What is your ideal society?

for the record I have thirty plus cousins, then there are my brothers, their wives, their cousins, the cousins families, and cousins who have adult children, and of course my in laws. Altogether my extended family that is within reach is probably easily over a hundred people. Most of my friends families are about the same. Hell one of my good friends has 7 siblings and half of them are married. If we could pull them all together we'd be a pretty big damn group of people. realistically we wouldn't get them all, but you said ideal soooo yeah.

a Democratic Socialist Kritarchy.

do you live in or have family roots to Appalachia?
that's the only place where people I know of with families that big come from.

Interesting, thank you user.

That's quite a lot, where I live almost everyone is related to everyone, or their family hasn't been here for more than a generation.

A Democratic Socialist Kritarchy? Neat, thank you user.

For a post-apocalypse?
A society that inspires creativity and construction, doing the best they can to make cities of beauty and self-sufficiency.

I'm a redneck mate. Now i'm not uneducated mind you, I went to uni on scholarship (first man in my family to got to college actually. My brother's are dumb asses), but I am a gun toting bible thumping redneck and I am not ashamed of it.

That only sounds great if you're one of the people on his side. If you're the country being invaded, well...
Also, he may be great at conquering, but that's saying nothing about how he'd actually be as a leader in peacetime.

Family reunions are hell. I swear I don't even recognize half of the people there.

Epicurean commune. That or stoic commune.

Basically I just want Ataraxia.

Options are pretty simple.

Scientist faction, separate form others for no good reason.

Raider faction (lol, bodies everywhere?)

Previous Government faction

Competing Previous Government faction

Expanding Empire, good or bad, based on a historical system like Rome or America-In-The-Bad-Ways

Good Guy Faction that is America-in-the-good-ways

Endless "societies" originally made from family groups with hangers-on, some form of monarchy in name only or sorta-democratic councils.

Might be something I've missed but most things have a version here.

hey, i never said there was anything wrong with it, just asking for reference.

i ask because my uncle is from Virginia- one of nine kids. for my cousin's wedding, there were well over 50 family members from his side. from my aunt's side, just the four of us. it was...startling, to say the least.

I nearly got kicked out of the reception for laughing when someone said "thank god there wasn't any rain"

I could go more into detail on it, but I decided to leave the faults more open because that makes for a more interesting post-apoc faction. Since we're talking realism-inspired fiction and not actual political ideologies.

what is the central conflict, why are the factions not at war, and what are the interests of each faction

Oddly enough while my fathers side of things comes from virginia me mum is from a different part of the country where you actually see comparable numbers as far as families go. Probably couldn't get to moms family, but in the event of an apocalyptic situation I wouldn't worry about them. People around where they live would pull together.

Aesthetic city-builders? Fascinating. Thank you user.

I can relate.

Epicurean/Stoic communes? That's surprisingly intriguing. Thank you user, if you don't mind explaining, what is Ataraxia?

Thank you for your input user.

I'm still developing the setting. It's somewhat vague, but the idea is that it takes place a few decades/centuries after a solar flare and a weaponized smallpox epidemic bring mankind back to dark ages, with bits and pieces of modern technology.

So where would this be set in? I mean some things make sense for some places more than others. Your not going to get a collection of red neck tribes living in the mountains and descending to raid for supplies in a place without either mountains or rednecks.

there are Swamp rednecks too.

they're called Cajuns.

Remake the confederate states of america. Stone Fist Johnson, General Glee, Jeffigton David, etc.

Yeah I know, I've gotten into some great fist fights with a few while drunk, I'm just saying location matters. I mean yeah there are Cajuns, but what if he set this in Cali or something? Do they have rednecks in Cali?

o.O
please, enlighten me. we don't have massive families out here. the largest I know of here is a family of seven.

>semi-realistic post-apocalyptic setting
How about a militaristic defensive militia, formed from the remnants of the citizen militias and preppers that survived the apocalypse? Basically /k/ incarnate, they are highly distrustful of others, but if you're one of them they'll fight and die alongside you no matter the circumstance.

Despite their militarism they aren't particularly authoritarian, mostly using hierarchy based on age and military experience. They tend to live up in the mountains and forest hills, but if they see a strategic target such as a bridge they'll seize it and enact a toll on travelers and merchants. They're very well fortified in their mountain fortresses, but also isolationist with few allies to turn to, and viewed mostly as a roadblock to expansion by the other factions.

You ever heard of Utah? Families with twelve who adopt more are not unheard of, I kid you not. Dated a girl from there once who was second oldest of eight. Mormons fuck like rabbits.

SURE DO. they're just not as widely well known.

mostly, they live in the central valley or north of Sacramento. met a family of them recently transplanted from Mississippi to east of San Diego as well. the further inland from the coast, the more likely you'll run into them.

Huh, I guess we're everywhere.

ahhh, I always forget the Mormons.
always wanted to go to Salt Lake City, but I've been told by friends that the people are straight up Children of the Corn.

yep, but ya'll seem to avoid big cities for the most part for some reason.

Speaking of Utah that is another possibility for a faction for you OP, the descendants of a religious group who pulled together in the face of the apocalypse. Have it as some sort of Theocracy.

playful femdom matriachy with sense of humor.
sex all day ev'ry day.

I've family over there, and I've been for cousins weddings and stuff like that. They're just people. Hell my uncles are mormon and so are their kids and there is nothing odd about them. I mean they don't drink and they're a bit uptight about some things, but they're just people. Nice people even for the most part in my experience. People give em a bad rep, but people say a lot of shit about rednecks too, and there's nothing wrong with us. Every bodies just people, and ignorant cunts (no offense to you mate, I trust your not like that) talk shit about people who are different than them for no real reason.

As cliche as it is, I was considering having the primary setting in the North American continent, with some action in other continents.

Hail Dixie! Thank you user.

I'd had something like that in mind, but your idea is better. Thank you user.

Deseret 2.0? Nice. Thank you user.

>no offense
none taken

its only rape cause you keep saying no!

Honestly I think Deseret 2.0 would be a pretty damn likely occurrence in the event of an apocalypse. I've seen my uncles food storage (that's a thing for Mormons apparently) and he has shelves and shelves of preserved food and big old 50 gallon drums of water squirreled away in his basement. It's like they're all survival nuts. I think they'd do pretty well.

there are some shitty mormons too though, user.

Any more context you can give? What kind of apocalypse, and how long after are you thinking? There's a big difference between fifty years after a nuclear apocalypse and three hundred years after the death of the Sun, for example.

Restorationists
Nu-Earthers that eschew technology
Biker go gang raiders
Chivalrists - medieval recreationists
Amazon tribes who are angry at the men who destroyed the world.
The citizens of Topeka who live in an underground vault'
Nomads modelling their lifestyle around poorly understood data about American Indians.

I only say no because it makes it more exciting

A caste system city-state where the citizens lack reproductive rights, and periodically the government assign them a partner based on factors such as health, intelligence and temperament. Other than that, they can live their sexual and romantic lives with a surprising degree of freedom: as long as they take contraceptive pills/herbs/have sex while already pregnant they are free to choose whatever companions they want.

Kids are taken from their parents at a very young age and are educated collectively by the teachers-leaders caste. At puberty, they must undergo a rite of passage that determines to which caste they'll be assigned. If someone feels they have been assigend to the wrong caste, they can choose to re-take the test every ten years.

Anything historic that once used horses is a good option.

Either because gas in scarce now, so you can keep the horses. And a lot of old professions that needed steeds are now back in demand (knights for defence, cowboys for livestock protection/law enforcement)

And then going off that, any profession that used horses can now be updated to use motorcycles and buggies, thereby making it even more fucking awesome.

I'm sure there are, but there are some pretty shitty rednecks too, and there are shitty city folk, and there are shitty atheists. And there are good people in all those groups too. Honestly there are good people and shitty people in every group. There aren't many groups I'd believe are nothing but shitty people. Peoples people, and you get all kinds. I know there are shitty mormons, I ain't saying their perfect, I'm just saying in my experience they aren't as bad as some people make em out to be. certainly not children of the corn level.

I'm picturing the tribe of tumblr and laughing at the image of impotence.

Ataraxia literally translates as "not perturbed". It's a central concept in Epicureanism and a secondary one in Stoicism. It has different paths to achieving it across Greaco-Roman philosophy, but essentially it's a kind of detachment to achieve true happiness. By not being concerned with physical passions, metaphysical questions, or vexatious people, one finds peace.

Epicureans largely tried to do this by living in small communes with their close friends and lived subsistence/lightly mercantile lives. Just good but not decadent food, friendly company, and no social worries. It's what I would hope to achieve in the post apocalypse because I no longer have social expectations or structures to make it irritating.

You could spin some Buddhist themes in or make them have a slightly martial bent to make them survivable.

Everyone else is dead and the only one left standing is me

Acknowledged, thank you for bumping the thread anons.

They also have one of the highest firearm ownership rates per capita of any religious group.

I'm still developing the setting. It's somewhat vague, but the idea is that it takes place a few decades/centuries after a solar flare and a weaponized smallpox epidemic bring mankind back to dark ages, with bits and pieces of modern technology.

Thank you for the inspiration user.

Feudal eugenics? An interesting concept, thank you user.

A fascinating concept, it would go hand-in-hand with the Buddhist concept of Nirvana.

Original, that's for sure. Thank you user.

Let's assume right off the bat that I can actually set up this society.

Simply put, it would be almost completely underground. Hydroponics would be used to create the main source of food, and it would be used in abundance. The society would be built as two inverse underground pyramids, with one being having hydroponics on the upper layers and living spaces in the bottom, and the other being the opposite. It would be set up so that there should, barring war, always be enough food to feed everyone up to full strength for three months with only reserve stock. Any passageways outside of the main two bunkers would be at least a mile away, with twists and turns to provide checkpoints in case of invasion, making war with them hard, although if you found their location from above-ground, digging into it and invading there would basically ruin them.

Just enough understanding of electricity to keep the Hydroponics running and light up the place for 8 hours every day. Any entertainment is brought back by scavengers or whatever was left over from before the apocalypse. The government would be a democratic dictatorship, aka everyone decides on things via direct voting, but if it the society is ever starting to fuck up or they go to war, a dictator is voted into power for the duration of the crisis, with a hard limit of two years before reverting to democracy with no chance of overturning.

Basically "Survivalist Ancient Rome, but underground."

It does go togethe with Nirvana, but it's less about nothing and more about absolute minimalism.

A militaristic republic/monarchy.
From a young age the citizens are exposed to military life, with all adults being in the reserves/national guard. Secondary school and up are all military schools and all government jobs are also military. There is no benefit or welfare because everybody is in the reserves.

You could have a beautiful socialist paradise like whfb brettonia

An anarchic post-scarcity society.

I don't know how it gets better than that, honestly.

Is it bad that I have no clue what my ideal society would be?
I mean, I know the sort of changes I'd make if I were in high office, but I honestly can't think of what systems I'd lay down if I was in a Lycurgus/Solon position.

I guess the early Roman republic was pretty cool. Everyone working for the good of the whole and all that. The only thing is such a society is only sustainable if there's an existential threat.
The late republic is cool too, but less to live in, more to read about

Eco-anarchism where everyone is armed and trained, close knit community more akin to a big ole family, the surrounding lands belong to everyone in our faction, justice is meted out by wandering judges who nominate random townsfolk as prosecutor and jury and the accused picks his own advocate (can self represent), and any authoritarian hierarchy is ruthlessly persecuted.

>The settings equivalent of Playboy Mansion survives the apocalypse mostly unharmed, the *bunnies* and manor attendants headed into the radiation proof manor as they look to the companies founder for advice and guidance

>Over the years following the founders death they begin to immortalize him, the rabbit ear taking on a new connotation due to the fact that nobody in the following generations would know what a Rabbit even is.

>They would form a tight nit, religious society where the symbols laid around the mansion of woman and rabbits are said to be shrines built for the Fertility god - the original company founder. The entire manor is rethought to be a giant temple for the man. Rabbit-Helmed Praetorians guarding temple as they let pilgrims come to and offer respects in exchange for a small tithe

Sounds like you're an idealist who needs a purpose, user!

How'd you like to liberate your fellow man, and maybe get first-term dibs on a governor position on conquered land?

That sounds pretty sweet user McWarlord.
Are we going full Roman republic or am I actually going to be paid? It'd help, seeing as I wouldn't have to embezzle to, yanno, afford food.

B-b-but we already live in that user!

You get full benefits and if you distinguish yourself you can rule a plot of land for an extended term so we can keep the area stable long enough to establish a more democratic government.

Also any loot that can't be scrapped for more infrastructure or belongs to future-citizens.

I think that's probably a good thing, really?

I mean, we don't, collectively, know all that much about designing institutions. We do know that some of the ones we've got now are the best we've had-- the "western liberal democracies." But it's very hard to say where we should go from here. Small steps, small experiments in policy, are probably safer than large ones.

So... the idea that you can specify some kind of perfect end state seems silly. It feels like an act of hubris to hold any particular scheme of social organization to be "ideal," although, as I said before, we have come up with some ideas that appear to be pretty good.

Probably something sorta like the Hanseatic league.

Everything is done democratically on the local level. The guys with money rule, but they've got to buy the votes, and they can't skimp, or the competition will out bid them.

The church has a big role too, but it's less golden candelabras and more social safety net.

Same with my extended family. Probably retreat to the wilderness of Wisconsin. After dragging some close friends along.

>Biker go gang raiders
>Chivalrists - medieval recreationists
These overlap quite a bit to be honest.
I wouldn't be surprised to see motorcycle gangs and chapters developing into feudal style kings and warlords.

That was actually the plot of a really shitty book. Technology stopped working and a medieval recreationist established a fuedal kingdom by recruiting gangs to be his knights and making the gang leaders his nobles.

I think a philosopher faction is always fun. I've been thinking about a "Brotherhood of Dogs" diogenes-esque league of assassins for a minor faction in a fantasy setting.

I agree. Personally I find law in general to be a necessary evil in the face of greater issues like inequality and instability.

I think a good system then would be one that's most open to other systems. A skeleton of federalism, where laws are most specific on the local level and catered to those who have to vote on and live under them, would probably be a good starting point.

Where you go from there is up in the air, in terms of moral priorities. Any society needs SOME kind of collective moral value, however loose, otherwise nobody cares to support the society. I know "knowledge" would definitely have to be a good focus for any society that wants to progress. A healthy respect for art and literature would also be good, since it helps to define a national identity and allow a steam-vent for political criticism.

Is this the book? The Portland Protection Association was the best faction by far.

Maybe take some of the factions we've gotten so far and flesh them out a bit? Figure out how big they are, and where they are located, and then look at any area we don't have an explanation for and start brainstorming about it?

That was the book, and I agree it probably was. Fuck the mics (and I say that as an Irishman, but fuck them that cunt trampled all over my heritage.) and fuck the bear fuckers as well.

It makes sense. They've already got a pretty strict internal code of ethics. And despite the stereotypes, they're smart enough to stay ahead of the law.

All it takes it's one group to start demanding tribute for not killing people to have the basics of a feudal system established.

>what is your ideal society

A country full of brainwashed masses who live their lives normally, but can not argue with me. What I say goes 100% of the time. The people are more or less free accept for their inability to disagree with me or disobey me. Have the brainwashing be engineered in such a way that performing tasks I set actually has a euphoric effect on them.

honestly that was the only group in the book that made sense in my opinion. Them I could understand the other two were just kinda "well hey wouldja look at that we've gone from a handful of people to a fucking civilization in a time skip."

What factions are you looking to have fleshed out? If make a list of what makes the cut first.

I really like this idea. If the corruption and vote buying is out in the open it's not really corruption.

>In the face of the growing Apilachian threat I will generously fund raising of the city wall one whole foot!
>I will raise the city wall two feet, and buy the city guard the two dozen crossbows they assured for!
>(Sweating profusely while counting campaign finances) I will personally fund the raising of two full squads of Free Lances and raise the cities walls two and three quarter feet!

Hell those are just campaign promises, it's not really that different from promising heath care or to reduce taxes.

So we have Appalacian/Cajun clans/tribes.

A Rome Analog

The theocratic state of Deseret.

A fascist regime lead by a warrior king

A bunch of small conclaves of various scientists and philosophers.

and a few cults of degenerates

That about right?

Speaking of making sense, I always wonder what happens to the Amish during the apocalypse.

Maybe some sort of loose alliance of vaguely theocratic states. They've certainly got the knowledge to survive, I guess there's a question of whether they're willing to commit violence to keep what they have.

If not maybe they get taken over by some more militant faction.

Yeah. But at the local level you've got to make good on your promises or at least appear to make the effort, or no one votes you in next time.

Can't say, don't know enough about the Amish. They probably wind up as some gangers peasants.

Or they turn into Fallout Hobbiton. Everyone thinks they're easy pickings because they're agrarian and down to earth, but any time some raider tries to invade they go all Amish Mafia up in this bitch.

Thing is that they have religious objections to tech right? That would include modern fire arms. Now in the long run things would equal out, but in the initial years of the appocalypse while people still had guns they would be unable to defend themselves. They would either be conquered or make a deal with someone to protect them in exchange for providing for them.

At least that is the way I see it.

Amish actually do own guns.

Except that unlike in our present system, if you don't fulfill your promises, the Apilachians will successfully invade and as an enemy leader, you know their policy for dealing with you...

Really? I thought anything made after like 1800 or something was a no no for them?

Try looking up Amish Mafia sometime.

Social darwinist eugenic state. It is virtuous to suffer for the sakentire of future generations.

A group dedicated to restoring a pre-apoc government.

How well they understand the government they're trying to restore is entirely up to you.

A society grows great when, trees, etc.

Isn't that a fake-umentery on the discovery channel?

Exactly. You can't always trust people to do the right thing, but you can trust them to act in self interest.

I was under the impression that was mostly for hunting and they have actual religious objections to violence. Although I might be getting Mennonites and Quakers confused in there.

stripped naked and dragged back to camp behind a donkey to work in the mines?

A place where I can meet people I don't like halfway by stabbing them to death.

I'd settle for one where people weren't complete dick's to each other all the time.

rip off alpha centauri, it's got them all

from religious zealots
youtube.com/watch?v=rX9OdR6hgEU
to space china
youtube.com/watch?v=U_hrYz_2uAk

He said semi-realistic user.