/swg/ Star Wars General: Renposting Edition

Why do you need official stats?
Practically every CW ship has fan stats and they're usually better than FFG's

>they're usually better than FFG's
define "better" in this particular context.

Sometimes a military is at its (best) worst when no one else is around and can just be complete fucking retards with no one else looking.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karánsebes
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage

Or, you introduce Italians into the mix...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa
...that don't really have a sense of scale. Ambitious, but rubbish
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass
But sometimes just rubbish.

Then sometimes things can get pretty dark in China and then hour later you're hungry again
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suiyang

>Battle_of_Suiyang
WTF. Dang history you scary

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suiyang
>9,600 soldier deaths
>20-30,000 civilians eaten

Sweet christ

More true to how the ships are represented in media, I suppose?

That's probably wrong - LFL approves what FFG publishes, so for the most part, their numbers are probably closest to whatever LF actually has for anything internally, unless they change their mind.

Though, some of the elements of a ship are fairly abstract, that kind of stuff probably goes over the heads at licensing. Silhouette for instance is really weird at times.

Lucasfilm doesn't approve FFG's fucking gear crunch user, they just approve SOME of their fluff

All information printed in Star Wars media is approved by LSG user.

Even non-canon productions like TOR.

>Battle of Suiyang
After seeing all the webms of life in China that have been going around other boards, I'm somehow not surprised by this. Fucking China.

Those tend to be the worst parts of post-Endor Legends as far as the GCW/ICW goes. Not all of it is bad but some of it is fucking nonsensical, and usually skewed in favor of the Rebels/Republic.

The Essential Guide to Warfare has a section where a section of Jan Dodonna's Y-Wings destroy three Imperial I star destroyers. Somehow. The literal non-buzzword cuckold author's excuse is "Dodonna outsmarted them."

>mfw

I'm not a hardcore Empire apologist, but it does piss me off that a few of the Legends authors were dead set on writing the Imperials getting shit on in the dumbest ways possible to further their stories/Rebel fanwanking.

The warlord era stuff where warlords blew gigantic numbers of ships up in giant battles seemed like enough to explain most of it without the imperials being genuinely idiotic, just two sides who are both believers in the Decisive Battle throwing their whole fleets into one with predictable casualties
There probably should have been more mass defections to the NR by ex-IN ships, though

I know this feel. There's not enough stuff, though there's still some, that doesn't just wank over the Rebs. Make the Imperials a threat, and then the victory is meaningful.

5 mon cal cruisers destroying 2 ISDs while losing 2 of their own in a titanic battle... that sort of thing.

Yeah, in the battle of the marshes during the Iran-Iraq war was fairly gristly as well.
The Iranians had 1000's of troops assaulting the Iraqi's dug in positions, without any air or much artillery support, after getting pushed back the Iraqi's went on the offensive and found they couldn't do much because its a fucking swamp and tanks don't work very well in swamps.
So a massive cock fight goes on for months with neither side getting anywhere, 1000's of Iranians get killed by mustard gas, sarin, artillery and air strikes, but in some brilliant spark of lunacy the Iraqis run cables into the swamp and then run 1000's of volts through them to electrocute anyone running around in there. Which actually doesn't really dissuade the Iranians as they still die by the 1000's.

The Iraqis want roads into the swamps, but when all you've got is sand, that's not going to happen. So every morning they send barges out into the swamps for the "morning road detail"
Fill up their barges with dead Iranians, lay them 5 x 5 like logs and about 5 deep, with layers of sand and anything else they can dump on them to start building assault roads into the swamps so they can eventually get their armour into the area and mop up the last pockets of resistance.

That and other fun facts about Iraq don't get much publicity, but when I was going in there in 2003, wasn't exactly a comfortable thought and kind of glad they sent us far away from the marsh areas.

Its basically a society like no other and not one you want to be a part of

Gentlemen, I present to you one of the most lopsided battles in military history.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman

>mfw an army of brits and egyptians is outnumbered 3-1 in total by a force of mahdist rebels
>mfw lord kitchener tells the gyptians to stay back cuz the brits will handle this
>mfw 8,000 british destroy an army of 52,000 sudanis
>mfw at the start of the battle the 21st Lancers, 400 cavalry, charged and repelled an attack of 2,500 sudani warriors supported by 8,000 sudani cavalry with minimal losses
>mfw victorian crosses handed out to them
>mfw the sudani general then decides his army can overwhelm the brit lines
>mfw his army is annihilated in a few hours

Rebel scum.

This user is correct. Though LSG definitely gives some leeway for stats.

Which ex-imperials would the (let's say legends, non-retarded) NR be most interested in hunting down? Say in the 6-9ABY era?
My players are all rebel-leaning but want to try a bounty hunter campaign, and I was just reading The Odessa File, so I'm thinking of having them hunting down various bad imperial motherfuckers for money for the NR

I wanna see a battle like this. It'd be perfect for either a Rebel or Imperial campaign alike, but it'd also be cool just for the neutral players to watch in an Edge game.

They meet either a Rebel general who insists he has 52,000 of the Rebellion's best men with him and is going to overrun some pathetically small force of Imperials through good ol' fashioned brute force, or they meet the Imperial general who says "52,000, eh? They'll need more men." Johnny Reb then charges, confidant his hordes of infantry and light tanks will be enough.

Then the players from afar on the planet see the fireworks, and the next day a line of 5,000 Rebel prisoners being carted off while the Imperial generals drink tea and praise Emperor Sheev Victoria for their gracious victory over these uncivilized cretins.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass
>133,298 Italians were captured by ~35,000 Allied troops
What the shit? How does capturing that many enemies even work logistically?

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suiyang
>20,000-30,000 civilians were eaten
If something like this started happening in a game and an NPC started giving a speech to his troops about how he was going to feed them his concubine I'd assume the GM was taking the group into his gory cannibalistic realm then nope right the fuck out.

I honestly doubt they look at any of the crunch at all, they just make sure the fluff isn't out of line

Isard, Zsinj, Melvar, Thrawn, Baron Fel, Pellaeon, Maarek Stele, Turr Phennir, Daala, General Veers, Moff Disra, Moff Dunhausen, Moff Thistleborn, Moff Muzzer, to name a few potential targets.

The sad thing about China in those times is thanks to its fuckhuge population even back then civilians were considered wholly expendable, and when army cannibalism occurred, it often wasn't forced or violent. Many considered it a great honor to be fed to their army, which is both really disturbing and really sad to think about.

>I honestly doubt they look at any of the crunch at all, they just make sure the fluff isn't out of line
well one would hope that the crunch is reflective of the fluff.

COMPNOR high-ranking types would probably be at the head of the list, then major war criminals. I could also see the NR giving out bounties for people who they think could cause major trouble should they turn warlord, so they want them taken in before that happens
They'd also be pretty big on "alive only" bounties, keep that in mind
You'd probably also see a surprising number of ISB and ImpInt torturers on the list, not necessarily straight government bounties, but people tend to take the existence of those sorts personally, so something like the Alliance Legion going "hey, here's a list of those sorts we found on the lusankya, and we've passed the hat around and gathered up two hundred million credits to have them all killed" might be a thing, be a good steady stream of employment when between interesting big name bounties

For a starting group of bounty hunters, Imperial loyalists would probably be first on the list. The NR treated them like absolute shit in post-Endor EU.

After you cut your teeth on that, probably petty officers or low-scale naval officers, and then basically work your way up.

The Grand Admirals and specific elite forces of the Imperial Military were the ultimate targets, but an independent group of Bounty Hunters isn't going to pose a threat to them in the slightest.

As the NR also faced political turmoil and infighting, you may get some corrupt NR officials wanting the bounty hunters to act more as hitmen and kill off their rivals. Mon Mothma as others have pointed out before was particularly bad about rivalries and people disagreeing with her ideas or methods, so she may be the first to hire the hunters to get rid of the "less desirable" members of the NR.

Or maybe someone pays you to take down Mothma herself.

As you said your players are rebel-leaning, it'll depend on how rebel-leaning they are in this particular campaign. They may even be disenfranchised with the NR despite supporting the Rebels, as the NR definitely turned out different in many ways than what the AtRtR claimed it would, sometimes for worse.

Either way, if you're using Legends NR, it's very much ripe for political intrigue and backstabbery on both the Republic and Imperial side of things, AKA a freelance bounty hunter's paradise. Someone rich always wants someone dead.

Or capture. Capturing would probably land even more credits.

I pitched this exact premise to /co/ a few years asgo in relation to Sir Christopher's own past as a post-WW2 nazi-hunter.

The main targets depending on what sort of game you want to run:

1. The big names heading various departments and fleets. Haul them all in for Space Nuremberg and expose the true extent of the Empire's crimes. 2. Personnel, documents and prototypes relating to various superweapons programmes and other cutting edge tech. Have NR factions squablle for control as some want to destroy the files and prosecute thoose who built the DSII, others who want to recruit Imperial scientists and repurpose Imp-tech to defend the fledging state in an uncertain galaxy.

3.People a few rungs down from the top, but who participated in or did nothing to stop Imp atrocities. Targets include those who committed heinous crimes, those who hurt specific factions or species within the NR that now seek justice, former soldiers and scientists too dangerous and with too much blood on their hands to allow new lives as ronin on the Outer Rim.

>the Empire
>committed numerous atrocities

Rev up those bingo cards, boys.

>expose the true extent of the Empire's crimes.
The Empire did nothing wrong. Alderaan was a valid military target.

>homebase of rebels
>promoting instability and funding terrorism
>spreading treason
They shouldn't have been DSed but they should have been occupied and garrisoned.

>>Atris

Atris' corrupted goal was one of complete annihilation for any being remotely reliant on the force to exist.

>Muh Alderaan
>Forgetting about Anoat
>Antar
>Firrerre
>Bosph
>Caamas
>Binjai-Tin
>Lasan
>Gholondreine-β
>Telfrey
>Ghorman
>Sulon
>Honoghr
>At least one Kashyyyk massacre
>Enslavement of Wookiees
>Westhills, Lothal if nucanon

52k is a pretty large army for the Rebellion to even field, let alone throw away for nothing.
Other way round would work for numbers, but less likely to work for tech/materiel levels.

>Caamas
That one was sheev privately, to be fair.
Rest of the list is legit, though

That's pretty much what the Battle of Yavin was.

>the most advanced battle station in the galaxy, >could carry and deploy thousands of fighters, and hundreds of thousand of troops
>enough firepower to obliterate whole planets
>gets blown up by some literally who dirt farmer, who up until that point, had never even flown anything that was space worthy

and as for capitol ships?

>almost all occurring in bad/obscure novels no one liked

I think DSing them was overkill, but Alderaan was still complete scum. "Neutral" my ass. It's like if Switzerland started dropping bombs on major cities across Europe while it was at war with an outside party, then everyone gets shocked and cries foul when Europe retaliates and they claim "we dindu nuffin we neutral bro!"

Sure destroying them outright was too much, but Alderaan was far from neutral and was a perfectly valid hostile target.

>I shall discount these non-film sources but happy accept my own!!!

That's Empire apologist 101, user.

Dreadnaught-class cruisers and victories were canonically very big parts of the republic navy in that era

I'm a self admitted Imperialfag, but the films are extremely biased towards the rebels.

Not to mention a good chunk of Legends is too.

I accept the Empire did bad stuff but bullshit like a few Y-Wings blowing up multiple SDs and the Empire being LiteralHitler for no reason other than plot convenience is stuff I will never accept.

Sure, but you cant just say "these bits of canon I like, and they just happen to be the ones that say X was evil and the Empire was justified, and that in Y instance the Empire did good stuff!" and then simultaneously say "Those books where the Empire did unambiguously evil things arent very good so ignore them."

Like, you cant just pick and choose which bits of the EU are canon and which arent.
It's either all canon or all not canon.

Sure, you can have bits you prefer - and in your own ttrpg campaigns, you can run it however you like - but in a conversation about the Star Wars universe, you cant really just pick and choose on a whim.

>The films are biased towards the good guys i.e. The Protagonists
>To the point of putting EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE in the opening crawl

Colour me fucking shocked.

Hey, I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, just annoying.

Actually, no, people have been picking and choosing EU canon for decades. So much of it varies so wildly in quality and/or contradicts other things that it would make no sense to say all-or-none when it comes to canon. Even Lucas rarely gave a damn when it came to EU canon and just made a barebones list of canon rankings that most fans did and do ignore as far as Legends go.

Granted, if you're discussing all of Star Wars EU from the point of EU. then yeah, you can't just say "haha it's not canon cuz i say so", but on a personal basis, you don't have to accept all of it or none of it as canon.

Enough people ignore the canonicity Jedi Prince (aside from Dark Memeings) and Force Unleashed for example and for good reason.

A line written by this exact same man, mind you.

youtube.com/watch?v=bz-SaMu8k3w

You don't have to be a Lucas basher to admit that sometimes he writes or says very dumb or odd things that later turn out to be untrue.

So what I'm getting from this discussion is that since Lucas is involved in Star Wars everything is suspect and nothing not even the big yellow letters from God are trustworthy?

Good news everyone lightsabres are powered by orphan tears and Yoda was a Sith Lord.

>another empire is the good/bad guys argument

Well yeah, exactly - on a personal basiss you can say 'damn that shit sucks'.

But when discussing the EU at large, picking and choosing which bits you like makes you look like a faglord.

Where do I start to run a Star Wars game? or play but that's probably a pipe dream at this point. As it stands, mostly I play 5E but I REALLY want to do star wars stuff.

I've noticed something very weird about this.

So the argument of the Title Crawl is always brought up when these arguments start.

The most common argument is "Episode IV's title crawl calls them evil, therefore they are."

The most common counter-argument is "Episode III's title crawl says there are heroes on both sides, which is never shown and/or false."

To counter the initial argument #1, The Evil Galactic Empire, posters point to novelizations or EU content that show the Empire as less-evil, or at the very least make events like Alderaan seem less black-and-white, all in the argument that the Empire is not wholly evil.

These are countered with "Those aren't canon," or "If it contradicts the movies, they aren't canon."

The counter-argument to argument #2 is "In the novelizations or EU content/Clone Wars show there are heroes on the Separatist side who aren't evil."

Now, my counter-argument to the counter-argument is this:

If the Empire supporters aren't allowed to use outside-of-film material to support their argument that Episode IV's title crawl is wrong, how come non-Empire supporters /are/ allowed to use outside-of-film material to support their argument that Episode III's title crawl isn't wrong?

Aside from Alderaan (and that's been argued anyway), the Empire does nothing truly 'evil' throughout the entire original trilogy, and in Episode II and III the Separatists never do anything that could truly be considered "heroic."

I might be getting too autistically intricate here but I'm trying to say as neutrally as possible that there is apparently some obvious bias, unfair bias, against the Empire side on the Title Crawl debate.[./spoiler]

Try the FFG system

What does that stand for? Google is just turning up what looks like a card game?

The Institution of the Empire is evil, that doesn't mean that there aren't good people who live in it, or even serve in it.

Fantasy Flight Games
Its three different core books Force and destiny is for force users
edge of the empire is for smugglers/scum
age of rebellion is for rebels
they all work together

By "the institution of the Empire is evil", could you please explain?

See, I believe these discussions can go somewhere and actually be entertaining so long as people remain civil and don't start shitposting the opposing side.

The system is broken into 3 core books, Edge of the Empire (deals more with scum and outer rim characters), Age of Rebellion (focus on Rebellion characters, or Imperials if you flip the Duty charts) and Force and Destiny (Jedi/Force Stuff)

Better question why must you always fall back on "Okay so apart from that one time with the needless deaths of billions, what have they actually done wrong?"?

They seized control of Cloud City for one, "But muh harbouring rebels" you stabbed them in the back first in one of the more famous lines in film history.

The real answer is of course that they totally separate arguments and the Yellow Text is God.

Okay, I'll give it a shot. I'm hoping to run something on roll20 and convince my DM to run something for me to play a storm trooper in.

I LOVE STAR WARS.

You got discord? I'd be hyped to play if you ran something.

This again brings up the logical fallacy of "Yellow Text = God" though, and it completely stifles creativity if you go about it with this all-or-nothing manner.

It sounds like the basic argument is "if it contradicts the film then it isn't canon", and if that is taken to the most absolute extreme, then that means nothing canon/EU can ever portray the Empire as anything less than pure evil, and everything in canon/EU can portray the Separatists as heroes and be fine.

All because of a single line of Yellow Text for both sides.

It's almost insane that you think those single lines of text should have absolute authority over all creative works ever made for Star Wars.

I think that the general idea of not contradicting movies is good, but common sense should take place of the Yellow Text. It'd be stupid to make a piece of canon that says all of Episode IV was a dream and Luke is actually Yoda and Han is gay for Greedo and Yoda is a living Death Star and other nonsense, that completely contradicts the movies and would be horribly unacceptable.

But saying the Empire isn't necessarily evil doesn't contradict the films, especially since the Empire is never shown doing a single evil act outside of Alderaan, and that is an argument in and of itself.

My argument, the point I'm focusing on, is saying Yellow Text Is God is basically what Constitutionalism was in the early days of the U.S., viewing it as the word of god and that if it didn't say you could do something you couldn't ever do it.

In this case it totally would restrict creativity and what works can do if all of canon must be based on the Title Crawls, even above the actual events of the movies.

Yeah, I'll come back here before I do it. Probably a lot, I'm not a star wars lore master, but man do I want to play.

>could you please explain?
Sure.

The Empire is a government that if pure of corruption and not lead by an evil space wizard sadist could work for you if you're okay with sacrificing freedom for order.

However the Empire IS lead by an evil space dick and is corrupt so what happens is you have a government against slavery and slavers, but enslaving sentient beings, you have a government that takes planets and grinds them to a pulp with little regard for the ecosystem or native population because the Empire needs the Doonium or Kyber, you have the core world's actively taking political, social and economic control of the Empire, leaving out the Mid and Outer Rim Imperial Planets (which also Spurs on the non-human racism). You get commended and awarded for being a dick.

The Empire, like many governmental archetypes are good on paper, but in practice as were shown the Empire is Institutionally evil.

Well I don't come here much, so please just message me on discord if you have it. Wouldn't mind hashing out campaign ideas and stuff either,
ᵀᵒᵃˢᵗᶦᵉ#9609

>and it completely stifles creativity if you go about it with this all-or-nothing manner.
But that isn't a debate. Lucas, by word of God and creator of the story which has strict rules of Canon, said they were evil.

Don't be a Luther user, it won't end well.

And he also said repeatedly that Jar Jar was the key to his films.

Is that also lore from the Word of God?

As far as the corruption goes, it wasn't as bad as the Republic, and even at its most extreme height it was on-par with it.

Your view of Palpatine of course depends on the material you draw from. Some EU works made him out to be a sadistic menace who only wanted power and to be evil, while others made him out to be power-loving but with good intentions/end-justifies-the-means mentality and possible foresight of the Vong.

Personally, I think he was a mix of both. Loved power, kinda evil, but had some good intentions.

The Empire did enact what could be akin to slavery of the Wookiees and Geonosians, though its slavery was not based on private ownership, rather judicial punishment and forced labor for certain crimes that weren't very well defined. That is far different from enslaving sentient beings willy-nilly.

Some worlds, yes, the Empire stripped bare for resources, though they also terraformed several worlds and colonized many others, and didn't do anything of the sort to them. They just made new places to live and build. I think this issue is a double-edged sword, in that case.

In the Republic, the Core took control of all those things as well, though the effect was slightly lessened with the weakened power of the Imperial Senate. There were enough strong positions of power in the other Rims that progress and prosperity did begin to seep outward, but the Empire was around for 2 and a half decades, while the disparity and Core-bias of the Republic was around for a millennia.

As for freedom over order, that again depends on one's personal outlook. Security with Restriction, or Uncertainty with Freedom.

Can we not hve this argument yet again?

Everyone knows that the literal canon phrasing says the empire is evil.
Ignore the one fucking guy who is obsessed with jerking off the Empire every thread because otherwise it just degenerates into yet another fucking argument.

Can we PLEASE just fucking move on as a group?

>Jar Jar was the key to his films.
>He doesn't know Lucas is autistic and bad at humor
That said, Jar Jar pretty much does allow the Emperor to take power

Here the thing. I'm not using EU material, it ain't Canon. Canon states the Empire is evil and all the material shows that the institution, not necessarily the people, but the institution is evil.

I don't think it's impossible to debate, as there have been good arguments made as to why the Title Crawls or what Lucas says aren't always 100% accurate.

To say hell with it because the Title Crawl says something is to me a bit too eager to block off constructive discussion or creative thinking on the topic.

Yes Governor, I promise not to rise to the bait any longer.

>Canon shows that it's evil

Nothing except Alderaan occurs in the movies that indicates the Empire as a whole system is at all evil.

If you think Alderaan wasn't evil, alright, and even if you think it was, the order to destroy the planet in the movie was given by a single man out of countless trillions in the Empire.

This is without getting into any of the EU content often brought up when debating the morality of Alderaan's destruction either. 100% by-the-movies, Alderaan was done by one man, and no one else aside from Vader is shown doing even a single evil act in the movies.

Even Palpatine for all his talk about embracing hatred doesn't do a single evil thing. Villainous maybe, like shocking the protagonist with lightning, but the Big Bad of the whole trilogy doesn't do anything evil at all in the film itself.

Sure, MON MOTHMA.

I'd agree, except it literally always just devolves into >implying alderaan didnt deserve it, >implying the destruction of alderaan wasnt a good thing, >implying slavery of aliens is bad
Just in far more words, and far more time than I just took to boil it down for you.

Shit's fucking obnoxious, and goes literally nowhere, ever.

Can we just post cool spaceships and talk about our favourite FFG character concepts?

Thanks lads, 5 New Republic credits have been deposited into your accounts.

>villainous
>using black magic to fuck up the hero
>not evil

>favourite FFG character concepts
Anyone got story's of their recent sessions?

I could give a little bit of a story time about Luck Squadron

>using black magic

Other Jedi are shown using lightning in the EU.

Luke even uses Choke in the movies, which Vader is shown using extensively.

Point is null there.

>missing the symbolism of Luke in RotJ
Dude is wearing all black and has a mechanical hand - they even draw a straight comparison to it in the climactic scene of the movie, at which point his inner hero comes out along with his white undershirt.

Not even remotely subtle.

Regarding the EU lightning, that was established as a different power altogether and the Jedi were STILL not happy about the guy using it.

My party have got up to some bullshit.

They had a three-party vault break-in which was pretty fun.
Ended up with thousands of credits of jewels and a shiny new z-95 headhunter stolen, and half a casino totally levelled.

It was a fun few sessions.

Why does Lando look like he's just sobbing into his hands
That's hilarious

The whole point of RotJ is that the Emperor believes Luke is one good shakedown from falling to the Dark Side. Aside from being blind to the power of familial love, his foresight isn't wrong. The choke is part of setting that tone of Luke walking a razor's edge along this phase of his journey. Shit, he spends the whole movie dressed in black for extra heavy symbolism to boot.

"Muh EU lightning" is hardly relevant, because it's no surprise that authors looking for zingy cool factor - without considering the subtlety of a balanced Force user - are going to start handing out magic lightning and various other Evocation-school powers. That hardly makes their use by well-adjusted individuals an element of actual canon.

Well i mean, he's watching one of his oldest friends die in an about-to-explode ship, so I guess it hit him really hard.

Kyle Katarn even outside of the games uses Force Lightning, and it's said to be Force Lightning.

>NOT A SCRATCH, HE SAID

And a huge point of his story is that he damn near fell to the dark side before he got pulled back by Jan and others.

Him using Force lightning is a part of that.

And Kyle Katarn is a fucking video game character who they can throw whatever the fuck they want on to

>the Empire does nothing truly 'evil' throughout the entire original trilogy
Killing luke's aunt and uncle, unarmed civillians, over a two droids,
also, clone wars and rebels are cannon, and there are a few parts where it shows the rebels to not always be morally superior,

I have altered the deal.
Pray I do not alter it any further.