Horus Heresy General /hhg/

I thought the traitor provenances with mass levies was the cheese option.

Gorgon or two would be of use. I'd use Malcadors over Russes. A pimped out Malcador is not that more expensive than a Russ and a Demolisher, but has a lot better odds of surviving and do some damage.

A malcador pimped out with siege armour and a void shield costs just as much as two pimped out russes
May eventually buy two because they are beast, but for now it's a money limitation
I see malacadors in almost every militia list, are they really that good? Because on paper they seem to be fantastic

>Levi's and cult hoards
Yeah I mean I'm playing "cheap S3 T3 space marines with better guns" cheese, not "I want to be shunned by everyone at my game store" cheese

Flair shield* malcadors cannot take void shields lol

Pls post pics.

Malcador:
>Battlecannon, Demolisher Cannon, Lascannon sponson
>Flare Shield, Armoured Ceramite, Siege Armour
340pts.

Russ squadron:
>MBT, hull lascannon
>Demolisher, hull lascannon
320pts.

Same guns, but the Malcador can fire all of its guns and at different targets, has extra protection on the front and is immune to Melta.

Damn what a beast, I'll be buying one in the next couple months
that is if my 30k scene doesn't start to decay

Also side note does the battle canon malcador even come with a demolisher or will I need to kitbash it?

Hang on, let me clear up and have the latest one dry and sure. They take forever to do, since I need to take a base model, remove a fuckton of Tzeench bits and decoration, slice off some of the armour plates and all the usual flaws, cut and realign a Kataphron arm to go on the right shoulder and then greenstuff on heads, cybernetic arms and get the Kataphron claws together. Been working on them for three days and I've only finished 7/20.

Not that I'm aware of. I'd probably buy the Annihilator variant, since it's easier to fit a battle cannon into the casemate than try and fit a demolisher into the hull mount.

Why does HH like making rules for models or weapon options that don't exist? I guess they think the fan base is that kitbashing and conversion savvy?

Alright, I'm looking forward to see pics. Will you kit bash a wacky Magos as well?

I'm currently washing the metals on my IW tyrants.

Thats not a stretch for a customer base that has to shave, clean, and even repair its FW kits.

But they do. Lascannon casemate and demolisher hull is a valid loadout as much as battle cannon casemate and hull autocannon/lascannon.

Why do they like it? I dunno, why would a company make it so that people have to buy two kits?

The malcador was made in different iterations. There was the defender with 5 heavy bolters on top. Then there was the variant with the battle cannon and lastly the annihilator variant with the demolisher hull gun. Each was its own vehicle (like how godhammer, crusader and redeemer are for the Land Raider). It wasn't until 30k that you could just field one variant with all the options.

Here's the current gang of zombots. These were pretty experimental but I think I've got the pattern down now. Ones with shoulderpads I decided look a little janky, so the newer ones have them removed.

Going to run out of Kata heads after two more, so they'll be a mix of skittles and Ruststalkers from then on. Probably going to do one more Wolverine-pattern guy and mix in some Thunder Hammers and Arc Mauls with the rest.
There will be a custom Archmagos with them, whether I start him soon depends on how much spare toy money I wind up with on my birthday after paying for car stuff.

Side/back views featuring crappy greenstuffing, but hopefully when they're painted it'll look more like scar tissue around the augments.

Time to make a Sister of Silence Centura

>posting AOS in /hhg/

At worst, use the head and legs. I plan to mix pieces ofher with Celestine and her Geminae to make a centerpiece commander.

How many points make for a 'normal' 30k game? Is there a tournament standard?
And what FAQ are we using? Do we do the last one for 7th, or the earlier one on the FW website?
Where do we stand on how many Meltabombs we can use?

Your average game of 30k is 2.5k to 3k.

Use the last one for 7th.

Isn't the last instance we heard per model if an entire squad can buy them?

>that moment when the whitescars book is an eternity from now

Kill me.

Just what I needed at this hour... fappin' time.

But that's every moment.
That said, couldn't /hhg/ put it's heads together to come up with some WS rules?

No dreadnoughts as a legion rule.
RoW that makes bikes compulsory Troops and all other units must take a transport.

>Posting in /hhg/ when HH is a dying game

>It should be noted that Pride of the Legion is a pretty bad Rite of War.
I don't think it's ever bad! Veterans and Terminators are more points efficient than pretty much all of the usual Troops choices, so it consistently works well unless you want a lot of vehicles.

The Sons of Horus Veterans maximize the rite's benefits due to their legion rules, so yeah, they're even better with it. But it's one of the top rites along with Orbital Assault, Armored Breakthrough, and probably the jetbike one.

>I always seem to see contemptors with both weapons the same.
Those are Contemptor-Mortis dreads, usually used as anti-air that's cheaper (and significantly less effective) than Deredeos.

If they're near your infantry, especially Termies, they're fine. Alone, they're too easy to tarpit in close combat. That's the reason you don't see many shooty-only Leviathans anymore, too.

We have perfectly fine WS rules (that maybe need a little cleaning up), what we need are unique units.

>homebrew rules
>usable in games

pick one

Speaking of WS, I just noticed how their power glaives just shit all over phoenix and guardian spears. Pretty impressive.

So I've heard custodians are pretty much game breaking, is this accurate? How do they do against massed numbers like militia or solar auxilia?

>Some form of guerilla troop
>Badass bullock pattern jetbike squadron

Gimme it.

Militia can beat everything because Zealot and Rending are incredible but yeah, Custodes are fantastic against legion armies.

Shittily, just like they do against flyers.
Custodes have one overpowered, undercosted tank and undercosted jetbikes, beyond that they are basically limited to brutalizing small elite forces as they lack the volume of damage to deal with hordes or vehicles reliably.

They brawl like motherfuckers and can tank stupid amounts of damage, but they have glaring weaknesses. They can't deal well with hordes, 2+ saves trouble them, they have no AA at all and handling objectives is kind of a crapshoot.
Mind you, all of that goes right out the window when you bring their floaty doom tank that costs pennies and rips apart just about anything.

Female stormcast eternals makes sense from a lore perspective I guess, but if GW tries this SJW shift into 40k with femarines people will go apeshit

I 10/10 approve of GW giving the sisters of silence an army tho.

So I started 40k right at the tail end of 7th with Skitarii, so I never got to see how it really played. What was so bad about ot that it's apparently going to be the death of HH? I've seen bits of the options that some of 7th's armies had, especially Renegades and Imperial cults for HH, and they seem way more interesting than their 8th ed showing, so what's up with 7th?

If you're Marines and haven't packed a whole bunch of armour, prepare for a royal ass-fucking since their whole army can deepstrike and hack you apart with S5 AP3 Rending basic melee on T5 W2 Terminators. Against Solar Auxilia they struggle if the Dracosans and such are properly bubblewrapped, and against Ordo Reductor with their tides of artillery, cheap cover-reducing Haywire, Intercepting big guns and cheap Fearless 4+ Sv. tarpits they're perhaps their worst off.
They do decently against Cybernetica since basically nobody gets armour saves in melee and the AP3 maulers bounce off them while they can fish for ID Heliothermic kills, but they still struggle to wound reliably and the enemy will probably still have the Adsec tarpits. Basically nobody is dying any time soon.

Against Militia with their 50-man Zealot Rending blobs and cheap tonks they're completely fucked unless they brought Aquilons kitted precisely for that job, which are kinda hyperspecialised.
My "Fuck You Bananas" list that I only use when I really want something dead is Ordo Reductor artillery grav Interceptor fuckfest feat. Droplites, allied to 100 of the aforementioned Militia Levies, although to be fair that does a good job at killing pretty much anything.

Unless the Custodes bring nothing but the massively undercosted Caladii and jetbikes, plus maybe a Telemon or two and probably the new dropship when the retarded thing is released, led by the 3++ rerollable 4W EW Captain with a bunch of S10 melee. Then pretty much everyone is completely fucked by cheap units of W2 T6 2+ bikes with two lascannons or a multishot AP2 ID gun each and massively buffed Sicarans.

Currently their most obvious and easily exploited weakness is a severe lack of anti-air, so Raven Guard and similar do very well. Given the new flyer appears to have two of the Caladius anti-armour cannon as wing mounts, that probably won't last too long.

Fucking why can't apothecaries have other power weapon options besides swords? I want to make my apothecaries double as Speakers of the Dead for larger games (to fill in that mandatory 1 HQ per 1000pts.) but apothecaries can only have swords and Speakers of the Dead have mauls.

Would using something like a thunder hammer shaft with some backpack icon/standard top on the end of it as a "icon of office" while the model carried a sheathed sword on their belt work?

What legion lets me nuke and forever fuck up my opponent?

shes a bit too big to use as a non augmented human no?
Its a good head though, I can use that.

The 7th edition core rules are basically fine - it's what Horus Heresy is currently running. The problem was the formation based army building that GW started to go nuts for around the time Necrons came out. Like, Skitarii had a great formation that was only in a White Dwarf and required formations from three different armies to get massive, incredible bonuses. So 7th edition became pay to win, effectively. On top of this, it became a nightmare to balance and remember, because you didn't just need to know a few USRs and your army special rules, you needed to know each individual's formation rules, the Decurion-level rules, and all your opponents' rules as well, because the formation rules didn't overlap. Horus Heresy immediately became an escape for everybody burned out on the mess that 7th edition became.

However, Horus Heresy was having (and continues having) its own problems. Release timetables were frequently delayed, models were made seemingly at random (Rogal Dorn still doesn't have a model for instance). I think Inferno really burned a lot of people out because it was like every FW problem condensed into one book: it had been delayed for months, the balance was poor, there were editing problems, and the power creep was absolutely insane. Compare Magnus and the Sekhmet to any other legion's equivalent and see if it feels fair.

When 8th edition came out, HH died almost overnight because they had gotten rid of what people really hated about 7th, began offering the core rules for free, and started that rapid-fire errata and FAQ process. They turned over a new leaf and people went crazy for it. Now Alan Bligh is dead and the next planned release is over a year away. HH might not be totally dead by then but it's definitely got one foot in the grave.

Well, that seems rough. Thing is, I decided that for 8th I'd go ahead and try a new army for it, Heretics and Renegades. I don't know if you've seen their rules, but they don't allow anywhere near the customization I hoped for after hyping myself up reading Siege of Vraks, and seeing the rules for Militia in HH looks alot like what I had wanted, yet it seems there's no community for HH around here to justify starting. I guess my rebel army will just have to be fluff for now. Oh well, at least we have Primaris marines.

>That moment when you get into the horus heresy just as it starts its downward decline.

Well fuck me.

>allied to 100 of the aforementioned Militia Levies
What models do you use for your levies?

it is the same for me.

I'm worried about that too. If the legs or torso work with SoS models I'm super down. If not I can make something work.

Custodes are done and while I wait for their next stuff to become available it's time to paint some Fists.

>2 female models for AOS Stormcast Eternals
>is SJW

You're actually retarded, jumping at bogey men, desperate to win a culture war as some kind of crusader for idiocy.

congrats on hitting the nail on the head, its a bad RoW because its better then any alternative at anytime.

geez I don't know, maybe the chemical warfare legion?

Vampire Counts Ghouls, with the odd cybernetic part here and there in the units to jazz them up a little. Did think about clanrats, but they don't really have the right look despite being really damn cheap.

It's not as bad as most anons here make it seem. Even at it's highpoint, whether you would be able to find a Heresy community in your area was largely up to chance. Groups of players with the budget and experience to collectively build and play 3+k HH armies are by their nature a rarity. The FW HH rules have never been pushed at GW stores and almost everyone who started out with HH at least had some experience with 40k.

Whether or not you will find someone to do 30k with depends largely on the same factors as it did one or two years ago. The most important one being your own social skills.

For myself: There's a group of roughly 15 people around my local store who have all built a 3k HH army. The last couple of months a lot of people want to try out the new 8th edition 40k rules so were doing a campaign for that, but we already have 2 other HH events planned this year. Probably going to do a new HH campaign in 2018.

Customization will happen if/once they get a codex. For armies using an index, it's early days yet. Similar thing happened when 3rd edition came out.

Build a 40k army that can mostly be ported over to HH, and listen to the HH podcasts to learn about events near you.

I second this post .
You can build a Custodes army that isn't broken, by avoiding those shields, the medium grav-tank, the large dread, and the jetbikes. Or least not taking enough of those to carry the army. Normal Custodes with spears aren't considered too bad, nor the Termies or especially the heavy support guys with heavy bolter-like weapons.

You can upgrade the Speaker of the Dead's bolt pistol to a power sword (you'd still have the maul though).

This looks fine. Strictly speaking, there isn't anything you "should" do. Depending on what direction you want to take the army in, most things work with a little bit of work for... any Legion, really.

DG rules lend themselves quite well for infantry blobs, what with them being very strong morale-wise. If you want to play "The Reaping" I would recommend 2x minimum squads of tacticals with rad-grenades and combi-flamers for the Sergeants. Usually I'm a fan of large blobs of tacticals/assault marines, but 1) your RoW lends itself well to using other, more expensive units instead and 2) at the moment your model count is somewhat limited.

The remaining 10 guys I would build as a HW support squad. Consider buying, sculpting or converting heavy flamers for them - 10 heavy flamers with Shred will annihilate most any infantry in the game through sheer amount of wounds caused, and charging that unit won't be terribly attractive either.

Grave Wardens are great, though I can't remember if they were over-costed or not. You'll want the chem-flamer, of course.

At this point your army will destroy infantry of all flavours with flamer death or power fists in melee, so you'll probably want to give your Contemptor the multi-melta. I can't remember if a Contemptor can upgrade it's heavy flamer with chem-munitions, but obviously, if it can do that, go for it.

This is a list that'll struggle against tanks and flyers, so you might want to consider getting some anti-air/more anti-tank.

What about the Legion that nuked the Salamanders and their Primarch to ashes?

death guard do all the chemical stuff better then the IW (including fun warcrime flamers) while the IW's one party trick is that they don't run, and that their dusa's are more accurate, otherwise anything IW can do warcrimewise the DG can do (harder)

Warcrimes are wasteful though. You don't see IW walking through phospex to show off how much shit they can take, and they're smart enough not to paint their armour like used toilet paper.

they don't walk through phosophex because they're busy dying to imperial fists in a stupid fight for the title of "maximum retard" at the iron cage. or getting shreked by the fists at phall. the deathguard has no humiliating defeats in its history, and while morty is a sack of hypocrisy at least he does not have autism.

Literally the entire history of the Death Guard is a humiliating defeat. Their entire schtick is that they're tough enough to survive their retard-tier grasp of strategy and tactics. No-one likes them other than the Sons of Horus, and that's just because their space-dads were friendly. They aren't even on good terms with the Mechanicum. They got shit on by the Salamanders at Isstvan (who were then nuked by the Iron Warriors), they got space-AIDS on the way to Terra, they failed to do anything noteworthy during the Siege itself, and since then they've accomplished all of jack shit. It took Abaddon ripping a tear in the face of the galaxy to get their asses in motion.

Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors near-single handedly shattered the Salamanders, made it possible for the Traitors to even reach Terra with their mastery of organisation, supply lines and garrisons, brought down the walls of the Imperial Palace, didn't flee straight to the Eye of Terror after Horus popped it (unlike the DG), corrupted new Astartes to Chaos/treason for the first time after the HH, built the daemonculaba and in general are the most organised Legion.

blacklibrary.com/all-products/grandfathers-gift-ebook.htm

So Guy Haley is writing the Doom of the Death Guard. How do you feel about that?

Yeah decimating your own legion is real efficient

It is when you have the pure geneseed and the organisational skills to compensate. Only the Ultramarines and pre-Rangdan DA were ever more numerous, and this is taking the Iron Warriors often very high casualties into account.

Interesting. I just finished the short story. It shows how the Realm of Chaos makes mockery of linear time.

Also it as funny seeing Mort and Ku'gath debate magic.

>actually trying to defend Perty's decimation
wooow

>Kill 1 in 10 of your own men
>Gain no benefit
>this is somewhow a good thing
Iron Warriors everybody!

>near-single handedly shattered the Salamanders
Where exactly are you getting this from?

During the dropsite massacre the Iron Warriors nuked the Salamanders and killed most of them, including their Primarch - it didn't stick with him, though.

>No benefit
It changed the spirit of the Legion from workhorse to anything for victory, which was precisely what he wanted. Depending on how Astartes psychology works (if it's like ours) it probably made them more inclined to follow orders as well, since the survivors would have considered themselves bound by guilt to each other.

they nuked Vulkan yes, but there's nothing to say that that killed more Sallies than the Death Guard or any other traitor legion did, you're reaching here.

>Decimating your legion to so they do what you want

Perty fans everyone. I thought I was bad as a NL player.

I'm not sure where I first read it, but their wiki article mentions that:

"Battle Companies followed in the wake of their lords, captains roaring the attack as thousands of green-armoured warriors chased up the slope to kill the sons of Perturabo. Withering crossfire from both the north and south faces of the Urgall Depression cut down hundreds in the first few seconds of deceit. The XVIII Legion was shedding warriors like a snake sheds scales. But still they drove on, determined not to back down. Tenacity was a Salamander's greatest virtue -- that refusal to give in. Upon the plains of Istvaan V, against all of those guns, this quality almost ended the XVIII Legion. Only as the majority of the Salamanders crested the first ridge, did they first see the arc of fire. It trailed, long and blazing, into the darkling sky. The tongue of flame climbed and upon reaching the apex of its parabola bent back on itself into the shape of a horseshoe. Rockets screaming, it came down in the midst of the charging Salamanders and broke them apart."

"... As a bell jar shatters when dropped onto rockcrete from a great height, so too did the Legion smash apart. "

"...In a single devastating strike, the Lord of Iron had crippled the XVIII Legion, severed its head and sent its body into convulsive spasm. Retreat was the only viable strategy remaining. Droves fell back to the dropsite, trying to climb aboard ships that were surging desperately into the sky to outreach the terrible storm of betrayal below. It was not a rout, though for any force other than the Legiones Astartes it would have been, faced with such violence. Many were cut down as the traitors threaded the air with enough flak to wither an armada."

You're confusing a fondness for the IV Legion and an understanding of just what the decimation accomplished for me liking Perturabo. I dislike him just as I dislike all the Primarchs.

>40kWiki
>no citations
great

>actually thinking decimation is a good idea
well you already sound as stupid as Perturabo.

1D4chan says
"His first death occurred during the Drop Site Massacre, where the Iron Warriors launched a tactical nuclear missile at the Salamanders, killing Vulkan and the bulk of the XVIII Legion"

Lexicanum says "During the battle the majority of the Salamanders Legion was killed by nuclear missiles fired from the Iron Warriors" and cites "Vulkan lives" as source, so yes. Pretty great.

>Not even reading what I wrote
Who sounds stupid? Real-life decimations occurred in the Roman empire to swiftly punish large groups of soldiers (in this case, for not being the very best Legion), and while I can't quote any scientific sources for this plenty of authors toy with the idea of decimations having a very interesting effect on the survivors, namely making them feel bound to each other and to their officers, a la "It wasn't ME who did the thing, I was just following orders, blame them".

Personally I don't think it was a good idea, but it is an INTERESTING idea, and it helps give the Iron Warriors some of that ancient Mediterranean flavour they share with the Ultramarines and the World Eaters.

The reason you can't quote any scientific sources is because its bullshit, Decimation is not an "effective" techinique, its pointless and there's no evidence it would improve troop quality. Due to the random nature of choosing who dies its more likely to reduce quality as skilled veterans are just as likely to be killed.

You can argue thats its a very characterful thing for the Iron Warriors, I'd agree with that, but it's silly to argue it actually had a benefit.

custom master of signals, primus medicae, praevian, chaplain, shemet terminators and praetor

Fair enough, but I wasn't talking about their quality in terms of skill and experience, but rather morale and dedication.

Not sure where I got the idea in the first place, I think the Russians in World War Z do something like that?

Like you said it seems like a very IW thing to do, to calculate the benefit of more bodies vs completely changing the culture of the Legion.

>No-one likes them other than the Sons of Horus
That's not true, Curze liked Mortarion. See the allies chart.

I would point out that several Primarchs managed to change their legion's culture without killing one tenth of it, but as you say, its very IW.

They managed to change the culture of their Legion but, as far as I can rememberm there was always this tension between Terran culture and that of the new recruitment world. Perturabo mostly skipped introducing Olympian stuff, right? In as far as cultural references or how the Legion operates, I mean.

That's an interesting point actually, the Fourth seem more cohesive than many other Legions like the Raven Guard, Dark Angels or White Scars. There are other cohesive Legions of course, do we know what factors decide this? I want to say that it can't just be the personality of the Primarch, but considering their authority and how long time they had to work with their Legions, it might be.

Isn't the ally chart more crunch than fluff? I can't remember ever reading anything about them liking each other or working together.

Although... both Primarchs have a lot in common.

If I'm not mistaken, I'm under the impression the the allies chart is how well the Legions got along, not the Primarch. But even then though that should be taken lightly though.

Wasn't there a book where Abaddon and some Luna Wolves make mention of how they liked the Thousand Sons but yet the ally chart has them as distrusted?

Fine, because he's above average.
Also cynical because he's the fastest writer they have and can shit out a book in 3 months and usually has 2 or 3 on the go at any one time.

Brosis T'Kar was battle-buddies with the Mournival, it said nothing about the wider Legion relationship.
The TS sent their senior officers out on secondment to other legions to get experience of how they operated and probably to plant Hidden Ones fuck the police, individuals had differing experiences.

Abaddon and several others were bros with the guy, Brosis T'kar. He btfo-d Custodes in personal melees, also almost killed Valdor.

I really want to do Luna Wolves and Thousand Sons, but the ally chart makes that really difficult which is sad. A close friend of mine really reminds me of the Thousand Sons as a whole

Also, what book is that info from though? Was it something out of Inferno?

Certainly the Fists managed to avoid that tension and focus on cohesion, but thats part of their shtick, "division is weakness" after all.

As I recall the Iron Hands and Ultras also didn't have much of a terran divide, but I'm less certain of that.

Thousand Sons by McNeill, check the lexicanum article for T'Kar.

I don't remember if the Terran EC died out because of cancer or not, but you don't hear a lot about any tensions there. Salamanders, Alpha Legion, World Eaters and maybe Word Bearers are some other Legions I can't recall hearing any trouble from on that front, though I imagine most Terrans would have been purged in the decades leading up to the Heresy in the WB.

There wasn't nearly enough terran samamanders able to bitch about the change of culture