New shooting phase

Yeah. This was first thought. As assault infantry, they might be one of the best basic troopers now. Really buffs the orks a lot and allows one to play to their strengths.

So if you move within 1 inch of a squad before charging them, they cannot fire overwatch at you?

Plasma pistols seem to be back on the menu, if they are like 10 points.

ya it looks like gw is trying to make close combat viable again

never made sense to me that a unit in melee combat could not use a pistol against their enemy, I thought that was the whole point of bring a CQC weapon anyways

something im not very excited for however is the fact that bolters will no longer be able to instant go through light armour like guardsman and eldar guardians

assuming overwatch works the same way as before, yes. In fact I hope they make it so if you are within 6 inches you cannot overwatch, i never understood how a unit could bring their weapons to bear if they suddenly get bonzai rushed by a bunch of dudes.

Something that is also very interesting is that it seems the rules that you cannot be within an inch of another enemy unit are gone.
from the community page on shooting:
"You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you."

it sounds like it implies there will be situations were you can move within an inch of the enemy.

So I can move and fire my heavy bolters and hit on 4s? The fuck?

why did they make bolters worse :(

I guess that's why overwatch was always hitting on 6's to represent a unit not having time to accurately level their firearm at the oncoming rush.

I kinda like the new rule and I say that as a Ork player who has had a lot of success with Flashgitz in my games. Overwatch with assault 3, random ap was so so good, often no one wanted to rush them

>Why didn't they give my marines 4+ saves against basic guns?

Maybe they wanted you to actually get some use out of that armor?

No they mean if you move in the shooting phase you can't fire.

ya its great.

unless you planned on having your tactical squad be stationary the entire game, it did not make sense to bring anything besides blast weapons since you would always be on the move and always be snapping

and if heavy bolters still only fire 3 shots that meens on average your only gonna hit with 1 or two bullets.

what? no.

again what do you meen by this?

exactly my point, overwatch is just fucking insane at times

If i bring 6 black knights, thats 12 re-rollable strength 7 ap 2 shots your gonna have to take from overwatch. I have just straight blown away entire units in overwatch before, which is fucking stupid.

Unless you can't be within 1" of enemy models and the phrasing basically tells you to now attempt to claim overwatch on someone who has already assaulted you.

but you cannot shoot people within an inch of you, so you would not be able to overwatch anways if someone is assaulting you

Bro just think about it: if you put your tactical marines in a forest/crater/literally any type of cover they'll +1 to their armor save. They'll have the same armor save as terminators.

most likely the overwatch rule overrides the shooting rule, since it is more specific

>again what do you meen by this?

That if they gave Bolters enough AP to ignore guard armor, the changes to AP would make it so bolters blasted through power armor, along with all those other S 4 AP 5 infantry guns.

Is that what you really want? To deny guard their armor by ruining your own?

That would be even more horrible.

Having a vague rule where you have to agree what weapons should and should not ignore cover at the beginning of every game would be really bad.

Deciding what was plasma and what wasn't was bad enough. "flamer" weapons would be even worst.

I doubt many people will get to use their pistols in the shooting phase coming after their charge if units can, and you can bet your ass they will, disengage at the beginning of their turn

Yeah, but that's exactly my point.

IF, and I say if, you still can't move within 1" of an enemy model without assaulting then the rule only kicks in DURING the assault. Any enemy outside that 1" hasn't charged yet and can be overwatched.

are you retarded ?

It's not vague. Jesus, lots of weapons in 7e have special rules that aren't shown in their basic numerical profile. There's no reason to think flamers wont still ignore cover.

ya they will, but at the same time the weapon profiles are set up to have AP which makes it so that it can modify armour saves. And im glad anyways because space marines are lack luster and even though they have good armour if you shoot at them 1 million times they are still going to die, they are not survivable enough and this is a good change to prevent people from fielding armies of basically just elites and specials.

source? also overwatch is a type of shooting attack.

really? what if bolters were ap 1 and guard armour was a 6+ save? bolters would not blast through power armour, you could take a 4+, but would automatically go through guardian armour.

I get what your saying now, but the wording of the new shooting rules makes me believe that maybe they are getting rid of the 1 inch rule.

exactly, it would make the player make tactical decisions because as of right now, from the rules they have released, if you fall back (disengage from combat) you cannot shoot or charge. You would have to decide to either weather the attack or retreat your units, you know, like a wargame should be.

this
>i dont know man, is that weapon a flame weapon?
>its called an inferno pistol and is a small flame thrower.

Super curious about grav weapons.

>source? also overwatch is a type of shooting attack.
There is no source, I'm just guessing. I know it's a shooting attack, but it's not a shooting attack youre making in your shooting phase. And when it comes to GW, specific rules override general ones.

inferno pistols are meltas though

The issue is if the rulebook says "flamers ignore cover". What weapons does that include?

There are so many flame based weapons in 40k. Like a sword which fluff wise shoots fire, would that be a flamer?

assuming overwatch even functions like it does in 7th, or even exists at all, im sure they will specify you can not ovewatch if you are in close combat

ya i know, the second i hit submitt i realized that. also said guardian armour instead of guard armour.

Okay? So they just make a flamer keyword rule and tag it on to all weapons that utilize it. It's really not that hard.
>specify you can not ovewatch if you are in close combat
We're not talking about units that are already in combat, we're talking about units that get charged from 1 inch away.

They're doing a keyword system like AoS has for warscrolls. If you have the flamer keyword, you're a flamer. If you don't, you're not.

The thing is, the Flamer (and other flamer-type weapons) should have a note or a keyword that indicates they are flamers (besides being called flamers because: is a burna a flamer despite not having "flamer" in the name?)

im guessing that they are introducing key words the will probably just give them the flamer key word, this may just be a short hand version of the weapon profile.

ok, but if you get charged from one inch away, and exactly one inch away, you are still within one inch, and cannot be shot.

That's not the case if the overwatch rule says "you may fire overwatch at any unit that charges you" because that rule is more specific than the general rule

>exactly, it would make the player make tactical decisions because as of right now, from the rules they have released, if you fall back (disengage from combat) you cannot shoot or charge. You would have to decide to either weather the attack or retreat your units, you know, like a wargame should be.

if you disengage you lose less models and leave the enemy in the open to be shot at

it can barely be considered a tactical choice

>Jink
Since they said smoke launchers will become a hit modifier, I'm assuming (like another user said in another thread) that rules/abilities that gave you cover by way of obscuring you from the enemy somehow (stealth, shrouded, jink, smoke etc) will be a hit modifier.

Actual physical cover like terrain will give you a save modifier.

We can only hope. Good rules-writing requires a rigorously defined and limited words list, and this has always been a problem with GW's rules writing.

Or they may just make it part of cover. Weapons that auto-hit ignore cover.

>I for one am stoked that cover save is now an active modifier, not something you only get if your armour isnt good enough.

It should impose a penalty on the shooting unit's chance to hit, not increase the target's armour save. GW imposed the right change in a retarded way.

>Flamer literally stating that it only automatically hits
>Flamer fanboys still claim that flamer ignores cover too

Age of fire is over guys.

It looks like they are separating hard cover (barriers, armour bonus) and concealment (Smoke launchers, attack penalty)

Assuming that the pic we got is the actual weapons listing (i.e. that there isn't a keyword like "torrent" for flamer-type weapons) that would be the easiest/most-elegant way I can think of doing it.

again, im sure they will specify weather or not you can overwatch in such a case, or atleast release and FAQ on the matter if people abuse it.

what if you are on top of an objective? what if you disengage the assaulting player gets to make some sort of consolidation move? what if you disengage you can be sweeped? there are a lot of things you are considering.

i like the idea of this, it looks like bikes are getting a serious nerf, which they need.

I honestly think more of the problem is the fact that people purposely twist the words around to get an edge. 99% of the time if you are unsure of the wording of a rule, you really only need to think about the implications and "spirit" of the game to understand what they meant.

I can understand why they do it though. Think about it, if you are hiding behind a wooden pallet, your enemy would just shoot right through it to kill you, they wouldnt try to aim at the bits barely not covered by it.

This is a flamer profile as it currently exists in 7e. Please tell me where it says "ignores cover", such that a lack of that text on the 8e profile makes you think they won't ignore cover.

I was wondering if hand flamers are going to count for the pistol rules. I certainly hope so.

that would be fucking narly

Salamanders with flamer pistols and thunder hammers.

Ignore covers comes with it being a template weapon. So that rule is shown in the profile.

>really? what if bolters were ap 1 and guard armour was a 6+ save? bolters would not blast through power armour, you could take a 4+

Then you've done exactly what I said would happen. Making marine armor Whittier against basic guns just so you can ignore Guardsmen armor entirely.

How about instead, we just let everyone have their basic armor, and you live with killing 2 or 3 less guardsmen every shooting phase?

maybe they will state that weapons that automatically hit also ignore covers, makes sense enough to me, since if its automatically hitting you it probably does not care about cover.

Okay, but templates aren't in 8e. Meaning they would have to make a keyword to tag weapons that previously used templates.

Ouch.

But if cover is now a to hit modifier, wouldn't automatically hitting ignore cover?

So what's everyone else doing with their plasma pistols?

I'm sure chaos players have collected a sizable hull by now.

Cover is an armor modifier

your assuming that a bolter is a basic weapon, it may be that most armies weapons will be in the strength 3 region. in fact las guns may be strength three and no rapid fire or rank orders.

And so far we don't know if there is any extra parts to 'Automatically hits' as it's the replacement to the template.

Those just look awful.

I wonder if Tau breachers will get pistols.

I used all of mine as counts-as Plasmaguns on a squad of Chosen.

Might change that to being actual pistols this edition though, depending

>mfw noise weapons ignore cover

I still have all of them in their own section of my bits-box, I play Thousand Sons so I doubt I'll ever do anything with them.

They're not mine, I put the combi-plasma alongside the bolter barrel like a god damned civilized man. Also I chopped off the oversized bayonet. I didnt hate the bayonet, it simply got in the way.

>user stop fucking footslogging slugga boys theyre OP!
mfw the boyz are back.

But they already do that?

>Marines use Bolters
>Sisters use Bolters
>Chaos marines use bolters
>Necrons have Gauss, on par with bolters
>Eldar have Shuriken guns, same deal
>Tau have Pulse weapons, same deal

Even Tyranids have guns on warriors that get to S 4 AP 5. It's a very basic infantry profile.

Lasguns are the exception, not the rule

GUYS, LISTEN UP!

Ignores Cover is still in, in the shape of automatically hitting. Cover has been split into two modifiers. Shits that obscures you affects hit, physical cover affects your save.

Ignores cover is in the game by ignoring the hit modifiers any ObscureCover gives you, aka: hitting automatically. Cover as a save modifier is unaffected.

Wonder what they'll do with guass

>Ignores Cover is still in, in the shape of automatically hitting. Cover has been split into two modifiers. Shits that obscures you affects hit, physical cover affects your save.
Literally not the case

I replaced the bayonets on mine with multi-melta barrels (from the old loyalist devastator kit) to make combi meltas.

Well, we don't know yet. People are declaring both as true but we don't know for sure.

>TFW Leafeblower Gard is back

>TFW Fish'O'fury is back

>TFW Rino Rush is back

Bonus damage (so multiple wounds) on rolls of six is my guess. Might be mortal wounds if their feeling like kicking things up a notch but somehow I doubt it.

> You can't shoot models closer than 1 inch to you, except with pistols.

Okay that sounds reasonable enou-

> You can't shoot units engaged in close combat at all.

So... a pistol is only useful for the very rare scenario where a model is less than 1 inch closer to you but not engaged in combat... doesn't make much sense to me.

I expect 2 wounds on a 6, to maintain the anti-vehicle function

Consider it informed guesswork. We know certain shit that gives you a cover save is a hit modifier, we know actual physical cover boosts your save and we know a previously IC weapon automatically hits. 1+1

You can use pistols in close combat dummy

right from the community page

"You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!"

pistols are an exception.

>We know certain shit that gives you a cover save is a hit modifier,
It's literally the exact opposite and they've said it on two different occasions. Cover is an armor modifier. That's it.

Units with pistols can now shoot in the shooting phase while in combat, so long as they have pistols.

Previously, anyone locked in combat skips the shooting phase entirely. Now, those expensive plasma pistols can shot, giving you an extra edge before the enemy can even swing.

It basically fluctuates between gun-fu and melee.

It's literally been said in today preview.

Yes but we don't know the actual cover rules, just a small overview. I mean, we don't even know enough of the wording that (If this was 7e) we'd know 'Templates ignore cover'.

Yet they also stated that popping smoke launchers will obscure your vision and provide you with a hit modifier. And also moving, shit that previously made you snap shot, is also a hit modifier. consider Invisibility and the Culexus ability makes him wispy and also makes you snap shoot him, I'm inclined to believe ObscureCover is a hit penalty.

I really hope so. Dual hand flamer sisters doing 2d6 hits before combat world be great. Maybe even worth the 70pt price tag. Lol

That what I was thinking too. The -1 to hit on heavy weapons on vehicles sucks, but it's amazing for the heavy weapons in the back.

Heavy weapons getting more mobile is going to be a big game changer.

Alright that's good to hear. I looked the article but it explicitly said you can't shoot into engaged units.

You need to learn how to read. Cover is cover. Shit like smoke launchers are obscuring effects. They aren't the same thing. Cover is armor. Whatever else that might give a -to hit is just shit like stealth, smoke, etc

>Cover has been divided into actual physical cover and obscuring things that grant penalities to hit

>You need to learn how to read. Cover is cover. Shit like smoke launchers are obscuring effects.

How does it feel to actually be retarded?

Meant for

You're not understanding me, maybe it's my fault.

Currently, any sort of obscuring effect or physical terrain gives a blanket save called Cover. In 8th, they are separating some of these effects (as they should) from this blanket save, turning them to hit modifiers and making the rest give you a flat save modifier.

So I can surmise that flamers not longer "ignore cover" as that was a blanket statement. Now they might "ignore obscuring effects", hence the auto-hits.

Which is a nerf and a buff in a way. Templates always hit but with hit modifiers becoming a thing, they're also more useful.

Yes, that user is retarded.

Who else think that pistols won't grant their extra attack anymore?

Maybe, though I could see some units needing extra attacks to compensate. Assault marines, for example, already get 4 'attacks' by shooting their pistol before charging in.