MTG LEGACY GENERAL

Should Probably just play ashen rider instead of stingscourger.

How important is rishadan port to DnT?
how does DnT matchup against storm, miracles, and sneak&show?

Port is important to the mana denial plan but you could probably start playing the deck without it, you'd just lose a bit more.
Storm is slightly unfavorable, sneak and show historically has been favorable but more lists are playing more omni's so it's worse now but still maybe even. Miracles I'm not sure about but I think it's even or slightly unfavorable.

>DnT matchup against storm
It depends on which storm deck, D&T has a little bit easier time against ANT due to its slower clock, but the matchup is still pretty bad. TES is a nightmare because of it's faster clock, MD ETW, and wishboard to deal with hatebears game 1; it's like a 20/80 matchup for D&T.

fuck dredge now that's a dumb fucking deck. no skill required, 100% luck. only deck worse is manaless dredge.

rishadan port can be a bit of a do-nothing right now because of all the DRS lists and such. i've taken to playing ghost quarter in monowhite alongside wasteland. it's pretty good as a matter of fact, you can really hose some of the greedier lists that forego basic lands. you can also play leonin arbiter to really start fucking butts, but i think that's better in the mirror as a 'gotcha!' and a decent hoser for storm as well because it makes tutoring a nightmare. i personally still play WR moon tax because blood moon effects are still real good.

I tried to dip my hands into stupid meme decks. Any suggestions? Critique? I'm still trying to fix it up, but I'm not sure what to change

mtggoldfish.com/deck/855788

I realize I forgot to sig my last post!

I've definitely considered The Rider, but I like that Stingscourger is castable most of the time. Doesn't stop Omniscience, but it handles all the other aggravating stuff Show and Tell has to offer. I've already got six Pillar effects for fighting Storm. Omniscience (the card) and High Tide (the deck) seem to be the deck's major weaknesses, and the only good answer I can think of is Pyroblast, mediocre though it appears to be.

It's essential. D&T is already bad against a lot of things, but losing your recursive mana-denial takes away the thing that makes it viable against combo and aggro.

It's The KnucklePuck, for sure, but seriously, graveyard hate's been free since 1994. Whenever I see people get salty over losing to Dredge, I can't really dredge up any sympathy: every deck has bad matchups, and there are so many sideboard options that just blank it immediately that you're either getting unlucky or you're choosing not to answer it. I've lost to (manaless!) Dredge and watched LED Dredge totally flub at every turn, and I've gotten moderately salty, but I've also played LED Dredge and won matchups I had no business winning because the opponent wasn't interested in entertaining the idea that it's a real deck.

If you don't think it requires skill, try playing it against Miracles, Lands, or anything liable to drop double-Deathrite. You'd be surprised. Some of my most interesting matches have been on Dredge against "decks to beat," and the deck itself didn't win those matches. The flipside of playing a deck that plays itself is that you don't control your own topdecks at all. Aggravating though it may be to have a perfect opener only to see your opponent dredge 36 cards on the first turn, there's no guarantee all the Narcos and Ickies aren't in the bottom 11 cards of the deck.

If you want a luck-based deck, see POOPS, ALL SPELLS!, the best deck in Magic.

I think 3 brainstorm is almost certainly wrong for one thing, and mox diamond with only 15 lands is a bit questionable. Otherwise it looks about as good as this archetype can possibly be which is still bad. I see you have the SnT transform board which is spicy. Ive been considering whether perhaps the primary shoaling fatty in the main should just be progenitus and if the show and tells can just be main. Lich n show if you will. I had a deck list ages ago but it needed serious refinement.

We'll, I got bored and looked through this flowchart of "what should I play" for Legacy.

I found an older deck primer and saw an MTGO version from 2012(?) & I mixed it in with more modern stuff hoping I could make it decent enough against common decks

I played the deck a bit before the SDT ban, we actually brewed on it as a group in this general when it was more active. My best results were going 2-3 in an mtgo league and going 2-2 in a GP side event and getting Rich Shay to say "oh, that deck?" I think the deck is one card away from being tier 3ish, but that card doesn't exist yet. The problem is that it's a three card combo and the combo package takes up a ton of deck space.

Bump

Do you still have the decklist anywhere? I could probably use it as a reference as well

The original primer i found it in was from 2010 & had 1 SnT mainboard, but I took it out. Maybe placing one wouldn't hurt. I tried using Lim Dul's vault also to tutor for my cards, but I don't have my card draws with me except probe and brainstorm. This deck is still iffy with me, like it's not perfect

I'm thinking of building veteran aluren with the intention of building into the BUG version. Thoughts? Is it decent in the current meta?

I wish that there was a format that had a meta that permitted old standard standouts like deep anal, FTK, Dog 'n' Tog, astral slide and shit.

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nourishing-lich-2k16/

Might hit up a legacy tourney next week, gonna run burn but not sure about the meta so trying to have a catch all sideboard. At the moment I have:

4x Faerie Macarbe
2x Pyroblast
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Exquisite Firecraft
1x Vexing Shusher (maybe?)
1x Pithing Needle (maybe?)
1x ?

Feel like I might need an Ashen Rider.

bump

So I tinkered the deck a bit more & playtested. It's a bit more consistent than last one

mtggoldfish.com/deck/866280#paper

How much consistency does 2 extra cabal rit really add?

I guess a little bit more. It helped me reach nef lich a bit more often. Maybe I'll put it back to 2 or 3 for more digging or something.

When I played it the meta was much different because miracles was the top deck but the problem I had was never the mana but finding the combo peices.

...

Make a custom card general of you want to shitpost like that senpai.

Seems pretty good, but I would go to a full quad of Smithereens. I'd probably just run more copies of Firecraft over Shusher, and you'll probably want a couple Sulfuric Vortices to stop stuff like Griselbrand and Swords to Plowshares.

Not sure how I feel about anti-S&T permanents. I'm thinking of trying Stingscourger, but I can't seem to find any of mine anywhere. I guess Ashen Rider stops stuff like Omniscience, but I don't like not being able to cast it at all. Maybe an extra Pyroblast would do the job, but I don't know yet. Haven't played the deck for all that long.

imo Port's fine because you really should be running 3-4x Revoker and a set of mom anyway. Often times Czech Pile players will keep greedy hands because they're dependent on DRS and you can shut them down for at least a couple of turns if you Revoker->Port.

Just misplayed myself out of an mtgo league 5-0. R5 G3 after a 4-0 start, Forgot to keep back 1 goblin token to block and died to exact damage on the crackback. Ive never been so tilted in my life.

I play burn in modern and while it's decent there, I see a lot of people trash it in legacy. How bad is it really?and more importantly, how fun is it?

Commiserations; I've definitely done that before.

Did you record the league?

It's got a lot more game than I'd have thought originally. Sure, you bite it hard against most combo decks, but you get better value on all your plays than other value decks do, so your only possible predator there is D&T (because it's built to reduce the value its opponents get), and hard control gets pretty much totally forked because every spell warrants getting countered, but they often won't be able to keep up in topdeck mode even if they're running stuff like Hymn to Tourach.

I've been really enjoying it, though I'm a combo-player at heart. Had some interesting plays revolving around Price of Progress; last week I played it on my opponent's upkeep when he had two Wastelands, two duals, and two basics. He had to hard-cast Force in order to not sacrifice four lands, and that left him with an untapped Swamp and no plays. Red Time Walk is pretty rad.

Funniest match I've played was against Stax; he landed Sundial and Stack on 2 at around 11 life, so I just waited until I topdecked a one-drop and a land, played them, sacrificed everything, and repeated until the game was over.

I did record it. It'll be up on YouTube later tonight, I'll post a link

youtube.com/watch?v=dO9TVldgX5o&feature=youtu.be

Video of my league, have a watch, cry every tiem

Liking the vid!

In match 2, G1, I would've taken the Manamorphose instead of the Seething Song. They missed the lethal line of "exile Guide, play Seething Song, cast Charbs and fire." Most of the Charbelcher deck is mana, so taking off of the means to find it seemed better to me than taking them off the big-mana card.

I also find that with Belcher, there's a choke on mana to go from 1 to 3+. Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way, but oftentimes I find that I need a Desperate Ritual or Pyretic Ritual but I can't quite get there with the tools I have.

Anyway, still watching and enjoying, but I'll post again if I notice something else!

Just got to the point where you're taking a break. Good stuff so far!

In the game against Charbs when you took the Seething Song, I probably would've gone for the Manamorphose, only because they would've needed to net two mana off their topdeck to get to the Charbelcher. Might need to watch again in case I'm being an idiot, and it worked out anyway, so no biggie.

I've seen lists run Edge of Autumn. Any particular reason you've eschewed it? Just wondered because three Baubles feels like a lot to someone who doesn't play your deck.

The Emrakul gank was supreme.

Thanks for watching. I'm not very experienced with the belcher matchup. Ive only played the deck a bit and played against it less.
Regarding Edge of Autumn and Bauble, I don't think Edge does enough. You dont really need another free cantrip, it doesn't add to storm count. It can't be pyroblasted but neither can Bauble. Bauble has better utility outside the combo. Can defend against DRS, Surgical. Let's you use your cantrips more aggressively because you don't need to hold one for the combo turn. Bauble also saves you mana on the combo turn when played earlier, which is great for playing through soft counters. A Bauble on board lets you make land drops and play out LEDs and potentially peel a doomsday or wish and win off your topdeck against heavy discard. Bauble can be a bad topdeck and feel like timewalking yourself when you cast it early and it's a do nothing but my winrate jumped like 10 percent since i started playing it so numbers don't lie I guess. 2 baubles might be correct, but fewer than 2 is probably not.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I guess the tradeoff is that Edge's cycling can't be countered (except by Stifle and bad cards). I'm genuinely developing an interest in Doomsday, though I think I'm in a meta where it's probably a tad slow and where the control players know my shenanigans too well. Guess that's why playing Burn has paid off lately. Have you seen any Doomsday lists that put the petal to the metal? I feel like it's a really cool deck, but that the primary strike against it is its speed. Not trying to denigrate the deck at all; I'm just interested in what people have been doing with it in this topless era and whether anything's been having unexpectedly favorable results. I've actually been considering running it as a singleton in place of Ad Nauseam in AnT, though I don't think it really works. Will keep you updated in one way or another if it pays off!

Still considering a BUG Nic Fit list, but I'm sorely lacking in extra green duals. Got two Undergrounds, but only singletons of Bayou and Trop. Anyone tried something that (theoretically) qualifies as a budget version?

So after revamping my last idea weeks ago on a deck focused around Chains of Mephistopheles I came up with this:

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mousse-parfait/

The last deck was BR with punishing fire + burnwillows to get through the Anvil/Chains lock. This time around I found that the old Parfait engine actually works even better, while giving me a way to work around land destruction a bit. Not looking to win any tournaments but would like to have at least acceptable matchups with some of the meta. Any thoughts or advice?

Actually I'm not so sure that it's slower anymore. For reference, Cook's article comparing ANT and TES: theepicstorm.com/storm-data-comparison/
For several weeks now myself and several other Doomsday players have been recording our matches with a similar spreadsheet to his. After over 200 matches, our average combo turn is 2.67, lower than ANT's, according to Cook. I found this to be suprising. Some caveats about our Doomsday Data: there's less of it than Cook had for his decks, and it's been provided by multiple people. Personally I can only vouch for the validity of around 125 of those data. The data is not all from mtgo leagues, it combines leagues, paper tournaments, 2 mans, mtgo tournament practice room games, etc. We've been aiming for quantity, at least to start. Also our match win rate is lower than either ANT or TES at 57%. I think this is a function of having multiple players of unknown skill level contributing, personally my winrate is about 60% and since I switched back to a Bauble list almost 80% although I only have about 25 matches, and not all in leagues, so questionable sample. Also, combo turn is defined as the turn you cast your win condition, which means you don't always actually win on the combo turn. I believe cook defines it this way as well (relevant for etw), but Doomsday has more games where you "combo out" but dont win until 1 or even 2 (or occasionally 5) turns later. Also of note, his sheet only has "1" through "4+" as combo turn options, we have through "5+".
I think that's it for caveats, but it's a lot to interpret. Make of it what you will, but the main takeaway is that the new listals with fewer lands, more petals, amd no top really are as fast as ANT.

ddft vods never disappoint

thx senpai

Balance isn't Legacy legal man. Sorry.

>the smug opponent cast DEATHRITE SHAMAN
>Ritual-ritual- Sire of insanity
literally best deck of the format

No Thank you senpai

Somehow I feel like people have misconception of dredge being not skillfull is that the deck plays pretty much itself. They never see the decision making prior to play, where most of the time dredge player has to judge between going all in or not, much like a storm would. Other than that, I have had LED dredge fizzle so many times that it's not even funny, even on the infamous 36 dredge.

Shit, I never even thought to check that. A shame since it's such a workhorse in that deck. Any other recommendations to change it out with? Maybe tanglewire or ensnaring bridge?

thank god nobody in my meta plays that shit.

>go or no go
>1 decision
>so many skill testing decisions guys!

I'm the guy brewing a decent Nef Lich deck. My friend gave me the idea using Ad Naus if I have regular Lich on the field, it's actually pretty good. Nef Lich is nice, but a pretty huge gamble considering I have a 15 CMC card shoved in there. Now I'm considering of running 2 regular Lich

you could pretty much say the same for the storm, so I don't see what's the issue. I assume storm as well is no brainer deck that doesn't require skill.

Should probably just play 4 normal Lich then

The ending twist though. Good movie 7/10.

Yeah the last turns of that last game were painful to watch. Clearly a misplay but still feels bad to be that close and miss like that.

Go or no go?
Do I keep this hand with a perfect T1 and also a Narcomoeba, meaning I won't get optimal results from my dredges? Should I play Breakthrough now, or should I wait a turn to develop my mana and maybe get another enabler? Break LED and use it on Coliseum now, or save it to use on Faithless Looting? Bring back an Ichorid, two Ichorids, three Ichorids, or four? Wait, how many Terminuses (Termini) is my opponent likely to have in his hand? Which card to I return to the top when my Thug dies? Do I target myself or my opponent when I cast Cabal Therapy? What do I name when I cast it targeting the opponent? Is it worth attacking and probably losing my Bridges, or should I hold back and see what happens? Should I Dread Return Ichorid for extra tokens or should I save it for a big troll later in the game? Will I actually get a big troll, or will Ichorids have eaten all the fuel for its +1/+1 counters? Am I likely to find my Dread Return target, or should I just use the card to get value from my Bridges? What are the odds the opponent's Monastery Mentor will overwhelm me if I don't blast off this turn?

Yeah, totally brainless deck with no decisions. Only scrubs would play that deck when they could play a Delver and make a ton of decisions about whether to attack with it, whether they should ever tap out (My Spider-Sense is telling me the answer is "never"), and whether they should Brainstorm on upkeep.

I'm not a fan of the "x deck is brainless" meme. Very few decks truly have no decisions to make. Even oops has sequencing decisions to make to bait potential interaction. Pretty much only Leylines is a truly brainless deck.

>Not playing br reanimator
Literally the best t1 deck of the format, fast, relaible and cheap. And the precious salt of the opponents when you t1 them or t2 with a deathrite shaman that they can't activate.

While you technically listed a lot of decisions the pilot of dredge has to make, after a little experience with the deck the correct answers to them become pretty clear depending on the situation. While it seems daunting at first, the deck really does “play itself” in terms of correct lines becoming increasingly more obvious as you play. In addition, not many of the games actually come down to these intense decision games, the majority of game 1 wins are overwhelmingly lopsided and the majority of post board game losses are lopsided in the other direction (since your opponent now actually has ways to interact). I don’t think playing dredge is completely devoid of intelligent thought, but I do think it is one of the easier combo decks in the format, probably slightly more challenging than the turn 1 meme decks but that’s about it.

Unfortunately it’s becoming harder and harder to turn 1 because everyone is packing 3+ surgicals in the board nowadays (sometimes even leylines)

i shouldn't have to dedicate half my sideboard to simply not-die to one specific deck on turn 1, yet here we are.

first thread i saw in catalog, so here is question:

If i have two enchantments that have 'when a creature comes into play ' effect, which one triggers first- or if i control both enchantments, do i pick which one triggers first ?

If they're your enchantments that trigger off ETB stuff then you choose the order.

If your opponent has something that triggers as well then it's stacked in NAPAP(Non-active player, active player) order. So the non-active player would stack their triggers first then the active player would stack their triggers on top of the order and then triggers are resolved Last In, First Out so the last trigger that was stacked would be the first one to resolve and the first trigger that was stacked would be the last one to resolve.

thanks!

Niqqa got this wrong, it's APNAP order

proof to bump
blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2011/09/apnap-and-you/

Play unmask
>Playing a fair deck about not letting the other player to play magic
>He doesn't get to play magic
>Complains
The joke tells itself

Well if you want to turn 1 with unmask now you are asking for an opener with land, dark rit, entomb, reanimation spell, unmask, black card, which is pretty specific (and obviously the nut draw). Not that it isn’t possible, but it’s way more likely that your turn 1 combo isn’t going to be protected.

false equivalence, breh. you can still beat d&t's best turn 1 play without much hassle game 1, 2 or 3.

If you want to turn one nut combo then the best way to go is belcher. RB nut reanimator dies to force of will AND grave hate.

>Belcher
>A Deck that loses to itself
>Better than br reanimator

>RB nut reanimator dies to force of will
Didn't realize you couldn't draw into another of the 12 reanimation spells in the deck. Or that you can't protect the combo with Chancellor or one of the many discard spells in the deck.

BR reanimator has too much redundancy and maindeck discard to lose to force. If you really want to play a t1 meme jam deck, play SI.

Dark rit, cb pitching a target, reanimate works too, although it's still unlikely

Yeah you're right my bad, I said it one way for how things are shortcutted in my games with people I know but said it another way improperly which should have been elaborated more for actual rules guidelines.

IN MY DEFENCE I WAS FULL OF RUM AND HAM.

DEFENSE ACCEPTED. VALID REASON. MERRY CHRISTMAS/JEW WEEK ETC.

>MERRY CHRISTMAS/JEW WEEK ETC.
>celebrating jew holidays
vargSTOP.jpg

Yeah, I agree. I just think the whole "Dredge doesn't require decision making" argument is wrong and a bit tawdry. Relatively easy to play, but there's a world of difference between good Dredgers and bad ones.

My major criticism of the deck is that it lacks consistency. The hate for it results in a lot of lopsided losses, but I find the bigger problem to be that you'll lose a lot of games just because you're missing the essential piece to make the deck work and you don't have any way to find it except to hope you can keep dredging fast enough to get there. The deck also stacks itself as you play it, so you have to shuffle it about three times as much as you do other stuff to ensure randomization.

BR may be better, but I still think I'd prefer Poops All Spells. Sixty percent of the time, it works . . . every time.

Much better than Hoogland's Excellent Adventure, Part I, II, or LVI. DDFT's misplays are understandable.

Merry Christmas, everybody! Time to continue the Die Hard marathon.

Just 4-1'd another league. Lost r1 to BUGW Aluren Nic Fit, then beat DnT, TES, TES, and TES.

>Aluren Nic Fit
A nic fit aluren hybrid or veteran Aluren?

It had seige rhinos my dude.

>It had seige rhinos my dude.
The fuck was that nigga doin

I don't know. G1 it just looked like junk nic fit. I probed and saw vet, witness and rhino and I blew them out. Game 2 they suddenly had blue and I ran into a FoW. Game 3 they hit me with therapies and then combo'd me out with aluren. I had no idea what was going on.

You want some TES with that?

Well done! Did you record any of it?

I'm running 2 vortex in the main board. I'll have to just look around and see what I can come up with

No recording this time. I was suprised when I played the 2nd TES deck but I couldn't believe it when I played the third. Dude was chill though. Got hyped when he probed me and saw Doomsday. I guess he'd been jamming it a bit at his fnm.

No, they can un response surgical extract your reanimation target

>celebrating any holidays
>not celebrating DRS's continued dominance
PRAISE BE

If they banned DRS, how would your deck change?

It wouldnt. High tide don t care.

my deck remains the same. tarmogoyf price spikes back to 200 as players scramble to put together rug delver.

Why would it?

Deathrite's a great accelerator and color-fixer, but it doesn't do much as hate unless you see two or more.

If anything, it'd just make Storm and Reanimator stronger.

Bump in the night

What's the spiciest brew you guys have seen lately?

Seasonal bonus points if it's Gruul.

My UR delver would swap the mainboard price of progress for wastelands