Do you prefer your bird-people in fantasy settings to have arm-wings or back-wings?

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It would depend on the specific design.
Though it sucks when bird people are conveniently the only instance of six limbed vertebrae.

They can if you are in a cartoon setting.

Arm - talons while wings take the place of arms.

They should have actual wings and manipulate things with their feet. They're just really good at flamingo-ing.

Mine have back wings

They're also more like feathered lizards than birds.

Arm wings, or regular wings with feet hands. Back wings are reserved for bugs and dragons.

Arms that can turn into wings because magic

This.

Sounds like an interesting setting.

Like the wind waker Rito?

> bird people
> birds in general

Are the wingless ones the victims of an ancient blood curse?

youtube.com/watch?v=xZ7SQHH4Xoo

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high fantasy where i can flff away them holdin things, arm wings. Low fantasy, back.

Arm wings. Back wings are for angels.

Back.

I am 100% the opposite of you. I find arm wings suit low fantasy largely because they're forced to find more creative ways to hold things (I usually give them talon which can function as shitty arms). Where as back winds are for hawkmen so pulpy scifi only please.

Eh, i prefer to have my races not impossible to play in 90% of scenarios. If i ever run a game where the focus is on conquest and warfare, i might go with a talon-feet-hands race as mercenaries who excell at swoopong attacks and archery. As it is, they don't work well in dugeons, so i go a little away from the likely to allow them to be playable.

What stat adjustments do you use(in systems with 3-18 stats, if a different series, specify please)? I go with -4 con, -2 str, +2 dex in 3.5 onwards, and -2 con, -2 str in 2e. You don't get flying for free.

>talons
>shitty arms
A zydactyl bird's foot is a triple jointed limb that ends in a manipulator that has four pointed fingers offset from each other in a perfect gripping pattern, each with three joints and a full range of finger-like motion. Birds can pick stuff up and manipulate it just fine. Also, their beaks can grip, and their tongues have the same utility as a thumb for things in that grip. The only awkward parts are that they're using their face as a limb, and the two manipulating limbs are not symmetrical in either function or placement.

Well, there's also the awkward part of not being able to move about on the ground at the same time, like you might have to when having a sword-fight in a place that's too cramped to fly.

Shit, did I give the impression that my low fantasy bird people lacked hand analogs on their wing arms? I feel like that's what you took away. I don't do that. They have hands (sometimes 2 hands that are functionally 1 hand), and talons. The downside of course being that you can't talon effectively (not that you'd want to) while on the ground, and you can't hand effectively while in the air.

I do this in savage worlds. No stat adjustment. -1 toughness due to lower bone density (a carry over from the core's back wingers), gain a d6 in either streetwise or persuasion, habit: socialization (basically if they aren't chit chatting it up with someone they'll get depressed, that's entirely a thematic song bird setting thing I thought would be neat, same justification for the social skills being trained), flight. That's considered balanced by the old core rules for race creation, but I don't believe I've ran them through the modern ones.

If I include the weird handedness thing (treat 2 arms as 1, each leg = 1 arm with a str+d6 natural weapon and the all thumbs hindrance),then I'll balance that out by including charisma (like I've said I have a theme, cha is also very good in savage worlds).

I tend not to run hardcore dungeon crawls and flight becomes exponentially more useful the more available 3d movement is, basically the judgement call depends on how available and in what tech range the ranged combat options are. The more prevalent the ranged options, the more likely I am to add an additional upside (especially because talons limit the bird's own ranged options).

You show me a bird that can draw a bow or operate a firearm while flying and I will concede that point to you.

so they're from starbound.

You show me a bird that has to use its feet while flying first.

Any bird of prey that attacks things with its talons? Like I want you to know that you're promoting a player character race. A proud and noble player character race. That sits on its bum, grabs a thing with its feet, then thumb tongues it to properly manipulate it.

That's silly as shit, and you've a problem with my take?

First, birds of prey don't fly with their feet. If they were an intelligent race, they'd to fly-by attacks using weapons, held in their feet.
If they need to use all three limbs, then they've already got a massive advantage over any other race that only has two limbs for the same task. Birds balance on one leg and manipulate with the other.

Arm wings

>Though it sucks when bird people are conveniently the only instance of six limbed vertebrae.
Huh?

Re-read what I wrote. Because I am literally describing a race that cannot use the hands on its arms while it flies (with its arms), and instead must use its less manipulative talons.

Aka
>If they were an intelligent race, they'd to fly-by attacks using weapons, held in their feet.
That. Literally that.

>less manipulative
Again, all the lack is a thumb, which they don't need because their fingers are offset and can act as impromptu thumbs. Birds are also good at judging distance and movement, which is why they can land in tangled branches without impaling themselves, which means that in flight, they've got two manipulators that are just as good as anyone else, and one that still ranks as okay, and on foot, they're down one good manipulator, but still have the slightly less good one built into their face.

You're claiming right now. Right now. That a talon. A much larger appendage relatively speaking. Tipped with fucking piercing weapons. As a fully functional human hand.

Yes. Because it has fine motor control over multiple digits that each have complex joints capable of moving in many different ways, that are also placed in such a way as to not need thumbs. Also, you can clip talons if it's really necessary. They've only got nerves down at the bottom.

forgetting to finish my sentence aside. I also forgot to throw in "And are fucking renown for the crushing force"

Only on specific birds of prey. There are many kinds of bird, and birds of prey are some of the least mentally capable. An owl is basically just a meat-seeking missile, while a raven or large parrot can solve complex and abstract puzzles.

And these again much larger proportionally talons are just totally going to fit around everything that is made for a human hand, entirely without problem.

If anything your entire point can be made moot because all thumbs is an hindrance synonymous with elves and native americans due to cultural views on technology. Two creatures I am positive possess human like hands (feel free to correct me on that).

I didn't want to go there, but neener neener neener!

Watch some videos of large parrots holding onto things. Real birds, with real talons, hold things just fine, because they have very small palm-equivalents, and very dextrous toes. Fantasy bird-people, who probably aren't even anatomically accurate to birds, can probably do better.

Oh I believe you that birds can grip things. I do not believe you that an intelligent bird could fire a bow with its legs while airborne (hence the problem I have with what you're saying).

>Fantasy bird-people, who probably aren't even anatomically accurate to birds, can probably do better.
Or they could do worse for a mechanical trade off.

The real problem is just that people that exclusively use their feet and mouths for manipulating tools, weapons, and other objects are likely to look extremely silly when described to the human players.

Why did you post such a slutty bird, OP?

Why does a fantasy bird need to be able to use a bow?

That's what I'm asking you.
Fantasy bird's talons have all thumbs, I have explained to you what that means already. Why are you still being contrarian?

Ah I missed a word. And most of the preceding conversation to be honest, I'm just jumping into this thread and responding in error.
I'm of the opinion that you should just use ordinary bird forms and be creative in thinking what sort of tools a sapient bird would use.
that or go full fantasy and just use BotW birds.

That guy isn't me. Birds can reach any part of their body except for the end of their tail (If it's a long tail) with their feet. Scratching the top of their head in the same manner as a dog is normal behavior. I believe that they should be able to use a bow in the air if they've got the intelligence. They'd just have to use a short bow and fire it sideways (Not a big deal, considering their spatial awareness).

I'm partial to the Iron Claw approach to birds: wing-arms, but with prehensile feet. Their wings can do really basic manipulation, but fine motor skills require their feet.

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Leave now and take your shit taste with you

No harm done, I'm equally in the wrong for assuming.
Now you on the other hand. Tell you what. I'll track down my fantasy setting documents and continue to distinguish my humans by making them the best at tool use, and my non-humans by making them more heavily reliant on their special abilities.

Congrats you've won a pointless internet argument about how I imagined a make believe creature wrong. Now I'm all out of medals, but I tell you what. I'll give you the equally rewarding prize of one less person willing to interact with you.

Well aren't you just precious. Have fun ruining your setting to prove a point that no one else will ever see. And don't reply to this or I win.

These guys have back wings and still use talons to carry weapons, just to overcomplicate things.

No wings.

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mistake guy here; do you have any sort of specialist tools for your nonhuman races? In the little bit of setting writing I've done I've written one pure bird race that only ended up with complex tools because of trade with another more humanoid race.
Does that sort of tools-through-osmosis idea seem more palpable to you?

So, I'm neither of the guys you were talking with before, but until this point I followed your discussion with some interest, if less understanding. Now that it's over, what exactly were you trying to claim? "Bird-folk mustn't be able to use tools as well as humans do, not because of facts related to their anatomy, but because it is wrong to create fantasy races like this"? That seems solid enough, but for this entire argument you've been using evidence like:
>I do not believe you that an intelligent bird could fire a bow with its legs while airborne (hence the problem I have with what you're saying).
and
>And these again much larger proportionally talons are just totally going to fit around everything that is made for a human hand, entirely without problem.
and
>You're claiming right now. Right now. That a talon. A much larger appendage relatively speaking. Tipped with fucking piercing weapons. As a fully functional human hand. [And are fucking renown for the crushing force].
Which are all perfectly comprehensible arguments that support the thesis "Bird-folk would not be able to use tools as well as humans do because of facts related to their anatomy." Unfortunately, I'm a bit confused, because none of these things have anything to do with claims related to "how to imagine a make-believe creature." More for my benefit than his, would you mind explaining in clear fucking English what your point was and why you're so upset about it?

>Do you prefer your bird-people in fantasy settings to have arm-wings or back-wings?

Arm-Wings if I HAVE to have them, otherwise I actually prefer no-wings.

I really like how weird, reptilian, and dangerous bird people look when they've got exposed, bald, clawed-hands.

I prefer them like I prefer my chicken

I'm guessing the chicken thought that the cat was threatened by the mouse?

Fuck no it wanted the food.

Apparently chickens are omnivores. It probably thought that it deserved a delicious mouse more than the cat.

Most omnivores will eat mice. Hell, even horses will.

>chickens are omnivores
Neat, didn't expect that. All my experiences with chickens come from friendly ones that occasionally attack the more dickish ones for being assholes.

Why not have both? I haven't seen a bird-person with both before.

The cat probably just wanted to kill the mouse and wouldn't even eat it. If Bird had waited it could have had its meal after letting Cat have some fun.

I'd say they could have arm wings, but not be able to fly with them. Maybe glide or float at best.

Look at the Hoatzin, a weird ass bird that still has claws when it's a chick.
birdwatchersgeneralstore.com/Hoatzin.jpg

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Are cats assholes? why would he do such a thing?

>Cute
>Emu
I'LL FOIGHT U CUNT.

Domestic Cats are unique in that they hunt for fun rather than food. Since we feed them anyway.

Name a vertebrae that has more than four limbs. Tails don't count.

that's some spooky shit, he is like a ninja

All cats hunt for fun.

Just most get their fun done whilst hunting for food.

Ones capable of flight: Back wings.
Ones only capable of gliding at best: feathered arms or "wings" with fingers.

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>Not giving your birbpeople archaeopteryx-like wing arms
smhtbhfamalam

aww

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Leg wings
or butt wings

Butt wings are my least favorite Japanese design meme. That shitty succubus from Darkstalkers has them. And head wings. What is it with nips and head wings???

Mice will eat chicken eggs, so Chickens have learned to kill mice.

My chickens never ate them though, just left them for me.

Chickens are notorious for killing and eating other (sickly or injured) chickens though.

YO WARMBLOOD GET OFFA MUH LAWN REEEEEEE!!!

Very kashikoi AND fashionable.

Arm wings, with prehensile feet capable of fine manipulation. Makes more sense anyway anatomically, wings usually need large chest muscles to work.

What is the specie of this bird ?
it looks so cool q.q

back wings

knee wings

>random hamster butt
хaх

No wings. They're bird people because I replace their arms with beaks.

what birb is this?

Where's the option for feathered regular arms you fag

Domestic cats are basically trying to be normal cats in an abnormal situation. They would normally live in female family groups that hunt collectively, so killing and carrying home anything you can get is a good idea.

They are generally held as singles and not in family groups and fed, but they still hunt because that's how their species would normally survive.