ARMS AND ARMOUR THREAD

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>Some ramblings and random thoughts on Ming Chinese armies in tabletop wargaming
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/100th-post-p1.html

>Although I hated the shield with a passion, this one is arguably worse. This guy is wearing an outfit that is totally unrecognizable to me. If I have to make a hard guess, I will probably say Tang Dynasty, with a weird Karate black belt. He is also wielding a handgonne, also known as pole gun, without the pole.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/11/101st-post-p2.html

greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/08/myth-of-shan-wen-kia.html

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Anyone have anything Indian/Persian/Mughal?

Also forward curving swords are cool

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What the hell is with those sawteeth?

Requesting non-Katana Japanese weapons.

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Looking cool I suspect.

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I dont think these next two are authentic at all but they certainly look cool

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quick rundown on this thing?

Woven fibre armour (coconut I've heard) to protect against the plentiful (though possible somewhat shallow) lacerations of the shark tooth weaponry used.

This guy looks like a bad motherfucker, but he seems unsure of himself.

Don't be afraid, spike guy. You're cool.

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/r/ing magitech or steampunk guns.

This one I designed looks too futuristic I think.

And here's a vaguely Asian Monk zombie, though he lacks armor.

>quoted the wrong post
fug I don't have anything else Asian themed so here's an overdesigned Ranger.

He has the tense look of a man with a bent spike pointing dangerously close to his junk.

what the fuck kinda madman formation is that!?
WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT POLEARM!?

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thanks for links

The mandarin duck formation, it has many variants.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2015/03/mandarin-duck-formation-p1.html
It's essentially a small unit formation to fight pirates with militias. It also seems to be useful in the narrow pathways between rice paddies and equally narrow wheelbarrow roads of old China.

greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/unique-weapon-of-ming-dynasty-lang-xian.html
>Lang Xian (狼筅, can be written as 筤筅, lit. 'Wolf brush'), sometimes translated as "wolf bamboo" and "multiple tipped bamboo spear", is arguably the MOST uniquely Chinese weapon ever devised. It is essentially an extremely long bamboo shaft mounted with an iron spike, with branches and leaves still attached. The branches are sometimes fire hardened or attached with blades and hooks and smeared with poison.
>Lang Xian is a heavy and unwieldy weapon, and deals very little damage on its own. However if used in conjunction with other weapons, it turns into a very potent force multiplier.

You're welcome.

BTW, if you that's mad, check this one.

Also this one

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Hey lads. I know this might not be the right place to ask but fuck it. You guys seem knowledgeable enough.
How would one go about making a somewhat realistic representation of armor in an RPG game?
I'm using RPG maker and using extensive use of plugins to try to create a low HP rpg where armor is very important, just like IRL.
Right now I've got some custom stats and attack formulas. Basically how it's implemented right now is that each armor has a primary armor value and more expensive armors may have a secondary value.
So basically the attacker's ATK is pitted against the defender's armor value. The atk plus a random number from 1-10 is pitted against the static defense. If the combined number ATK number is greater it goes to the second defense value if there's any. If it passes that the attack pierces the armor and deal damage. Say an ATK of 5 would deal somewhere between 3-7 damage. Of course there's also other values like armor piercing and certain weapon types being better for certain armors.
Does that sound somewhat realistic?
Again, I apologize if this is the wrong thread.

Oh and if the value of defense is lower the attack is deflected and the defender gets no damage.

Are you the same guy who made a thread about this last year?

If not, I'll upload the same d20 pdfs I did for him.

No. I'm another guy looking trying to make a more old school style crpg in RPG Maker. I have the resources and the plugins, it's just that I wanted to aim for a more realistic system and I'd imagine you folk are more knowledgeable on these kinds of systems. If you'd be so kind I' appreciate it.

Ok. Do you think this will be useful?

If so, I'll upload the rest.

Reminder that Osprey's depictions of Ming soldiers are severely outdated and of less than stellar quality.

See Huashou Zhongguo lidai jiazhou for a more recent source(unfortunately,their Ming stuff has issues as well)
warosu.org/tg/thread/27560731#p27560731
warosu.org/tg/thread/27574792

>This guy is wearing an outfit that is totally unrecognizable to me.
The outfit depicted is actually shown in Jun Qi Tu Shuo,not sure about the colors though.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/01/ming-chinese-arquebusier-tactics.html

Ming soldiers used a variety of coats(some sleeveless and of varying length) as uniforms. See Joseon era Koreans for a similar practice.

Song era cataphract armor was retained by officers in the south and occasionally used in the north as well.

I'll check out, thanks. If you want to post the rest that's fine.

I checked what seem to be the best systems for you to read:

>Song of Swords

>HârnMaster

>Runequest6
>To cut short, RQ6 has the most realistic combat system without being too simulationistic and that's actually very playable.

If none of these helps, you might try to make a thread stating your need on Veeky Forums. Some will say you shouldn't, but there'll be people which offer better help than mine, or to discuss how to optimize what you're doing.

here. The site I quoted is the very same you used as a source. I don't know what to make of this, except that it seems amusing somehow.

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Not this guy >I don't know what to make of this, except that it seems amusing somehow.
More that whoever illustrated that particular Osprey volume referenced poor sources and doesn't understand how armor was worn.

The handgunner's outfit was some of sort of standard uniform for ranged contingents while conveniently leaving out the scarf and hat...

Chink two-handed jian sword.
251 cm long. You read that right.
NOT a ceremonial or processional weapon. The design is too utilitarian for that shit.

>The outfit depicted is actually shown in Jun Qi Tu Shuo,not sure about the colors though.

The devil's in the detail. This is how the clothing should look. (Note: Photo is probably a Tang Dynasty version).

Many traditional (pre-Qing) Chinese clothing have a visible join line at the center of the cloth, where two pieces of cloths are stitched together. They are however NOT opened at the middle, but somewhere near the right armpit.

Can I make a request for some early crusade militant order and saracen armor?

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>Photo is probably a Tang Dynasty version
Surprisingly,Osprey's made the right decisions ,"Illustrations show gunners in this type of long robe,which may conceal armor,despite its seeming unsuitability for a man who had to work in proximity of lighted matches".

The late Ming Jun Qi Tu Shuo depicts crossbowmen and arquebusiers with this type of coat,though the Ospreys does not include the scarf and the felt? hat.

The Tang era round collared robe you linked has no visible frontal opening and has a side split.

>They are however NOT opened at the middle, but somewhere near the right armpit.
This has nothing to do with the front opening surcoats/armor that was worn over other clothing.

Unfortunately,that's not even close to what was worn during the Imjin War.

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Korean side on things:
youtube.com/watch?v=bLz0kP89CCc

Not sure about the Ming China's side on Things.
There is a curious lack of Rocket-cart (Rocket-arrow spam) and hand-held rocket arrows/hand cannons (Favored in the north)

I always found it funniest that for all people love to rag on Japanese infantry equipment, their armor and weapons, their primary failure in the Imjin War was *naval*.

The Korean infantry at the time were weak and ill-disciplined, at times cowardly (Often running away when the Japanese started their Banzai Charges)

The Japanese matchlock out-ranged the Korean bow & Arrow.
(The Koreans failing to adopt such innovation despite knowing of the benefits)

Korean walls were low-walls and easily scale-able.
It is only after the Ming Chinese intervened that the Japanese got pushed back on land.

No, i am just saying that the Osprey "coat" that's opened at the center is shit. That's also not a surcoat worn over normal clothing. THAT IS the normal clothing.

Also, traditional Chinese clothing almost never have different colored border (i.e. different color at the neckline, cuff, center-opening etc).

>No, i am just saying that the Osprey "coat" that's opened at the center is shit.
How is it shit? Osprey may have omitted some details but the fact remains that this type of clothing was used during the late Ming.

>That's also not a surcoat worn over normal clothing. THAT IS the normal clothing.
As far as I'm aware plainclothes was either the traditional cross collared garments(duan he),round collared robes(yuanling pao) or Mongolian derived clothing(terlig,yesa etc.)

The coat depicted is not the round collared robe of the Tang dynasty.

>Also, traditional Chinese clothing almost never have different colored border (i.e. different color at the neckline, cuff, center-opening etc).
I agree with the lack of different colored lining(except for armor),the Zhaojia styled front opening clothing was derived from Mongolian influences.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/06/scale-and-lamellar-armours-of-ming.html

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>Korean side on things
There's actually not a lot of information on Imjin era Joseon armaments,there are woodblock prints depicting Joseon soldiers with the old
Song style cataphract armor.

>Not sure about the Ming China's side on Things.
Ming soldiers were,for the most part,northern cavalry/mounted infantry.

The Ming as well as the Later Jin used cotton,brigandine(a single surcoat or a two piece waistcoat with faulds),mail and lamellar(surcoat form) and a dazzling array of helmets with feathered plumes,tassels and flaglets.

The initial southern soldiers(infantry) wore a white headband with a cloth/paper surcoat.

>their primary failure in the Imjin War was *naval*.
As the Japanese never really had to deal with massed shock cavalry,they consistently under performed against Ming cavalry in field battles.

Byeokjegwan was a Japanese victory though the elite Ming force of 5,000 vs 30,000+
managed to inflict disproportionate casualties on the Japanese vanguard.

Jiksan was mainly a stalemate but the Ming were able to check the Japanese advance.

>It is only after the Ming Chinese intervened that the Japanese got pushed back on land.

Pretty much. Though even after the Chinese got involved, the Japanese still acquitted themselves well in several battles and sieges.

If by "coat" you mean "Knee-length robe with relatively narrow long sleeves and round collar", yes, those were used. But they look nothing like the Osprey picture.

The "Northern Song round collar" you posted is actually opened at the side. Notice how it has a front-back dress instead of a left-right one like the osprey.

>Byeokjegwan was a Japanese victory though the elite Ming force of 5,000 vs 30,000+ managed to inflict disproportionate casualties on the Japanese vanguard.

Indeed, though that initial clash was a massive bloodbath for both sides; every account of it I've read (Chinese, Korean, and Japanese all included) says that the Ming elites suffered more casualties than the Japanese did before the Japanese pulled back their advance units, had arquebusiers open up into the Ming forces, then a final rush sent them retreating.

All Japanese primary sources claimed a kill count of tens of thousands to several MILLIONS to "every single one of them". That is, enough to kill the entire Ming army at Korea several times over.

So jarring, that even the most conservative estimate (from the Japanese side) is till 6000 (more than the total number of Ming troops present)

>But they look nothing like the Osprey picture.
>The "Northern Song round collar" you posted is actually opened at the side. Notice how it has a front-back dress instead of a left-right one like the osprey.
That's my entire point,the Osprey robe isn't the round collared robe but the coat shown in

If you read my previous replies I've already addressed this >The Tang era round collared robe you linked has no visible frontal opening and has a side split.

As the Osprey doesn't actually quote the source they used either they are using a source such as Jun Qi Tu Shuo or they happened to make a mistake that turned out to match a different source.

>says that the Ming elites suffered more casualties
No,we don't actually know the amount of Ming casualties because Li Rusong purposely under reported and the primary source(Jinglue Fuguo Yaobian) also states that alot of the missing men were able to regroup with the main force.

The Korean source(Seonjo Sillok) is a second hand account by a southern Ming general who never actually participated in the battle.

The Japanese sources are completely unreliable,they over inflate their enemies as well as the amount of Ming dead(Just as the Ming did to the Japanese).

It's actually far easier to calculate Japanese casualties,Nihon Senshi has a headcount of Japanese soldiers with the Tachibana suffering heavy casualties.
historum.com/asian-history/46431-chinese-contribution-imjin-war-overlooked-29.html

>No,we don't actually know the amount of Ming casualties because Li Rusong purposely under reported

That's what his superiors accused him of, anyway. No real way to know. Still, every account seems to say that the Ming ate it worse than the Japanese did.

>All Japanese primary sources claimed a kill count of tens of thousands to several MILLIONS to "every single one of them"

Not all of them, actually, just the ones from later on in the Edo period. The contemporary ones for Byeokjegwan actually only claim 6,000 killed. Then there's a later one with an absolutely *hilarious* figure of 20,000. Damn near two thirds of the *entire fucking Ming force* in the theater.

Most of which were probably Korean civilians and Korean Soldiers under Joint command of Ming China/Joseon Korea.

Actually some later battles show a much higher number of Ming troops than Korean auxiliaries. Like, the 1598 siege of Sacheon involved around 21,000-30,000 Chinese troops and only about 2,200 Koreans.

>That's my entire point,the Osprey robe isn't the round collared robe but the coat shown in

I think I get your point now, although I still maintain that Osprey robe look nothing like it is supposed to be.

That is some extreme fabrication right there.

>Not all of them, actually, just the ones from later on in the Edo period.

As far as I am aware, the most conservative 6000 kill count come from 19~20th century history books, not contemporary accounts.

>The Japanese matchlock out-ranged the Korean bow & Arrow.
While the statement is generally true, it is not "Japanese" arquebus that outrange "Korean bow". It is "arquebus outrange bow". Period.

Korean pyeonjeon still outrange arquebus though.

The Japanese arquebus is more accurate, has longer range, greater penetrative capabilities and reloads faster (Apparently), according to Japanese and Korean records.

>Korean pyeonjeon still outrange arquebus though.
But can it pierce Japanese armor and inflict a deadly/crippling blow at that range?