Be pally

>While that sounds heroic...

Being a LG pally isn't about compromise or doing the right thing only when it's convenient, user. It sounds like you've already fallen.

Attack the bbeg yourself of course.

>While that sounds heroic, I must point that he would probably knock me out again (I'm exactly at 1, just like the other PCs) and then kill them all to strife me.

That doesn't matter. You're a Paladin. You swore an oath to uphold certain ideals. When presented with two unacceptable options, you try for the third, even if the odds are nigh-impossible.

>you kill the kids then he kills your friend
or
>you kill friend he kills the kids
Begin Smiting Evil until death takes you. There is no other option for a warrior of God.

You're not the one killing the children, the blood is on his hands.

It's simple. We kill the badman!

Being a LG pally is about considering consequences through. Acting rash without thinking doesn't seen like good behavior.

I would prefer a third option that is, well, smarter and has less chance of resulting in a total party kill.

That's actually a good point. It's him killing not me. Of course my PC will be pissed, but then it's his sin not mine.

The children will live forever, innocent and loved, in the embrace of (insert God here) which your character should say to comfort said children before he tells the big bad to shove it right up his villainous ass. Remember that your character literally knows that his God exists and has his own demiplane for believers after death.

>Doing nothing to save innocents
>"Look at me guys, I'm still a true Paladin"

Have fun living in your fantasy world.

This guy has it right. A paladin cannot sit idly by while evil slaughters innocents in front of him!

Being a Paladin doesn't mean you have to win all the time, you know. It means you die on your feet, fighting.

Like, the only answer worth a spit is "Fuck you if you think I'm going to do that." Then you go for his throat.

OP, you asked. We answered. Stop trying to weasel out of it. You're a Paladin, you have your duty, do it or fall.

>Villain
Ugh.

Beg and grovel to have the villain take you instead, either as a slave or as a lamb to slaughter.

Sacrificing yourself is the way of the Paladin; you cannot ask your ally who did not take your path to make such a sacrifice, nor can you stand idilly by as innocent children or slain. Those that tell you to attack are short-sighted fools with too much pride for their calling.

Grovel. Beg. Throw your honor and glory onto the pyre for the sake of others.

Have you considered saying 'no' to the villain? No you won't let him kill the children nor will you kill your friend. What he's gonna do about it?

Are you stupid or something? The villain will just kill everyone then.

They tackle this one in OotS. Redcloak forcing a moral quandary on O'chul about him letting innocents die. O'chul states that he is powerless to stop Redcloak, but he is the one killing the innocents, not himself. He just has to endure it.

I believe the name of the particular strip is "endurance feat".

Also, if the DM tries using this as an excuse to make you fall, tell him no, if he insists punch him in the face. If he wanted to do a redemption storyline he could have asked your opinion first.

>jump into a situation and results in even more innocents being killed
Temperance is a paladin trait. The 'smite evil, charge! ops I fucked up' isn't.

I would surely attack the wizard if I knew a way that wouldn't result in him killing even more people.

That's... actually a pretty good. Thank you user. Time to swallow my pride.

>it's another GM thinks he's original by forcing the paladin to choose between killing one innocent child or 10 innocent adults episode

I hate re-runs. This shit got old 20 fucking years ago, but for some reason they still giggle to themselves like fucking school girls on prom night every time someone mentions he's gonna be playing a paladin.

I know you think forcing the paladin to fall is fun and all, but at least come up with a horse that hasn't been beaten to paste by now. Like making him interact with a demon that's been cursed to speak nothing but truth, or a ghoul that eats only undead, or a torture contraption that's systematically killing children which can only be stopped by channeling unholy energy inside a lock, and there's no necromancer or the like inside the party (I'm sure you can come up with a reason why they can't just leave and come back later with one), etc.

that won't save the children user. Offering yourself as a sacrifice is noble, but only if it is for the right reasons. You are there as the Fist of God, act like it. Since op claimed he was a villain, you cannot believe his word obviously. He has already captured you. Only option left is to fight. Fight with everything you have until evil lays beaten before you or you have finally met your end.

It's not about winning, it's about standing up for your principles.

The big bad already kicked the piss out of his whole party, they already said no, this is the result.

Let the villain do what he will. Playing into his foul machinations gives you zero guarantee that he won't simply kill you and the children. His damned soul simply grows blacker. If he kills the children and lets you live, you will serve justice to him even if you must trek to the hells themselves and back. If he kills the party, you died knowing you were a just and lawful servant of your God. The only winning move is to not play, because your powerlessness to change anything has already been demonstrated.

Personally, as soon as I am free I would try to kill the villain. As a Paladin.

Generally though, I would not play a paladin in the first place. Because GMs who put you in front of these kind of decisions just to make you fall are complete and utter pieces of shit.

No. Even if he lost already once he still has the duty to try to stop innocents dying. Just because of his odds of success are almost nothing doesn't change the burden on him to act morally.

>Fist of God
Not right now you aren't. Paladins must act prudently. Killing yourself in a heedless charge that only serves to anger the villain into killing you, your friend, and the children serves no purpose. A charismatic paladin should be able to argue that he is worth more either as a slave or a trophy mounted on the wall.

If you are strong enough to do good, then do it. If you are not, your brave actions are rash and worthless.

Standing up for your principles and resuming to choose gets no Good or Law done. In this situation what gets you to your end goal is stalling for time so that the rest of your party can help you kill big bad, this way you can save both the children and your friend.

No, that's just going to get the children killed.
The innocent and helpless must be protected, no matter the cost, and there is no greater offering to one who is evil and tyrannical than one who is just and good because it defies the justifications that the Evil one has made up for their own actions.

True, but that as long as he doesn't endanger more innocents.

You seem to forget that OP is a paladin, someone who knows his God exists. Death simply releases their souls to an everlasting paradise. His buddy on the other hand is not a paladin or a cleric (probably) so there's no guarantee of him getting into heaven. Really the only question is if the villain is going to torture the children or recruit them, at which point the right option is to kill his buddy to prevent suffering or the damnation of more souls.

You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness. There is nothing to be gained for the villain to agree with the paladin, because he already had the party captive. Say you agree to become their slave, what's to stop him from killing the party, the children and the paladin anyway? Nothing.

You are already bested and a prisoner of this vile mage. He can kill you whatever moment he so pleases. You cannot bargain, as you have nothing left to offer. Since you are already a prisoner. But being weak is no excuse from your duties. You are the ideal for others to strive for. Never surrendering to evil, even if you know you cannot win. Because opposing evil is the only good thing to do. Tiny daily evils, world-rending evils, the scale does not matter. You must face down evil, and either smite it or die trying.
>b-but being dead won't help them!
No it will not. But, by the virtue of your character, cannot sit idly by while evil has it's way with the innocent.

>your party can help you kill big bad
Exactly what I said, attack the villain and reject his proposition.

There's no innocence, only varying degrees of guilt. The villagers are guilty of being weak and captured by the villain. Guilty of watching their children being taken away and killed for amusement. The world doesn't revolve around the paladin, every single person in the area, from henchmen to parents will have as much blood on their hands as he will.

As such the paladin should only prioritize killing the villain himself regardless of how many will die in that village, because that will prevent him from re-enacting these sort of games in other situations, leading to even more deaths.

The party is trapped and will need some time to get to where you are.

I did not say negotiate. I said beg and grovel. Again, you refuse to let go of your foolish pride. You also seem to be ignoring the very real possibility that the villain can simply slaughter everyone regardless and will surely kill everyone if you attack him. You continue to choose certain defeat and loss over potentially saving others at the cost of your pride.

The end result is the same, not taking the villain's "deal".

>Not offering your life in exchange for theirs, even if it means fighting to let them escape

Sounds like you already fell

You've got to value the needs of the many over the needs of the few, which in this case is you. Self sacrifice nigga, since you're too chicken to try and take him out.

Pray tell how begging and groveling is going to stop the villain killing the kids? That's what he's threatening to do unless the paladin kills his friend. Do you think you're going to sway his mind by asking nicely?

Well when I play a pally I'm not a little twat.

Spit in his face and tell him you feel sorry for him..... then roll another character. You clearly blow dick at playing a character that knows his deity and receives his power from.

OP, you should become an hero

What is your wierd obsession with pride? Begging for mercy from one with no honor such as this will not save the children.

Attack him.
Die.
Tell the GM he's a faggot and you won't reroll a character.

>sacrifice yourself valiantly
>wizard chuckles, adds the memory to his mental spank bank
>kills or recruits the children
>fucks off to continue being evil perhaps forever

>don't play his stupid game, let the kids die
>work out, get SWOLE, serve justice eventually
>kids live forever in heaven

>kill your friend, repeat option one.

There is no way those children are getting away no matter what you do OP. Wizard is clearly pure evil, and wants to destroy your character, the kids dying is what will do the most damage no matter what.

I ask the gm if there is room enough to charge
If so I charging smite the fucker for triple the normal smite damage(which considering he's a level 12 paladin is an extra 36 damage.

Also I ask if the villain has physically or magically attacked me recently

If yes, multiply said damage(spiked gauntlet because even Paladins like to cast FIST) by 4 because of my enchanted from the god of retribution and luck.

If he survives taking 164(on average) holy damage spiked gauntlet to the face, let the true battle begin.

In all honesty, this, your GM is a giant fag

Argue as follows:
>you have a Good alignment
>thus you cannot take Evil actions
>thus the game mechanics prevent you from complying to the villain's demands
>thus the game mechanics absolve you from moral culpability
>thus you cannot fall even through inaction QED

Also just to be sure he gets the message across, beat him.

Pray tell, how will screaming DEUS VULT and ineffectually charging the villain save the children? For that matter, how will killing your friend save the children; as you said, you are all at the villain's mercy, and he can easily kill the children after you kill your friend.

You fail to understand that this entire scenario stems from the villain's desire to show their power over the paladin, the ability to control and taunt and taint them. For such a villain, the sight of a grovelling, crying, gnashing knight of goodness would be quite compelling and the promise of future torment risks being too good of an offer to ignore.

Is it a perfect plan? No, of course not; there's a very solid chance that, no matter the villain's claims or paladin's actions, no one except he leaves the town alive. It's better than a suicide charge though. From a meta-perspective, it also has some fun possibilities for drama, character growth, and campaign direction, more so than "I stab Bob's character"; I'm also imagining that, after a long period of abuse and the villain thinking the paladin has been broken, the paladin gigs him with the setting's equivalent to a +5 Holy Avenger dagger to the neck that a PC smuggled to him.

Faggot DM is trying to force a fall. Tell him to get fucked, attack the bbeg.

>attack the bbeg.
this, when you know your playing against a stacked deck sometimes the only winning move is to flip over the table.

Feel free to try out begging and groveling, but you're mistaken in imagining that it is a solution to the situation - it is not. It doesn't compel the villain to change his actions. After the groveling session nothing has changed. It might be fun to play out, but it doesn't resolve anything. It doesn't stop the villain from showing their power by killing whoever they please - in fact, it just makes it that much more satisfying to them. You can ask nicely first, but eventually the paladin has to take a stand and die trying.

It certainly is easy to repeat "it doesn't work" four different ways, but you haven't produced a better approach. All I've seen in this thread are good candidates for WWII Japanese fighter pilots.

Kamikazes still sank ships
The goal isn't to save the paladin, but to kill the bbeg

Perhaps his patron deity will grant him a miracle? More likely than a truly evil villain granting mercy because the paladin debased himself

Very well, let's say that after begging the villain still decides to kill the kids for his own amusement. Then you would agree that attacking him in a nigh futile attempt to stop him would be the right thing to do? (my stance is that it would be)

You misunderstand paladins on a core level. They aren't about living to fight another day, if it means turning their back on evil and injustice. It is their god-given duty to face down evil wherever they find it and destroy it, or die trying. Paladins are the ones holding the gates in a last stand so others can escape, or charging headlong into the dragon's flames to slay the beast. Live or die, it is by God's will. We are instruments of His will, and His will be done. If we live, our purpose isn't yet finished. If we perish, we ascend to our promised afterlife with our God. So in OP's asshole DM's senario, there is no downside to attempting to smite evil.

These. A man is responsible for his own actions. You aren't responsible if the villain kills your people. You are only responsible for killing HIM

best post

and are right.

Paladins don't choose when and where to uphold their oaths. You gotta kill the BBEG or die trying. It's the only way to possibly prevent the death of innocents and good characters. Paladins aren't meant to retire OP. They pick bigger and bigger fights and kill baddies until they die.

He's plot shielded :^)

Now make the binary choice.

When presented with two impossible choices the Paladin rejects both and goes for a third one. It sends a message, and that message is 'fuck you Dave you tool'

>all those dumbasses paladins
Reminds me of a game I played. A demon had captured our party and then announced that we had two options: do a quest for him or die. The retarded paladin shouted 'never!', rushed at him and was immediately cut down. Me and the rest of the good party played along, screwed his plan and then killed him after we recovered our strength.

Being a Paladin != Being a retard

Because it is a totally different situation.

If that's the case, then why do Paladins have such strength in their convictions that it gives them literal magic benefits if they're not fanatical enough to even default to them in difficult situations? Is a Paladin supposed to be faultless now, with an ability to devote themselves to a goal so thoroughly that it manifests as an inner strength, but can temporarily drop that goal because it's convinient?

If a Paladin goes through an impossible choice and chooses Evil where a Good option exists, I would make him Fall as GM. Granted, I'd make it far easier to attone if the only Good option was retarded, but this is exactly why the Fall mechanic exists.

Attack the bbeg.
If you die fighting BBEG and I was DM I'd consider letting you return as revenant.

BBEG is only going to betray you and kill everyone once you fall.

There is a difference between
>do something for me where there's a chance to fuck me over
>die

And
>become a murderer
>become a murderer

How is it different? Even a moron with half a brain can see you aren't supposed to kill him yet. It's the typical 'bad guy does an atrocity to establish he is evil'.

Knowingly working for an Evil being makes Paladin fall by RAW, so the player's hand was forced. He had to either suicide or have fun not having his class abilities for the next how many sessions, which sucks. Imagine if the party Wizard got to choose between dying and his spellcasting taken away, same situation.

>don't play
Oh so hard.

metagaming

OP, the wizard is clearly taking time to make you suffer, before killing the children anyway. Either that, or it's some sort of test of character.
Either way, do not do his bidding. There are a few options.
Debase yourself, make a fool of your character, beg him to release the innocents. However, since we're talking about an absolute arse, it probably won't work, and you'll just end up losing your dignity along with your life.
Insult him, and use your wit to turn every "lol ur screwed gud is dum)))) :DDDD XDD" against him. Possibly by insulting everything he holds dear in the process. At least you'd make a fool out of him. Oh, and add sarcasm. Make him drown in it.
Or, you could try to smite that knob as much as possible before biting it, and insult him in every way you know. That would be the noblest thing you could do, and would be what a true paladin would do.

Yes, trying to kill the BBEG is, in fact
>not play
ing

At the same time, any good GM will probably recognise that the Paladin and their god or code would be somewhat understanding, to the point where they're not 'exiled' with a permanent Fall, but rather punished with a temporary pseudo-Fall until the Paladin comes to term with, or convinces his God to change their mind on, his sin.

Falling is really a much better mechanic when the game master realises it's not necessarily just some binary 'lel u did something bad Fall forever' thing, it's very easily played-out as redeeming yourself for your actions or as a test from your God, and could be a short as a single two-hour scene of the Paladin proving his righteousness for letting the children die because the BBEG was 2stronk.

I mean don't do anything. The enemy is the one doing bad stuff and you are powerless to stop. Become strong and then stop him.

>if I don't kill a PC
Well- you can
-Pray for divine intervention as in freedom of your bonds to tackle BBEG to prevent him from harming anyone
-Do that without the deity/angel/archon showing up out of nowhere
-Nobly an hero by biting your tongue or some ohter suicide method to leave BBEGD flabbergasted
-Do your friend in because resurrection is a thing, though the BBEG may be in cahoots with Pazuzu
-Actually say pazuzu to fuck things up or Kostchie then roll a bluff to see if he thinks BBEG summoned him/aspect
And then make off with the kids.

You gotta smite all the children.

Op clearly stated
>either you murder ur friend or the kids. Otherwise u r kill

It's not a difficult thing to grasp, right?

This so much. Everyone makes fun of paladins making "dumb" choices by sticking to their morals, but they lose EVERYTHING when they drop them. Should do that in my game, force that choice on players, have the mages either die or lose their casting until my whims decide to give them their abilities back. Then laugh as I point out to them how that's exactly what last our last GM did to our palaidn. The guy left and they tipped their fedoras at him on his way out.

Letting children die while he stands aside and does nothing is a failure on the Paladin's side. Just because he's very unlikely to succeed in stopping the villain does not he's freed from the duty to try. Paladin is supposed to fight against Evil all the time, not just when he thinks he has pretty good odds at it.

One of my Paladins was acting out of alignment. He starts having visions of himself standing in the centre cracks forming in the ice below him. Below him he sees the abyss above him a roaring platinum dragon. Starts having to do low dc wisdom checks to use his smiles. One session of me laying that on and he had his faith renewed.

Berate the DM for incorporating a trolley problem into your game.

That, or just start cynically playing the game mechanics
>Paladin falls
>converts his Pally levels into Antipaladin levels
>does a Good deed on purpose
>Antipaladin falls
>converts his Antipally levels into Paladin levels
rinse and repeat as necessary

Trolley problems are the best though.

>low dc wisdom checks to use his smiles
>smiles
Is this a new version of laying on hands? It would feel kinda appropriate...

This, and then some. Kill the other PC too. The bad guy has no more leverage. He Keyser Soze'd him. Now former paladin shifts into a blackguard and slays the evil sorcerer.

>Now former paladin shifts into a blackguard and joins the evil sorcerer.
FTFY

...

This.
Every paladin knows that one day he will die in the struggle against evil.
They also know that until then, they must struggle, fight, tear and suffer in the neverending conflict against evil.
A Paladin, that is a proper paladin, would throw himself at the evil in front of him, even if it meant he might die in vain, because he knows that not only will there be others to strike out against him later on, but even if he fails, he will become a martyr for sticking to his beliefs to the very end.

TL;DR: The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I ain't gonna read all that, but if there's a choice that involves pushing a fat person off a bridge, I'm gonna take that one.

iPhone autocorrect