Khorne and Khaine

Thank you for this clarification.

Damn. Why are the Eldar gods so weak, especially considering the size of the Eldar empire at the time of Slannesh's birth?

>Damn. Why are the Eldar gods so weak

They're not weak, they're just not in the same league as the Chaos Gods. The Chaos Gods gain power from much broader and deeper sources.

>The Chaos Gods gain power from much broader and deeper sources.
I see. Anyways, thank you for clarifying that detail.

Khorne's ideology is a lot more active - the will of khorne is to change the universe. Khorne despises a perfect warrior who only fights to increase his skill, for that is the domain of Slaanesh. To Khorne, the perfect warrior is no the undefeated warrior, but the warrior who causes blood to flow the most*.

Khaine is more like Slaanesh, in that he focusses a lot more on skill. It's Khaine who taught the Phoenix Lords the various aspects of war, and it is through their devotion of Khaine that the Eldar Aspect Warriors devote their lives to perfecting their skill with specific fighting styles.

*Note, not all blood is worth the same to Khorne, despite popular belief. The saying "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows" is not literal. It refers to Khorne not caring whenter one side or the other wins. Khorne prefers the blood and skulls of powerful warriors to the wholesale slaughter of civilians (because they make poor warriors).

>Khorne despises a perfect warrior who only fights to increase his skill, for that is the domain of Slaanesh.
I thought Slanessh was the Pleasure God. What does that have to do with skill?

Slaanesh is the god of excess. Excess pleasure, excess art, excess grandeur, excess ceremony, excess sensation, excessively long lists, and yes, excess skill. Slaanesh is pleased by those who devote themselves excessively to one thing, including the warrior who hones his craft for its own sake.

Khorne does not care about why you fight. Blood and skulls are all that matters. A psychotic mass murderer is worth the same to him as a duelist head-hunter.

Your beliefs or reasons to fight do not concern him in the slightest, as long as rivers of blood and mountains of skulls are created he will still shower you with gifts even if you think you're doing it for peace or some gay shit like that.

By the time of the Fall, the Eldar had mostly abandoned their gods and all their effort went into the depravities that birthed Slaanesh.

Slaanesh was getting almost all the mojo that the entire pantheon once got.

That is because Khorne wants the _aftermath_ of the fight, not the fight itself. Like you said, he wants blood and skulls. He wants an axe burying itself in another man's skull. what he doesn't want is an axe burying itself in a practise dummy.

Huh. I had a hunch Slaanesh wasn't competently bad, I just didn't know how until recently.

Actually the fight is just as important. Rage, hatred, courage and determination are emotions that cool down after a battle ends, and since these emotions are what give him form in the first place, he longs for eternal war.

There is no peace. Only time wasted between battles.

Those emotions are still the aftermath of the fight. The actual actions of sword hitting sword mean nothing to Khorne.

>There is no peace. Only time wasted between battles
Or, if you want the grimbright interpretation, there's not even that. In truth, life is just as violent as death, for the living are constantly struggling against the universe every second that they live. Combat is simply the greatest act of struggle there is.

How come there aren't human gods in the warp? Not psychic enough?

>A psychotic mass murderer is worth the same to him as a duelist head-hunter.

Khorne cares about quantity, not quality. He doesn't care how you kill people, just that you do, and do it often - a psychotic who massacres everyone he meets holds more value than a duelist who only kills "worthy" opponents.

>quantity, not quality
Gay. The butcher who kills pigs is not favoured by Khorne. The doctor who genocides trillions of bacteriums is not favoured by Khorne. This is not to say that omnicide is displeasing to Khorne, just that the killing of great warriors is more pleasing to him than the killing of weak children. This is why Khornate warriors are big on heroic challenges and single combat.

Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench are human gods. Khorne in particular was likely created by Human psychic run-off, which is why his primary form is that of an armored human being.

They already have a corpse in a chair, what more gods to they need?

There are. Chaos gods.

If you mean the deities of the major monotheistic religions of earth today.
Then; because those are made up bullshit with zero basis in reality.

At least the chaos gods are fuelled and worshipped based on actual concepts and real emotion.

This is the 21st century. Most religions are turning their backs on god, because rational thought is finally catching up with the stupid of the world. Give it a few thousand years...

40k is a long time in the future. 30k is also in the distant future. The current major monotheist gods haven't even existed for as long as the difference between now and the grim dark.

>which is why his primary form is that of an armored human being.

Actually he's a dog man.

>universes over
adb pls

I know, but that was dropped off early on. The armor stayed.

It doesn't help all they're followers are pretty much dead

>that was dropped off early on.

No it wasn't.

It's canon.

Khorne hates resurrecting mortals, and has only ever resurrected Khârn but once at the Siege of Terra. Khârn has never died since.

He resurrected Valkia and Skarr Bloodwrath.
He does whatever he wants.

He didn't resurrect Valkia, he made her a Daemon Princess thing.

Nah, she was mortal.

All these bitter Eldarfags.

The setting is about the Imperium (and their Ynnari sidekicks) vs Chaos, sorry.

>warp god and the other is a chaos god.
>Warp God
>Chaos God
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He didn't resurrect Valkia, she was at the verge of death, iirc, and he made her a Daemon Princess.

So she technically wasn't dead.

Dunno who Skarr is tho

>He didn't resurrect Valkia

Nope, she died.

>iirc, and he made her a Daemon Princess.

Nope, he brought her back to life.
Whether she has since become a daemon is more open to debate, but even now her rules treat her as a mortal and not a daemon.

None of the Chaos gods are. They represent the positive and negative aspects of the emotions that formed them. Slaneesh favors the artist seeking to perfect his craft just as much as the hedonist seeking their next high. Nurgle is both despair and the deternination to carry on in spite of hardships. Hope and ambition in all its forms fuels Tezeentch, from the scheming politician to the revolutionary. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows. Even the most righteous and virtuous of warriors gives him power.

The Chaos gods are inextribly tied to sentient life, you can't get rid of them without killing all life in the galaxy. The problem is that all the death and destruction caused by the War in Heaven twisted the Warp, which is why the gods are all assholes.

One is orderly, one is not. What is there hard to guess and make you look like a retard?

Khorne doesn't really have a character. He's just violent emotion incarnate.The lore states he was created primarily out of human emotion.

Khaine is one of the old Eldar Gods. All warp entities are based on emotion, Khaine largely being violence. However, Khaine also had a personality. He was more refined. As the Eldar stopped worshipping their Gods and heeded only Slaaneshi behavior, Khaine gradually lost strength. So did the other Eldar Gods.

When Slaanesh was born he killed the neglected Eldar Gods except Isha, Khaine, and Cegorach.

Khaine was saved by Khorne because he admired his violent nature. Khorne regards him as a son.

The chaos gods represent forces of nature incarnate and have positive aspects but there doesn't seems to be and "good" manifestations, the chaos ones are all pretty gross and destructive,

In all fairness if khorne were ever to be defeated like slaanesh from Ynnead. It would be all appropriate for Khorne to fist himself to death or oblivion

on second thought no
slaanesh would be dong that

Khorne would cut off and eat his own dick before beheading himself

But user, Khorne brings Tuska back all the time.

Khorne is not an honorable foe any more than orks, both valuing a good krumpin. He doesn't withhold his blessing from those who slaughter the innocents and weak. However, by design someone who is only slaughtering the innocent and weak will be appealing to Slaanesh because it will be cultivating the emotions of pic related and excess. To use a metaphor, a Khornate will besiege a city, kill the defenders and kill everyone until something new gets his attention. A slaaneshi will besiege a city, kill the defenders, and kill and torture every last civilian for the thrill of it.

I understand the human centric nature of the setting but what seems to contradict it is that I read the war in heaven and the old gods weaponization of the warp is what caused it to become this mean, nasty and violent place. With all the xenos species in the galaxy it is hard to take seriously the idea that , for instance, -just- the medieval period or just the Genghis Khan conquests were enough to gestalt Khorne.

It took the Eldar's galaxy spanning empire and trillions of Eldar with extreme levels of psychic ability and hedonism to birth Slaanesh and we're supposed to believe the barely psychic humans with just a few tens of millions dying birthed Khorne?

Fedora get out. There was a last Christian on earth by the time the Emperor had won the war of unification.

Have the gods of chaos ever converted xenos into their ranks? It seems odd that they mostly pick on humans even though they gain power from the thoughts and actions of every being with a connection to the warp.

Chaos Eldar are a thing, can be found in the lost crone worlds in the Eye of Terror. Apparently super powerful, but for some reason don't matter. Chaos Orks used to be a thing, I think GW isn't mentioning them anymore.

Often, major xenos not as much - some or other form of resistance/safeguard typically is what helped them get major in the first place.

Or we go back to Rogue Trader which had all sorts of fun stuff.

Also according to some banshees, Khorne is about bloodshed and rage and killing, where as Khaine is a more "pure form of war" martial war etc....

>Khorne in particular was likely created by Human psychic run-off
Wasn't it implied in older stuff that Khorne finally achieved sentience with Ghengis Khan? Of course, as soon as he tipped over the line to waking up he'd always been awake because lolWarp.

Yes but I don't think the gap is as large as people make out. Khaine managed to hold his own against a very empowered slaanesh (who was currently around on par with khorne)

This puts khaine pretty fucking high, Cegoragh was able to escape the 4 gods. But yes Chaos is stronger

They're stronger, but it kind of depends. When Slaanesh woke up the first time he was overflowing with power. And the Big Four were definitely worried about the Emperor during the Crusade. If the Emperor's plan was useless, they wouldn't have been so eager to stop him. Or call him anathema.

People will try to debate and deny it, but yes, Khaine the bloody handed war god most certainly is Khorne. To what extend their relationship is, who knows? Is Khaine an alter ego of Khorne, did they just get them mixed up? But theres no doubt about it, the most conclusive evidence is the Avatar of Khaine, it has the same stats as a Bloodthirster and even the daemon special rule. More so Eldar must make a sacrifice to the wraithbone body to "awaken" the avatar. This is Eldar babble, when they sacrifice the young king they are summoning a bloodthirster and binding it to a wraithbone body.

The same is true with Ynnead and Slaanesh, the avatar of Ynnead has the same stats as a Keeper of Secrets. Its kind of funny that the eldars newly born god is in fact an alter ego of the diety they all love, but its kind of obvious. Its a warp entity that feeds on the souls of eldar, and the fluff has always insisted that the Eldar weere doomed and had no hope, Ynnead wasnt a thing until the 6e book. What I find ironic is the 4e(5e?) daemon book had a story about a Keeper of Secrets decieving an entire craftworld into letting it aboard after which it promptly summoned hordes of daemonettes and fed on said craftworld. Ynead is probably a similar story but on a larger scale since this time instead of a KOS lying its way into a single craftworld, its Slaanesh itself lying its way into the entire species.

Simalry, Cegorach is probably Tzeentch- and Asurymen was probably Nurgle. Asurymen is the older brother of Khaine, so he must be Nurgle if Khaine is Khorne. Cegorach is a trickster who has things go just as planned, and survived the fall of the Eldar. We also have stories of Tzeentch and Slaaneshi Daemons using Harlequins to infiltrate craftworlds- Im thinking of a story where it turns out the Solitaire was a named Tzeentch demon who brought in the masque after killing the other performers.

Con't.

The Eldar pantheon outside of those four, is probably a bunch of OG eldar who were given daemon prince status by Asuryan. This is probably the great separation you hear where the Eldar Gods had to be removed from their mortal children, it was in fact them being granted Daemonhood so they could no longer exist in realspace.

So, the reason Nurgle stole Isha from Slaanesh probably wasn't because he wanted her for himself. Nurgle saved Isha because he loved her and viewed her as his responsibility and always has/will, this also makes sense when you consider that Nurgle is the only caring Chaos God.

The last thing to note is creating Chaos Gods was why the Eldar were created. The entire point of the species was to create a ripple in the warp and birth dieties that could combat the star gods. When you look at it this way, the creation of Slaanesh was their ultimate purpose- The Old Ones plan likely knew a Slaanesh like being would eventually spawn and consume the species and other warp entities before finally combating and killing the Star Gods. Eldar exist to feed and empower Slaanesh, and the other warp gods until they face the same fate the eldar pantheon did. Slaanesh being all consuming is probably why all the other warp gods hate it so much, they fear her.

>when they sacrifice the young king they are summoning a bloodthirster and binding it to a wraithbone body.
Wrong

It is Khaine himself, a fragment of him, true he is a daemon and some Eldar refer to him as the bastard son of khorne, others speculate he is a facet of khorne or some sort of cousin. But he isn't actually Khorne himself. Avatars are not bloodthirsters

Its a WS10 greater daemon. Its a Bloodthirster.

>And the Big Four were definitely worried about the Emperor during the Crusade.

They were not. Read the HH.

>they wouldn't have been so eager to stop him

They were eager to punish him for his betrayal.

I mean for fucksake. A single daemon of Undivided sent the Emperor running. He is no match for the Chaos Gods.

40k gods are all fucked by chaoswank

so wereFabtasy Gods in 8th Ed/End Times, but at least you have the earlier editions with proper world building and depth.

Reducing everything to "lol chaos" is the worst move GW ever made, and pleased only the most extreme chaosfags, while souring the setting for everyone else.

So nobody read the Liber Chaotica?

In the War in Heaven, the Eldar under the guidance of the Old ones built psychic constructs as weapons against the C'tan and Necrons. As the Old Ones started dying out, the Eldar started worshipping these constructs as gods until they eventually evolved into gods.

>Khaine managed to hold his own against a very empowered slaanesh (who was currently around on par with khorne)

Nope, you asshole. Fuck why do you lie. Anti-Chaos faggots have the worse record when it comes to the lore.

In old version, Khaine did not hold his own. He was overwhelmed and seduced by Slaanesh immediately. As he was being sucked up by Slaanesh, Khorne appeared to defend what was his by right. Ending in a draw that destroyed Khaine.

In the newer version, Khaine was curbstomped by Slaanesh royally. Khorne made no appearance at all, and Slaanesh could not suck up Khaine so in rage Slaanesh tore Khaine apart and flung the pieces all over the place.

There is no deity in the setting that can match or approach the Chaos Gods in power. So don't throw your lies and headcanon about.

1. Khaine did hold his own, in the sense that it was a battle, not a curbstomp.

2. Gork and Mork are stronger then Chaos.

>Gork and Mork
Getting desperate?
40k ends with Slaanesh consuming everything, as it began with his birth.

>1. Khaine did hold his own, in the sense that it was a battle, not a curbstomp.

Hold his own means giving a proper fight that can go both ways. Khaine did not. He was seduced in the first one from the start and the second one had Slaanesh defeat him with contemptuous ease.

>2. Gork and Mork are stronger then Chaos.

>then

No wonder you are an idiot.

The lore in all main rulebooks says that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful and dangerous deities in the Warp.

>There is no deity in the setting that can match or approach the Chaos Gods
BUT... there's one they fear, in their tounge he's Skubkiin, CATO SICARIUS *Ultramarine theme blowing at full force*

Gork and Mork aren't in the Warp you dingus.

Really, retard? Their lore says they are the psychic reflection of the Orks minds in the WARP.

And the 7th ED has Gork and Mork fighting swarms of daemons IN THE WARP.

.

He stopped arguing his point a few posts ago, at this point hes just trying to tell you you're wrong.

>Read the HH.
I did. Nobody exerts that much effort, literally refers to him as Anathema (capitalised), and goes out of their way to try and stop him (and succeed), unless they're genuinely worried about the potential consequences.

And said daemon was only able to hurt him because it was inherently linked to the Emperor and Humanity. It almost died to Custodians and Mechanicum shooting it. I do not understand why people insist on wanking Drach'nyen so hard that they read things that simply aren't there.

>I did. Nobody exerts that much effort, literally refers to him as Anathema (capitalised), and goes out of their way to try and stop him (and succeed), unless they're genuinely worried about the potential consequences.

They were worried about the Webway and his plan for humanity, not him. That's why when the Webway was destroyed, the Emperor knew that he and his race are doomed.

>And said daemon was only able to hurt him because it was inherently linked to the Emperor and Humanity.

Same as athe Chaos Gods which the Emperor was stated to be weak against to the point that confronting them would be suicide for him.

And it goes beyond hurt. He cannot destroy or banish it.

>It almost died to Custodians and Mechanicum shooting it.

And the presence of the blanks sapping at its essence and power.

Like this faggot Carnac or whatever he's called. I see him in literally every thread that has anything remotely to do with 40k blowing cuck'nyen and the chaos gods. I suspect it's adb himself desperately wanking his own fanfiction.

>He was overwhelmed and seduced by Slaanesh immediately

Except he did hold slaanesh off, he wasn't winning but it was a "titanic battle" between the 2, Slaanesh ate up all the other Eldar gods (isha and cegoragh excluded) while Khaine fought slaanesh.

Nurgle popped in during the fight to steal isha, Cegoragh used the time Khaine was buying them to flee into the webway

.... Termagaunts are BS3 and infantry. All termagaunts are imperial guardsmen by your logic.

Khaine is khaine, he is not a bloodthirster. Bloodthirsters are miniature spawns of khorne given a portion of his power. Avatars are little emodiments of Khaine in the physical universe

There is two versions of the story. That line you quoted was about the first version where Khaine seduced and laid down his sword for Slaanesh.

was seduced*

That sounds fucking gay and I have never heard that anywhere? I can only assume it was 2nd edition or earlier

Orks can feel when an ork goes full khornate, and that's not proper orky, and thus get's krumped.
They still have small martial cults of warrior discipline that shuffle members. It's their version of "angsty teenager bullshit".

Orks sometimes but most don't think its orky
Eldar sometimes as well but most live on maiden worlds in the warp and are rarely seen
Lesser xeno races too

dont be pedantic, it was obvious that user was talking about the emperor not only as a man but also as the ruler that leads humanity.

The whole reason the HH even happened was because the chaos gods knew that the emperor was the only man who could ever bring some type of order to the galaxy, which is bad if you feed off disorder and mayhem. Also the emperor was on the cusp of making a functioning webway, making it even harder for chaos to influence humanity via the warp

He was implying that the Emperor was powerful enough to be a threat to the Chaos Gods which the HH utterly debunks. It's not about him being a leader or anything.

no i wasnt

I meant what this user said

Wow you're a fucking retard.
Like if termaguants shared special rules and the rest of their statline with guardsmen, maybe! But they do not. An avatar of Khaine has the same stats as a bloodthirster save it has +1 initiative, it has the daemon special rule FFS, so it is a daemon end of story. Greater Demons must be marked, so it must be one of the chaos gods, and I highly doubt its Tzeentch.

The only difference between a bloodthirster and avatar of khaine is one of them is bound to a molten wraithbone body.

In Fulgrim they describe a very Slaaneshi xenos species. I think the first Eisenhorn book has some chaotic xenos too. They're def a thing, but I think the race has to be psychic so that they can have a presence in the warp. IE: There will never be chaos tau.

>Genghis Khan conquests were enough to gestalt Khorne.

>It took the Eldar's galaxy spanning empire and trillions

Their births are not comparable.
Khornes birth is a manifestation of something that has existed as long as sentient life. Slaneesh' birth changed the very fabric of reality and ripped a hole in the galaxy.

I'm not saying the setting is consistent but those two events don't really bare much comparison.

>I think the first Eisenhorn book has some chaotic xenos too
Yeah, Xenos did a decent job with the concept of a species so integrated with Chaos that it pervades every aspect of their being
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Saruthi

Orks will kill converted Orks very quickly. The old lore said that Stormboyz secretly worshipped Khorne, which is why they have a more regimented look

Basically Khaine was created by the Eldars as a weapon, Khorne was born naturally from hatred and anger

Not really wierd. The central thesis of 40k is essentially humans are better than everyone at everything and more important in every way, so whereas minor conquerors from earth become 3/4's of the galaxy's greatest powers xenos have only ever produced a single (weakest) of these gods when they were at their zenith.

Kinda like how all the strongest psykers, warriors and thinkers are also human

Eldar are inherently superior to humans in every way tho wat.
Only reasons humans took Eldars place was because of the fall.

Not really. Eldar Psykers aren't even near the top 5 strongest Psykers, those are humans. Best leaders and thinkers are also human, with Dark Age of Technology tech far outstripping Eldar.

Besides even at the height of their power Eldar were, at best, comparable to Humanity. Eldar are quite significantly inferior to humanity within the setting, as all races are. The best at all feats are always humans.

Eldrad is not one of the top 5 psykers? Like what humans are more powerful psykers than him? Primarchs and the Emperor don't count, they're gods.

>with Dark Age of Technology tech far outstripping Eldar
Oh boy, here we go.

Emperor and Primarchs do count, absolutely no reason to arbitarily discard them. They're not gods, never have been said to be.

Besides Tigurius literally has a better track record with predictions than Eldrad does, Artemis is said to have a greater gift for presience than him too and Malcador has way more impressive Psyker powers than Eldrad. Ahriman, also, defeated Kyaduras easily and then insta-beat the Yncarnate with ease, so he's way above Eldrad too.

But anyways, Primarch and Emps do count, no reason not to count them.

The God Emperor of mankind who was a 20ft tall uber psychic being was most certainly a god. Primarchs created from his genetics are demi-gods. None of them are human outside of appearance, they are unto normal humans as the Eldar gods were unto them.

On the tabletop though, arent Ahriman and Eldrad both mastery 4, and isnt tiger only 3?

I'm only talking lore.

Emperor never said to be a God. Master of Mankind makes very clear he's just a human with really strong Psychic. Primarchs aren't Gods either, and they're definitely way stronger than the Eldar's Gods ever were.

Humans better Psykers, Warriors, more fearless, widespread, smarter, well-organized and successful than all other species. Easy.

Much as I hate the idea, from what we've seen in fluff, I'd probably have to agree with the poster on this. Considering the type of equipment we've seen Forgeworld and novels say the Age of Technology humans had access too, the Eldar tech pales in comparison.

Necron tech still seems comparable though.