger just feels wrong and like you dont give a shit about historicals.

Watch out, user. They'll being calling autistic.

Ive been called an idiot for painting my ww2 minis the "wrong colours" germans grey instead of green/grey and using the m1943 uniform for americans which was notably a consistent colour of green which means I didnt care about history at all

nah thats reserved for people that demand you play scenarios with the exact OOB, exact soldier names, exact scenario layout and try the same tactics

>And yes, I agree with user that if you're going to ignore the history and doctrine of an established military force, then you may as well not play that force. If you want to ignore history in favor of winning and minmaxing lists

Mostly this.

My local Finn player consistently runs a 1K list consisting of something *very* close to:

Platoon 1
1st LT +1 guy
Jakaari Vet Squad 1 (NCO+5 men; all with SMGs and Skis, +2 Panzerfausts)
Jakaari Vet Squad 2 (see squad 1)
Regular Sniper
Regular Medium Mortar + Spotter
BA-20 Car
Reg Flamethrower w/skis

PLT 2
2nd LT+1 guy
Jakaari Vet Squad 3 (see squad 1)
Jakaari Vet Squad 4 (see squad 1)
Regular Sniper
Regular Medium Mortar + Spotter
BA-20 Car
Reg Flamethrower w/skis

...and refuses to play on anything but snow-covered terrain with lots of woods blocking LOS. It's certainly not a fun experience to play against. (Note, I'm probably off on the officers or some detail that makes the list illegal or something. But generally yeah, it's pretty close to this.) It also bears absolutely no resemblance to any even quasi-historical formation I can find any reference to whatsoever. It's made solely to exploit game rules. Jakaari pretty much never deployed en masse as a primary attacking force like this during the Winter War, ever (en masse light infantry deployment was the purview of the Sissi Battalions). Certainly never with this sort of support, and DEFINITELY never in conjunction with 2 of the 18 BA-20s captured from Russia. But hey, he wins a lot so it must be fine, right?

>which means I didnt care about history

Come on, man. There's a middle ground between catering to the (sadly existent) button-counting turboautists, and not caring whatsoever about the history and doctrine of the faction you're playing. Not everything must devolve into extreme positions. Sure, have a short squad with more LMGs. Also have some squads that are historically accurate, even if it's not maximally effective.

>Come on, man.
You missed my point, Ive been the victim of the button counters in saying that my painting was wrong because its not how theyd do it

What you people don't understand is that your to far in to the Nerd, that you cannot see the problem when "common folk" comes along and wants to join in.

If you have an untold amount of game-systems out there, to combine with an infinite amount of miniatures (with different scale, time frame and with or without fantasy), the combinations are close to endless.
And close in the words of Douglas Adams, If you where to meet another player that has the same game as you, its just imagination.

I wont shy away that I hail from the era of GW´s prime time. A time when everyone actually believed what they said on the news, and there wasn't much else to pick from but GW in terms of miniature wargames. Boring, that may be, but at least you knew that everyone and their grandfather involved in this type of hobby, knew and owned models for a system everyone was playing!

In truth, historical miniatures (and especially the 15mm scale) has always looked awesome to me. But the fact still remains that I could just enough buy miniatures and write my own set of rules, and I would have the same chance of running in to someone who plays the same game, as if I where to pick one of the pre-written rules out there.
With this in mind, you really need a solid gaming group for it to work. A gang of 10 guys all going for the same system so to speak.

Oh well, my two cents on the matter. But hey, I´m not a historical wargamer guy to begin with to don't take my words to serious. Im just a newb with interest.

This guy gets it

Meant for

>You are the Finn guy, right?

Yes, and those people are the (sadly existent) button-counting turboautists. Every game in the history of ever has them, and they should be roundly ignored.

But just because they've taking an extreme position in "defense" of historical accuracy (and I say this loosely) doesn't mean it's OK to completely ignore the history in favor of listbuilding optimization either. Again, find the middle ground between the turboautists and the pure optimizers.

As an example, my Desert Rats (1 Batt, Rifle Brigade, 22nd Armoured Div) is *mostly*, but not completely, historical.

>2nd LT + radioman
>2" Light Mortar crew
>3 sections of 10 men each (NCO w/ SMG; Bren Gun+Loader, 8 Rifles)

This is a more or less historically accurate platoon. I leave out the Boyes AT Rifle because, well, it's frankly terrible. PIATs weren't around till 1943, so they're out too.

>Sniper Team
>6-pdr QF Anti-tank gun

These are battalion-level elements which were commonly attached to platoons or companies as needed, singly or en masse. Easily within the realm of possibility.

>Crusader Mk III tank w/6-pdr.

This were canonically assigned to the 1st RTR, which operated in conjunction with the Rifle Brigade during Operation Lightfoot. Tank platoons were often assigned to directly support infantry platoons, so we're still in the realm of possibility. Mostly, though, I just wanted a tank, and I love the Crud's look.

>Bren Carrier
>5 SAS Commados with SMGs & Vickers K.

This is just for fun. Sure, there were SAS in-theatre, but they wouldn't have operated in conjunction with this sort of engagement. But outflanking with a Bren Carrier, driving up on somebody, hosing them down with point-blank LMG fire, disembarking, and hosing them down again with SMG/Vickers fire is entirely too much fun.

So, clearly historically-derived, but with elements to, as put it, "encourage fun gameplay." One might call it a "middle ground".

You're missing the point, but then you want to miss the point. It's not an either/or situation. It's more nuanced than that and you know it.

There's a huge difference between the "painting nazis" and other "historical sperglords" and the gamers who call out those people like as being "min-maxing beardy cunts" for deliberately "gaming" army lists.

As NEA explains:
>There's a middle ground between catering to the (sadly existent) button-counting turboautists, and not caring whatsoever about the history and doctrine of the faction you're playing. Not everything must devolve into extreme positions.

Even "lite" games like Bolt Action have to pay lip service to history. If you feel historical OOBs and the like somehow limit your ability to play, Warhammer and plenty of other fantasy rules sets await.

Im not the finn guy, im just firmly in the middle. Like not caring about history at all is bullshit and just go play 40k if you wanna powergame, but also being a buttoncounting autist is horrible. If your germans are grey, your americans green and your aztecs dont have machine guns youll be fine

I just personally think 1 LMG per 5 finns is too much on the powergamey end of things

Hearts of Iron wargame when

Then ask for recommendations and don't just throw your hands in the air and act like an arrogant prick.

>your to far in to the Nerd

Be sure to insult us first before asking our advice.

We get it. You were stupid enough to drink GW's Kool Aid back in the day and still they're the only game in town for both minis and rules.

However, when you pull your head out of your ass take a stroll through all the links in the first two posts you deliberately ignored when posting.

Oh I wasn't insulting, as much as just telling you how it is from an bystanders perspective.

When you engage in a hobby that has X difficulty grading, and you're dedicated to the cause, you wont find it difficult at all after a time. Its when you go blind to its difficulty-rating, and assume everyone should be able to understand the basics, that you have become a nerd in the certain area. I am of course referring to the Nerd as a person completely absorbed by factor X. I am not, throwing feces at you here, assuming to know about your personal hygiene or if you wear glasses or not.

So before you assume to have been insulted, instead try to understand. I know this will be a difficult matter, as you failed to do so from the very beginning of this conversation. Assuming the obvious, that I could understand the mechanics of historical gaming, just the same as you.

>You were stupid enough to drink GW's Kool Aid back in the day and still they're the only game in town

Well, to be fair, 20 years back when your a teenager and sees something like a Lizardmen army for the first time, I wont lie, my jaw hit the floor! Having only played D&D before, this was a completely new level of dedication to a hobby for me. And when answered on my question what the funny little guys did (other than painting), to fight massive battles on the fields of war, my 13 year old brain exploded.

But the second part of your statement is far from truth, mainly as I am roaming this forum as we speak, but I also don't have.. how did you put it, have my head up my ass and knows a thing or two about the world around me and what is going on.



>Then ask for recommendations
>What game is that?

Bumping my BA2 question

I quite successfully made a river.

That looks great user.

I'd say make a full rifle squad and add an LMG as a long range support squad and use two SMG armed squads as assault troops.

I have no bloody idea if the setup is historically plausible, but ech.

If historicals have always looked interesting to you, then you already should have an interest in one or more periods. You also may well have an interest in a particular model scale. Once you're settled on these, the manufacturer and ruleset possibility space becomes much smaller and it's easier to find what you want.

Follow the old /hwg/ maxim;

> Pick a period
> Pick a scale

Sounds fun. I was tempted by the SWAT/Criminals starter, but I figured that only has limited use, scenario wise. I could probably have talked a few friends into giving it a shot, as we're all Payday players, but, ehh.
Time to try and talk people into it, then! What's a usual point size? The rulebook suggests 500; are there lower and upper limits for playability?

What's with the pig?