Why would anyone EVER pick a martial over a caster?

Would you rather be a Navy SEAL, or Steven Hawking? Who would you want on your side in a bar fight?

...

>Who would you want on your side in a bar fight?

Hawking. I might get my ass kicked, but the cops will hunt those fuckers down to the ninth layer of hell for even laying a finger on him.

Hit Points. Saving Throws. Magic Swords.

so they can not die to a stiff breeze I assume.

Is it me or has Veeky Forums turned into /v/?

I don't know why people insist like this is only a D&D problem, Is it because they've never played anything else? Other popular alternative systems have it way worse, you can literally end the word at level 0 with GURPs.

Do you fuckers forget that wizards aren't the only spellcasters?

I'm not sure why you mention 4e there. That's the only Wotc made D&D where the Martial/Caster thing isn't an issue.

Because it is. Breaking GURPS with spells is a lot harder than breaking it with powers or advantages, and even in Shadowrun, a mage throwing elementals every which way still isn't 100% obsoleting a street samurai and the street sam can actually handle himself for the whole game.

By making it into a tactical video game. Great job.

>caster: does sleight of hand tricks and hypnosis for minimum wage
>martial: bangs Afghani war brides, makes six figures contracting, does MMA and three-gun competitions

Martial everytiem.

because the people who make these threads are basing it off the ebin screencaps where everything is made up.

Apart that's fucking wrong, with a decent mastery of Shadowrun Its extremely easy to break the game with a mage, why the fuck did you think everybody abuses the fuck of sustaining Foci and Geas?

@52617139
Laziest attempt at a (You) I've seen all day.

WH40k RPG strikes a good balance there, I think.

Sure, Psykers are good, but they're also a massive liability. As it should be. Fuck up with magic, you cause massive harm to yourself, others, and the very fabric of reality.

I *wish* there had been a 4e tactical video game. The 3.x one was total shit. A 4e rpg on the DS with branching story paths could have been rad.

I didn't like how they did 4e (in my opinion they made it into a WOW ripoff) and that's why it's on there.
Because it's very easy for mages in D&D 3e and the newer editions to completely break the game in their favor. I've never had this problem in AD&D, which is why I've never gone pass 2E. Hell one of my favorite memories in AD&D is when a 3e faggot came in and thought he could he control the party, by force, because he was a level 10 wizard. Should of seen his fucking face when my fighter killed in him single segment to be fair though, I did have a vorpal sword.

It's weird how they most "video gamey" edition is still the only one that's never gotten a video game even remotely using its mechanics, 5e not withstanding since it's still ""new"".

>I didn't like how they did 4e and that's why it's on there.

Removing the tired Wow meme bit, your fibre to dislike 4e, but listing it here is still dumb because it's a martial/Caster thread, with is one of the few things that WASNT a problem with 4e.

I will admit, I'm on the wrong with that one. I shouldn't of put it on there, but too late change anything.

I'm fine just leaving it at that then.

>implying I don't pick both
Spellsword is the best class and archetype.

Thank you. I was excepting someone to keep arguing and insulting me for a personal opinion.I think I've grown more jaded the usual because of the internet

>more fun to play
>hitting shit with a sword is more fun than making the laws of the natural universe your bitch

No, what you have to realize is that these people get their kicks off the mere existence of this thread. They go to page 1 and Jack off to the fact that their thread is on it, and continues to be in it, because the retard machine that is Veeky Forums can't ignore bait, has to argue about everything, and in general spouts vitriol and bile over the stupidest shit because person A disagrees with person B.

The whole point of this thread is to Shit on D&D, because idiots like you and me can't ignore things we don't like.

Sage

Hawking, if hawking could stop time and drain all the moisture from your body with a thought

We're still a bit less angry than /v/

I enjoy playing my barbarian. I like the resource of always being able to resort to violence, and always being able to resort to violence *first*. It's a lot of fun because it works pretty well for a savage who obeys civilization's laws when she feels like it and relies on violence practically as a second nature.

Yeah, cus for Magic there is only one """explanation""" for how you did it. Magic.
For Swords, you can describe the action in any number of ways.

When a tactical video game stands head and shoulders above everything they made before or afterwards, maybe there's a problem.

If that's true how come nobody plays those """"""games"""""" btfo kiddo, btfo.

>Not fluffing your magic to be like one of the different schools.
>Not describing the fireball's roiling volatile fire curling around your hand, like you have a deathgrip on it, before launching itself, faster than it's own flames can keep up with, at an enemy, where it scorches and blackens their flesh, opening up cracks through which blood pours, before they finally keel over, charred and ashen.

Yeah. D&D Online's mechanics were much closer to 3.x than Neverwinter's were to 4e. Yet which one is remembered as the MMO edition?

In your dreams martialfag
>caster: in a position of power making six figures running a government due to their intellect and charisma.
>martial: sent to die in a war or come home to become a hobo who asks for change to fuel his alcohol addiction.

but just as shit and unfunny

Because being able to lift heavy shit doesn't mean shit if you don't have the intellect or charisma not to make yourself look like a fool in front of women.

>More fun to play
Yeah, because "hit shit" and "hit shit harder" will never get old after the first dozen times you do it.
>More powerful
Not when spells exist. Hell, magic missile is more powerful than any weapon in the game, simply because it's straight damage that most creatures won't be able to block unless they have very specific items.

You would pick a martial over a caster if your DM banned or changed spells on a whim, but handed out magic weapons and armor like candy, a type of DM I've too often had the misfortune of playing under.

Mah nigga!

But seriously, if magic is part of the world the "Martials" who don't know magic of their own will just die. There's no sense not to be a mage of some kind.

I weep for you sir. I truely do.

This. Market share is king, anyone who disagrees is welcome to head back to >>>r/rpg

Because it's cool.

Because the majority of people are casuals like you and can't be assed to learned anything other than muh d20, while at the same time trying to b e hip and complaining about d20.

You look cute in those robes, mageboy. Don't worry, I will protect you. Then maybe later you can... help me with my armor~

For one, the setting might not have any magic.

I like being limited in the scope of my abilities.

>wizard
>charisma
>points in social skills when there is Lore to learn
>wasting time with nations abd world domination when there are Mysteries to solve

You are the massive fuck up here, Sorcerer-kun. Maybe you should go use those extra spell slots to impress some small children? Seems about right for your level of intellect.

They're not playing D&D.

>(You)

>being such an insecure pussy about your DM that you need to play a full caster to have a good time

No user, you are the bitch.

I mean...it's not a video game. It's a game.

A tactical fighting game. Sans video.

Still the best version of D&D WotC has ever produced, but not the best version of D&D period.

>being able to lift heavy shit doesn't mean shit if you don't have the intellect or charisma not to make yourself look like a fool in front of women.
Being able to recite nonsense doesn't mean shit if you don't have the grace or stamina to actually please said women.

Women go for Conan, not Merlin.

Some people are born with more chromosomes than necessary.

>Im-fucking-plying
Ky Kiske is proof that you can be a paladin and not fall for banging the dragon (even though he still sort of needs to work on his parenting).

Why not just beat the Laws of the Universe literally with your bare hands and make them do what you want?

Or bard can seduce Laws of the Universe and marry them all at once. He probably will need some endurance training but we are talking about bard here. He is a professional.

>Yeah, because "hit shit" and "hit shit harder" will never get old after the first dozen times you do it.
Somehow it is not a problem in systems that care about doing combat right.

Muh nigga.
There's no sense for a martial not to take a magic initate feat at least to know a little bit of magic.

Dude. Thats projecting. Thats both projecting and sexist. Hell, there are plenty of dudes that mainly sweat looking like a fool in front of dudes.

Wait. You are baiting right? Cause that looks like bait son.

Tfw the op was being sarcastic and nobody got it.

This thread is never sarcastic. It's a shitpile stewed in bile and vitriol and constantly put on display because some idiot thinks it's funny.

Just martial so well it seems magical in nature

>4e
>having that problem

...

See and Shouldn't of, but did. Also, maybe you should find a better image then the one you used. Nobody likes watermarked images.

>Being able to recite nonsense doesn't mean shit if you don't have the grace or stamina to actually please said women.
Tell that to Danny Devito.

Just because you're stuck dividing yourself between being strong, fast, and enduring doesn't mean that I suffer from MAD as well.

Maybe stop projecting your problems onto me and worry about surviving the next campaign that I put into motion to fuel my next excursion to the underdark.

>Somehow it is not a problem in systems that care about doing combat right.
Even if the system has "depth" the most you're doing is "I hit" and "I hit harder" except maybe you cause a status effect or you hit two guys instead of one.

Meanwhile, I can cast one of dozens of spells and each one has a quantifiable effect on the battlefield beyond just dealing damage to X enemies at once, yet I can still do that without sacrificing my versatility.

>Nobody likes watermarked images.

Ok, I deserved that one.

>Why would anyone EVER pick a martial over a caster?
Look at TTRPGs as they are intended, not as they are often written. Imagine a land of swords and sorcery, where gigantic monsters roam the lands and cruel demigods reign arcane magic down on the populace. Imagine being the guy who just casually walks up to them and punches them in the face so hard the impact transcends space and time and crushes them before they ever even rose to power.

The problem is that TTRPG rules dictate that a lvl 1 fighter swings his sword really hard and a lvl 20 fighter swings his sword really really really hard, while a lvl 1 wizard throws fireballs around and a lvl 20 wizard can summon legions of angels and be above the laws of physics and logic. A lvl 20 fighter should be more than that, by that time he should be a veritable challenge to the gods themselves. A level 20 fighter should be someone like Goku or One Punch Man.

What's not awesome about that?

>Should be someone like Goku or One Punch Man
>Should be
>They aren't
I mean, it is pandering to geeks for a power trip, but it makes a bit of sense when you remember that humans got to where we are because of intelligence and communication over brute strength. Endurance hunting didn't hurt either. In realistic settings strength is linear and intelligence isn't.

High fantasy isn't realistic
Any setting with magic isn't realistic

>but it makes a bit of sense when you remember that humans got to where we are because of intelligence and communication over brute strength.
If you're going down that route, then there shouldn't be a split between magic and mundane in the first place. Every PC should be magical, and magic should simply have different means of manifesting itself. The arcane and divine schools of magic should be joined by perhaps a "ki" school of magic, which does not seek to master an energy granted by an outside source like the gods or the powers cosmic, but instead draws them from within humans themselves. This would result in warriors who can literally punch an enemy until he explodes, scream poison away and escape magical bonds purely by wanting it hard enough.

But that's "too anime" for a lot of people, even if Wuxia predates anime.

Yet in most settings, the dude who is clever, capable of making friends, and is willing to push themselves beyond their limitations are the ones who end up becoming the main character while the guy who focused on brute strength jobs to the biggest threat just to sell how badass the BBEG is.

Because i enjoy it

>clever, capable of making friends, and is willing to push themselves beyond their limitations

None of that is caster specific though. In fact the clever, charismatic hero is more often than not a swordsman.

In 3.5e, possibly the most unbalanced of RPGs, dedicated martials are horribly starved for skill points and suffer from extreme MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency, ie. the need to have high points in multiple skills), which means that INT and CHA are often the only stats they can truly afford to dump. Guess what two stats are the most important for making friends?

That description, in 3.5e terms, fits the bard more than the fighter. And given the right feats, prestige classes and alternative class features bards can give all but the cheesiest wizards and clerics a run for their money and simultaneously invalidate fighters and rogues.

Yeah, 3.5 sucks.

>Fighters have the best saves across the board
Why did they get such shitty ones in 3.PF then? Good fort save, weak reflex and will is like the worst combination and doesn't equate to what they had before at all.

becuase everything is clear in hindsight and the guys making it thought they were making everyone as 'balanced as possible'.

Then math happened, then common sense and now everyone with emotional maturity greater then a 9 year old realizes "wait, people who can't cast spells can only do one thing really shitily, while people who can cast spells can do everything well, and do the not caster guy's thing better then him, so why have one when you can have the other?"

>None of that is caster specific though. In fact the clever, charismatic hero is more often than not a swordsman.
The clever, charismatic hero also has access to magic, so he might as well be a Bard or Sorcerer in most cases.

The counterargument to this is often that the fighter can be made as strong as he needs to be with buffs from casters. The thing is that wizards and clerics would be better off casting these spells on another cleric, another druid or themselves. Especially the cleric who, through heavy armor proficiency and just one spell (divine power) can become objectively superior to any fighter. But we shouldn't underestimate the druid, whose animal companion alone is roughly the equivalent of a fighter.

To the people who think nobody should ever play martials, do you think they should just forcibly remove martial classes from the game or make them NPC-only?

>from the game
*from all games with magic

>becuase everything is clear in hindsight and the guys making it thought they were making everyone as 'balanced as possible'.

>Gives most martials shit will saves across the board
>Have most SoL/SoD abilities that target Will.
>Have most SoL/SoD spells that target Will.
>Have Fort be relegated to shit that most players will be able to survive anyways due to having shitloads of HP.

This goes beyond a mathematical issue, this goes straight into full retard territory.

I think you missed his point, he's insulting martials. He said OD&D tried to be balanced, but then the mature intellectuals who impress all the ladies with their classy fedoras realized balance is stupid and went for "realism" in 3.pf by making the fighters as shitty as possible.

Someone post that strawman comic where the nerd gets beaten up by the football player and then goes and plays D&D where the GM talks about how his wizard beat the brooding monster, proving that brain beats brawn. It seems apropos for this thread.

The closest thing I can think of is Fire Emblem, but even then.

The cool thing about 4e was that it had also influence from card games which meant that you could do all sort of cool combos with powers or with teammates and stuff.

Goddamnit I wanna start a /4eg/ thread now, they're great even if they're really autistic.

LOL, Mages in GURPs rarely got a spell off in combat and combat spells kind of suck. Now out of combat the mind magic rules. Never play the new ed but ever caster I played with used a gun/sword/bow. One: due to the fact you stand there casting and one hit ended the spell before it goes off you got it off. Two: GRUP system means you could be good at both arms and magic.

You know, I never thought of describing the Gears as Dragons but that analogy fits very well