Warhammer 40,000 General /40kg/

Thanks lads, I was hoping to use them to fill out the last 50 points in a list.

i hope soon user, for both loyalist and traitor's sake.

auto cannons should at least be able to kill space marines...

Not very good but not bad*

Expect them to shave wounds off monsters, snipe out the odd special weapon and make nervous biker squads jink but they won't amaze you.

Not bad for 50 points.

It's going to be fun sweeping marines away with heavy bolters.

Would a cyber-augmented guard be a good addition fluff and crunch wise to for my Ad Mech?

I am a newer player and have a Tech-Priest Dominus, 2 Onager Dunecrawler, a Sydonian Dragoon, ten Skitarii Rangers and ten Skitarii Vanguard.

I still really enjoy the Ad Mech fluff but their army structure and double codex design really suck for me.

My plan is to use the twenty Necron warriors + five Necron Immortals to augment the troopers from two of the Start Collecting Astra Militarums. Just an Arm/Hand/Leg here and there.

I already have two Chimeras from trading off other parts of what I had for Necrons.

No one plays IG at my shop so I havent a good reference to the size difference but I could always shave down necron parts to be a bit more fitting.

>for both loyalist and traitor's sake.
But they would be the ones most fucked over by it.
They pay a ton of points on their basic troops for 3+ armour, huge rend values makes that even more of a joke.

Think of the terminators and mega nobs reduced to 4+ saves...

>implying heavy bolters will ever be good
user, hope is the first step in the road to disappointment

Please post these when you're done if you end up going through with it.

I can't say whether or not it would be wise or fluff accurate, but damn would it look cool.

I really hope AP 4 stuff only becomes a -1 rend. As points out, that effectively sticks them with guard armor. If they're sitting in cover, that's what they'd get anyway most of the time.

A -1 is reasonable for something just shy of getting past a 3+ save, and will do its job against 4+ armor about as well (leaves them with a 5+, so if they're standing in a forest there's no change)

-2 should be reserved for things like plasma.

Look I know there are Tau haters(seems like everything but orks have haters in 40k) however, I do want to know about certain etiquette between players as a Tau player. Played a 2v2 2000 per person game earlier. Eldar player and my ally wanted to bring in LOWs so we agreed upon one LOW per team(I don't have a LOW and the 4th guy did have one but I told him no simply because I do not have one). The list was Eldar(running a wraith knight, lord, guards, and etc in some super nasty formation) and the other guy was playing some random blood angels formation guaranteeing some bloodthirster from nowhere(he had some big assault flyer thing and vindicator aside from a ton of terminators). We are 2 Tau. My army was mostly infantry but I did run optimized stealth cadre(ghostkeel), riptide, and 1 hammerhead. No other vehicles and a ton of infantry(had some ballin kroot do work to a flyer) and suits. My ally had a stormsurge, 1 riptide, gunrig, gunwall, drone net formation. We both ran hunter cadres as well. I mention all of this cause the BA player got wrecked so hard that he got pissed off and calling cheese everywhere around turn 3. I do want to point out that most of their army was in reserves and could not come out till turn 3 due to some bad rolls from both of them from their reserves pools. The BA player was almost tabled but the eldar player was just fine(wraith knights and lords are super hard to kill and guard d weapons are nasty).
Anyways, BA player begins to complain. States that he should've been allowed to bring in a 500 point imperial knight that it would've been far more fair. I am still trying to wrap my head around this. Do you guys feel we were cheesing too hard despite the terms that were agreed upon before this 4k game? I need clarity!

Sorry for the long post but it was kinda annoying me earlier.

Sure will, I am probably going to pick up the IG Start Collecting in a week or so but hopefully can find a picture comparison of an IG Veteran and a Necron Warrior.

I've found the height measurments but I am more interested in dimensions and distance of joints.

Ap4 = -1
Ap3 = -2
Ap2 = -3
Ap1 = -4

What's their band name again?

I.. Might have a commissar somewhere if that helps at all, although I think he's a bit skinnier.

>AP4 = -1
>AP 3/2 = -2
>AP 1 = -3

Fixed.

Half the problem with the game is how easily armor saves get ignored despite being so overvalued. There's nothing wrong with having 2+ saves still get a 5+ save against meltaguns. Most things with 2+ armor have invuln saves anyway, and 5+ cover is easy to get.

A -3 as the highest would still do everything you need it to. Unless you want to complain that MANZ really don't deserve that 5+

Tau are one of, if not the, most aggravating armies in the game to play against. They aren't necessarily as powerful as Eldar, but at least Eldar usually come close enough that you can try to fight back. When a Tau army works, it shuts the other player completely out of the game by shooting them down before they can even hope to retaliate.

People are going to complain when they play against you, because your army is designed to stop them from having fun. The exact circumstances will vary from game to game, but it's something you're going to have to get used to. Tau aren't enjoyable to play against.

>BA
>bloodthirster
????

Knights aren't that good, they're paper tigers, stealth cadre will wreck them ezpz.
Sounds like he got mad because you refused to let him bring what he wanted and then humiliated him.

Agreed. Sounds like you were a colossal dick. Then again you DO play Tau

What's the point in shelling out for ap2 weapons if they have no benefit then?
What if I want a weapon that can reliably take out power armour?

Hate that the game has so much ap2, don't hate the mechanics that make ap2 worthwhile.

Manz are already pretty shit, too late to take them in to consideration.

Blood Angels might be marines, but they aren't on the same level as the vanilla codex. He was a mid-tier army next to a top-tier one against two top-tier armies.

You did use a lot of annoying formations and units, and I would argue that of all armies Tau needs formations the least.

Having two riptides and a stormsurge doesn't help matters, even if you agreed on only 1 superheavy per team.

Apocalypse is a wonky place, and it's harder to gauge what's fair to bring. Personally, I would have said to let him bring the knight anyway though.

>guard, tyranids and orkz getting armour saves against tau fire line
Yes please

Mon'keigh Business

SM players are just very whiny despite being way better off than most armies

>No benefit

There wouldn't be any real increased benefit if they were -3 instead of -2. Either they're in cover, in which case they'll use that 5+ save instead of the 6+, or they're not in cover, in which case they get a guard save instead of a t-shirt save.

Against marines in the open, it's still a great improvement. It just also means that marines standing in the open will be more worthwhile.

>What if I want a weapon that can reliably take out power armour?

Power armor is designed to be durable. It's the second best armor value in the game. It should be more reliable at letting things wearing it survive.

Honestly IG don't really do anything that the ad mech doesnt. I guess conscripts for tarpitting would be nice and maybe a flier, if the IG fliers are any good.
Fluff wise I know it's only legal for IG to fight under the command of the ad mech if the IG senior command staff are dead. I think in one of the books a tech priest kills the colonel to take over an IG regiment.

I do know that the ad mech have an unhealthy obsession with Necrons because they're archeotech, so you might do something cool there with the ad mech having accidentally woken up the necrons.

it's a cool idea though, if you do it make sure to post the models.

I mean, the alternative is to make bolters, pulse rifles, gauss weapons, etc. all -1, but that just makes things with high armor saves even more worthless. Marines wouldn't even be able to stand up to their own guns at that point

Assuming you didn't misrepresent anything, not too sure about that bthirster thing

>There wouldn't be any real increased benefit if they were -3 instead of -2.
Other than cutting a space marines save chance in half? Reducing a 2+ to a 1/3 chance rather than a 1/2?

>Power armor is designed to be durable. It's the second best armor value in the game.
And ap2 weapons are designed to penetrate armour, it's the second best AP value in the game. It should be more reliable at stopping things hit by it survive.

>implying space Marines loyalists won't get reinforced power armour to ignore rend -1
>csm will only get that with chosen units and HQ only

honestly though, stuff dying faster is fine as long as everything dies equally fast. im ok with the game taking only an hour to play so long as there aren't any stupidly survivable things on the board.

>tfw you spend a week building a new 1000pt army and table your opponent

What army?

> so long as there aren't any stupidly survivable things on the board
>2d6 3+ terminators

get ready, user.

It's only heavy armor that loses out, horde armies are completely unaffected.

Pic related

Going to start painting this week.

yeah I was confused about the bloodthirster but I let it happen since dude didnt have much on the board. It got shot down by 2 riptides and kroot lol. FYI he summoned it in the psychic phase(it wasn't on the board at the beginning of the game).
I get what you are saying but I am failing to see why this is an issue still considering the point value. There was nothing overtly cheese on the board. They still had plenty on strong units on the board.. They still had quite a few baddies including Dante the douchelord who wrecked my allies commander with fusion blades. Why should I have let him bring the knight? We originally had agreed upon 1 LOW. I played 2-3 games against LOWs and I always get wrecked because I don't have one.
I feel like its all a rock paper scissors type of system. I have never beaten space wolves and I have won 1 time against Chaos so far. Dark Angels are unreal. In one game some guy got a ton of free rhinos. It was like him having 500 points for free. How does one compare to that as tau? riptide wing? lol
thanks for proving my initial point. Not even close to WAAC playing here.

Alright, so you give it a -3. Now terminators save on a 5+ (they do this anyway) and any marines that aren't in at least 5+ cover have a t-shirt save.

So really, with a -3, all this massive shift has accomplished is making marines easier to kill, because now high-volume weapons like heavy bolters bring them down to a carapace save.

Those with lower saves get a general improvement because now they get some saves against things that used to kill them, and anything better than AP 4 loses little when trying to kill those high armor targets.

I do feel like it would make more sense to improve everyone's survivability here by making AP generally less punishing. Having plasma be a -2 means people aren't going to have to hug cover as tightly.

>There was nothing overtly cheese on the board.

Optimized Stealth Cadre and Riptides are cheese user.

>I always get wrecked because I don't have one.

Then you're bad. Optimized Stealth Cadre and a Riptide should be plenty for taking out lords of war if you're smart.

So here is what I am getting, it is ok for the enemy to bring whatever cheese but I should gimp my army and let them bring whatever they want simply because I am tau? Stupid, its not like the enemy is fielding just infantry. Rule of thumb is 1 riptide per thousand points and this game had 4 k points per side. Explain how in the world that is cheese considering what we were facing? Just seems incredibly unreasonable(and stupid) for me to purposely gimp my army especially when the enemy has brought their nastiness expecting the same. Explain your train of thought. Since it seems to be a very common train of thought for 40k players... "oh you have a riptide? so cheesy! well let me bring in magnus the red and oneshot your army since you have a riptide"

>no cheese
>Riptides
>Stealth Cadre
>lol his bloodthirster got shot to death by Riptides and Kroot
>But why do people hate Tau guiz?

Or

We...

Don't hand 2 ap2 weapons to every smuck in the game?
Nerf it all.

>Rule of thumb is 1 riptide per 1000 points

thoughts on this casual list?

>So it's not okay for us to bring maximum cheese with our two top-tier armies when fighting one top tier army and a mid-tier army?

Blood Angels aren't great. I'm explaining to you why he got blown away. If it was normal vanilla gravspam with any of their nonsense formations, he probably would have been fine. But he didn't and clearly wasn't.

Cheese is relative, and you getting all defensive and denying it isn't helping your case.

1 OSC and a 2 Riptides in a 4k match is not super cheese. Yes, it's cheese. But at that point level if you don't build a list to encounter them, you're either in denial or a retard. Tau shouldn't have to kneecap themselves in a large match so they don't hurt your feelings. What do you want him to run at 4k points? 3 Ethereals, a couple of Cadre Fireblades, 3 Squads of Kroot, 3 Vespid Squads, some Breacher teams a few sniper drone teams, and a few hammerheads/skyrays because anything that's not a vehicle and is bigger than a Stealth Suit is going to make you cry? Quit whining.

Gee, it's almost like a big unit was made to fight large units. The only difference between Kroot and other snipers is that they can take advantage of markerlights. They're still going to wound on a 4+ like any other sniper.

user, don't try to argue with them. You won't convince them otherwise. It's black and white with them. It sucks having to hide the fact that you enjoy a particular set of plastic army men that, outside of everyone control, ended up getting some broken rules just so you don't trigger some anti-Tau snowflakes while everyone else can discuss to their hearts content.

I've started building a nurgle army that consists of marines and renegade guard and I have a few questions cause I'm still pretty shit at this.
Hows this looking so far? Do I really need to have a HQ in my allied detachment? What do you think I should add and can you have two allied detachments cause I kinda want to add daemons to it

>Only difference between kroot and other snipers is that they get markerlights

Look, I have nothing against tau, and especially nothing against kroot (unless you're doing supporting fire conga-line cheese), but saying "all they get is the easiest force multiplier in the game" is kind of silly.

if armageddon shadow wars is anything to go by, AP 4 is going to be be rend -1

Just wanna know if Multilasers will have a save modifier. I love the HB Chimera turret, and want an excuse to run it.

This is a thing. I've also seen it on some houserule lists.

Getting defensive when only being called bad for the sake of offending me for not finding other ways for taking out lords of war. OK.. maybe you should've left out that point if you didn't want it to be addressed or approached it differently. I started playing in December and still getting used to stuff. I always thought the riptide wing was maximum cheese... not what I brought(FYI, I never got to actually use the OSC considering how poorly I deployed them and the fact that nothing was in range to take advantage of it the benefits).

I honestly now know that BA is not great. However, is it our fault since he was allowed to bring whatever he wanted aside from the one LOW since the slot was taken up by the Eldar player(the eldar player requested to use his over the imperial knight).
Riptides are the best unit in the Tau hands down but I feel like people make them to be way better than they are.

>just so you don't trigger some anti-Tau snowflakes

Dude, I play Tau. That doesn't mean I lack self-awareness.

That OSC for example. Why bring that? You certainly wouldn't need it against the Eldar player, since Eldar vehicles are more meh and it wouldn't help against the Wraithknight at all.

The only thing it would have helped with is bullying the Blood angels player and blowing up any of the fast tanks he decided to bring.

>But at that point level if you don't build a list to encounter them, you're either in denial or a retard.

And what options does the BA player have to counter 2 Riptides, a Ghostkeel, and a Stormsurge, aside from relying on the Eldar player to do all the work for him? Keep in mind he can't bring a Knight to try and level the playing field, despite the fact that 2 Riptides are nearly on par with a Stormsurge anyway.

So I think I wanna start a dark elder army...i know how terrible they are (never seem someone play thrm) but the models look fantastic and they are incredibly cheap.

Is there anything I should know about the army (other than "they suck")

What does the covers book offer?

>However, is it our fault since he was allowed to bring whatever he wanted aside from the one LOW?

>Is it our fault that I brought a bunch of formations and strong units against an Ork player? I mean, he could have taken anything he wanted!

The opponent being able to take anything they want means precisely jack shit if they don't have anything good to take.

Easiest force multiplier that while also being the army's main strength, is also their glaring weakness. Take out the markerlights and most Tau shooting becomes slightly more accurate than Orks and slightly worse than Guard (because after markerlights die they don't have Orders, namely things like Bring it down or FRFSRF). It seems like everyone forgets that markerlights can be killed before they go into a frothing rage about Tau.

Le Forced Meme

this

Never realised it was a houserule to take an extremely (though not as much as WK) underpriced GC in a 1000 point game.
I mean, in competitive lists I could see it, but as a general rule of thumb?.

The riptide isn't a GMC.

>Riptide
>GMC

That seems to be the case. I am trying to be as rational about this but it's almost like in many peoples minds that we are fielding these armies about blobs of infantry that are absolutely helpless.
I bring the OSC simply because it is a good formation regardless of there bring any vehicles. I never actually got the true benefit of it except in turn 2 only on my ghostkeel shooting at some marines that the BA player did a deepstrike on in front of the entire tau gunline. How is that bullying the BA player? I didn't know what he was bringing and he was allowed to bring whatever he wanted. BS+1 and ignores cover is great. The shooting rear armor is fantastic but I didn't even get to use it this game.
>And what options does the BA player have to counter 2 Riptides, a Ghostkeel, and a Stormsurge, aside from relying on the Eldar player to do all the work for him? Keep in mind he can't bring a Knight to try and level the playing field, despite the fact that 2 Riptides are nearly on par with a Stormsurge anyway. He can't bring in a knight because I don't have a LOW for fairness. Why should he have a LOW when I can't and it was agreed upon for only 1? If anything the Eldar player needs to deal with the SS with his unit which was breathing down the neck of the SS right before the store had to close. Once again he also was allowed to bring whatever he wanted. You keep treating it like its 1v1 but it was 2v2.

Feels like most of the frustration in this scenario is people forgetting that its 2v2 2k per player 1 LOW per side with no limit on anything else people wanted to bring in. I get BA are not as strong but considering what was brought on the Tau side, I really feel like it could've been much much more cheese.

>And what options does the BA player have to counter 2 Riptides, a Ghostkeel, and a Stormsurge, aside from relying on the Eldar player to do all the work for him?

Ally in some Eldar or Tau, duh.

I had a few tempestus dudes, I believe they're pretty close to veteran proportions. Hope this helps at all.

>Riptide GMC
haha oh wow

Don't use the allied detachment if you can avoid it: it has a lot of restrictions. Check which detachments and formations are available for the factions you want and see if one fits that you like

Some ass will tell you that you should use that forgeworld homebrew faction instead of IG

There is no limit on the number of formations or detachments you may field.

Give your marines some transports or they are going to spend the hole game walking around.

Consider the really awesome helbrute fomations - take 3 helbrutes and they can deep strike

>Riptide GMC

wow, these Anti-Tau snowflakes are getting more retarded by the day.

the tax spawn makes me giggle every time I see it

>all these shitters mad about being cucked by riptides
>"y-you should feel bad for using a perfectly legal option!"
Stay salty.

>I didn't know what he was bringing and he was allowed to bring whatever he wanted
>I really feel like it could've been much much more cheese.

You're still assuming that 'whatever he wanted' would have been enough, and that the fact that it wasn't 100% cheese excuses you entirely.

Nah, he should feel bad for bullying the obvious special-needs player who thought his Blood Angels could play in the big leagues

Fuck that guy for playing his favorite plastic army guys.

He should've chosen plastic army guys who are actually good.

I as well am a Tau player who is sick of my lists being called cheese for bringing any one thing that is slightly above average. I like fire warrior blocks and hammerheads, I dont even own a riptide, but for support I often bring an OSC. It doesn't matter at all what else is in your list. If you bring a cool, useful, fluffy formation to a game you're automatically WAAC. Shit is so lame

Ok sweet I'll work on that. I'm sussing out the detachments right now. Is combined arms just the one army or is it made up of multiple armies?
But yeah my plan is to use the FW rules I just couldn't find that in the army builder app I'm using but its roughly the same

>cool, useful, fluffy formation

I'm confused. What do any of those have to do with OSC?

Honestly hoping we get nerfed some in 8th, just so we don't need to constantly worry about accidentally being labeled as cheese or WAAC.

That is a fair point but I always made a point before I had a riptide or ghostkeel to let people know that my list was weak and to bring appropriate lists to at least make things fair(usually didn't matter cause most people resort to cheese). The eldar player knows us so he brought his nastiest list(he plays competitive fyi where nobody else in the game does). The BA player brought some formation but I dont remember what it was and brought once again some massive flyer, vindicator, bloodthirster, and a few other things that were nasty if their own right. It's not as if he himself was gimped whatsoever. His biggest problem is he failed reserved roles. Therefore whatever was on the field got blasted since some of his strongest units had to wait extra turns. He also had some very poorly placed las cannons and missiles that could never shoot anything and he didn't move them.
The guy complained that I had 2 MCs and tank on the board and a tank so I pointed to his MC(bloodthirster), vindicator(tank), and flyer. He then brought up the other army and I pointed the fact that he was allied himself and his ally brought in sufficient fire power. Granted I would rather have a riptide than a bloodthirster but try wrapping your head around that. Not even considering the other side of the board was Dante, a dreadnought, and a predator(not considering the rest of his army)

Where did the ghostkeel touch you user? Was it In your rear?

honestly, i don't consider most tau lists cheese, i just have yet to play against one that was actually a fun game. tau tactics all seem to revolve around making the game as unfun as possible for your opponent, so i just avoid playing tau.

I'm just wondering how anyone could consider a formation whose main benefit is just ignoring the position of things because 'lulz stealth means teleporting magic' as fluffy.

played a 4 player apoc game recently where the tau had the stormsurge formation plus a riptide wing, all four opponents truced to kill the tau stuff.

we didnt kill a single riptide, ghostkeel or stormsurge.

Have you ever played against a Tau player who fucked up and let you break his lines? If ANYTHING gets into CC with a fire warrior block, the block is dead. Wounded and swept almost automatically. It is honestly so frustrating. So good Tau players learn real fast not to let that happen

>losing units is frustrating.

yeah, this is how your opponent feels the whole game.

>losing is frustrating
I guess we should all just stop playing because somebody will always lose. GGWP all, we can go home

>mfw I started playing the game as 7th ed GK
Even though I own 3 armies now, every single model loss stings no matter what army I'm playing.

Anti tau faggots will never stop
Even if tau end up on the bottom theyll bitch about how they should be squatted cause they dont "FIT" in 40k

How?

This so much. Haters gonna hate

What's the best setup for a Deathwing Terminator squad?

a 'Combined Arms Detachment' or CAD, is one detachment, and it must be of all the same faction.

You can have as many detachments and formations as you want, with a different faction for each, so long as you fulfill the requirements for each.

Apparently it's the Tau's fault they suck at rolling dice, too. Or Tau have a hidden formation bonus of -4 to all to hit/wound rolls.
OR OR OR This is probably another hyperbole and they really only shot their big weapons at the big units and went for the smaller units with the basic infantry.