"Hit It Like The Fist Of, Well, Y'Know" Edition
Discuss the lore of the Warcraft franchise and its application in and around traditional games.
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The Light's utter indifference to morality, ethics, intent or any such thing is a piece of lore I actually really like. It puts the focus on the resolve necessary for one to channel the Light and not on the actions done with it.
That's why the Scarlet Crusade - zealous, misguided, demon-manipulated bigots they are - are able to wield the Light. They legitimately believe in their heart of hearts that they are doing the right thing and serving the Light's will, so the Light responds to them. You can be an "evil paladin" or "evil priest" as long as you truly believe you are in the Light's grace and favor.
To that end, though, when does the Light stop responding? Is there ultimately a cutoff point where the Light realizes you're doing some bad shit and cuts you off, or do you have to specifically falter in your belief? Can you be cut off from the Light, forcibly or otherwise?
I know there is a lot of shit in it, but I don't really get the Cata hate.
Maybe it's still a matter of intent, thinking on it. The Scarlet Crusade never consciously thought they were doing bad, even when they were being racist and were manipulated by Balnazzar. Not once did they ever think they were in the wrong or actively performing evil acts. But if they did, if someone knew they were being a rancid prick, then would that necessarily mean they know their cause isn't just and that the Light should fail them?
Just hit Friday man, we don't need to discuss WoW this early.
There's several factors that leads to the Cataclysm hate.
>Redoing the old world to meet modern standards is one thing, but they replaced all the compelling world-building with memes
>Dragon Soul, the final raid, was one of the worst raids in a long time
>Garrosh's characterization is inconsistent, at best
>Sylvanas begins her path down the dark side, if it wasn't obvious already
>Varian's getting jerked off a little harder than usual
I don't think Paladins have ever lost their ability to wield the Light. They can have it enhanced, reason why Miraad glows when they have a Naruu on the planet, or why Turalyon loses his glow when Xe'ra dies. The Light isn't much of a religion anymore, but just an aspect of magic.
Much like how the Void/Shadow Priests these days don't have to boy down to the Old Gods or the Void Lords to use said powers, they're not bound by some evil religion that will take away their powers if they don't do evil.
I think with the Light you basically need to waver not ever for a second in your conviction. If you EVER need to make excuses for your actions, even mentally and just to yourself, then the Light fails you because your conviction wavered.
Basically, if you were the kind it politico or priest guy who went
>”Well I know the law/morals SAY it’s bad, but when you look at it this way-“
then the Light drops you like a rock because the only way you can justify yourself even TO yourself is excuse and hypocricy, not true belief.
The Scarlet Crusade never made excuses for how they acted, they 100% believed with unfailing zeal that they were in the right and that people who disagreed with them were wrong, so they could use The Light.
This means that Light users probably usually come in only two flavors; saintly guys who genuinely believe in the decency of humanity and all things and the followers of The Lights vaguely humanist belief creed and truly practice what they preach and thus have zero reason to doubt themselves, or sodusllg maladjustedbzealots who are so utterly convinced of their correctness that the concept that they might be wrong never even occurs to them.
You sound like you're phoneposting.
So it's "practice what you preach and be a genuinely good person," or "never (un)consciously question yourself because you are clearly never in the wrong." I can dig it.
has anyone here tried the wow board game? I've seen it at a friends but never actually played it. It looks pretty fun
So did Tirion lose his conviction after slaying Arthas, or is the Light just not powerful enough to stand up against the Legion?
Tirion was captured and tortured by the Legion before he gave up the ghost.
He sounded alright when he was screaming about how the Light will protect him.
But as the meme goes, he spent his final blessing to break out of Arthas' ice prison.
Cata single-handedly turned the playerbase against once fan favorite Thrall.
Horde players hated that he abandoned the Horde, his armor, and his personality for some newly-introduced wife with the no real character, and put Garrosh in charge despite LITERALLY EVERYONE telling him it was a terrible idea.
Alliance players hated that they were forced to tag along on his adventures, even though he was still doing shit like letting the Goblins into the Horde.
In general, having him take out Deathwing, a character he had no real connection with beforehand, was a pretty shit idea.
Holy shit, I completely forgot about what they did to Thrall. Never has the community turned on a character so quickly and so violently, and it only took one expansion.
For what it's worth, End Times implies that there was an even worse timeline in store if Thrall never abdicated the Warchief throne and embraced his calling as the World Shaman.
I've never seen that before.
I am phoneposting my actual laptop died years ago and I live in America and am under 50 years old so I literally can not afford a new one if I want to pay for rent, utilities, groceries, internet service, and occasionally healthcare.
Truth be told, I’ve gotten really used to posting from my phone at this point since it’s literally the only computer access I’ve been able to have for so long.
>So it's "practice what you preach and be a genuinely good person," or "never (un)consciously question yourself because you are clearly never in the wrong." I can dig it.
Yeah, exactly.
It’s about absolute conviction, and the types of people with that conviction are either so devoted to an idea and live it so consistently that they never have cause to doubt or are just so fucking crazy that self-doubt is an foreign concept to them.
>rent, utilities, groceries, internet service, and occasionally healthcare.
Jesus Christ. How poor are you?
Poor enough that thirty years ago I would be making a relatively comfortable living but in modern day I’m basically just barely been living above hand to mouth for almost seven years.
Thems the breaks of modern economics here; go to where the jobs are only to discover that paying for living where the jobs are leaves you with nearly nothing.
>Is there ultimately a cutoff point where the Light realizes you're doing some bad shit and cuts you off
So long as your conviction remains high, the Light will never abandon you. The trouble seems to come from having enough willpower to channel that kind of certainty and faith so religion is where most get it from.
I don't think occasionally questioning yourself will lose you the Light's favor. But when those second-thoughts hide deep-rooted uncertainty and weakening of resolve, even(especially) from oneself, is when the Light becomes ever harder to call upon and would look to most as the Light itself passing judgement on your actions, your heart or both.
Anyone else hoping for lore on the Aqir-Troll war in Vol'dun, since they said it's a desert because of it? It's always fascinated me.
>In your greatest time of need, when you're unsure of your cause and need guidance
>That's when the Light potentially abandons you
???
Man Deathwing really was a rotting husk infested by Old God bugs by the end.
>I don't think Paladins have ever lost their ability to wield the Light.
Nobundo
That's the whole point of the Madness of Deathwing encounter. With the whole world marshalled against him, his body has completely broken down, and neither Neltharion nor Deathwing are left in that body, just mindless madness and a living vessel of Old God rot and corruption.
The Light never really “talks” to anyone since it’s an abstract thing and not a deity.
It’s philosophy is something more like altruistic humanism, the belief that goodness lies in everyone and defending that goodness and promoting peace and brotherhood is a worthy task, and by doing so you can foster The Light within yourself and use it’s power for good.
Coincidentally, I think this is kinda why most blood elves didn’t turn towards the Light to satisfy their magic addiction; to get enough of the Light to really replace the Sunwell’s massive Arcane power source you’d need to believe REALLY fucking hard, and it could not be easy believing in the altruism of the universe and working towards a better future for all when all that awful shit happened to them. Hell, everything they did seemed to make shit worse honestly.
Yes, but prophesies are bullshit, and from what we can see of him and the world as a whole, it's pretty obviously wrong
It was the Bronze dragonflight that showed him this right? The bronze dragonflight have been pretty drastically mistaken before
Hear me out: End Time is the best case scenario for the Bronze Dragonflight and the timeways in general. In order to get the Dragon Soul from the past, Nozdormu has to kill Murozond in order to do it. Without the Dragon Soul, there is a huge problem: the entire Twilight Dragonflight becomes living, breathing paradox.
At least until WoD came out and they started jacking off the timeline angle, making any work the Bronze Dragonflight might have done in the first place pointless.
It's fucking beautiful.
Note that those who, in their darkest hours and despite it all, somehow manage to reaffirm their conviction and re-solidify their world-view will have the Light coursing through them again, cementing said conviction and rooting whatever conclusions they came to ever more deeply into their psyche.
Fucking. Beautiful.
You're a tradesman aren't you?
Ever since the beginning, the bronze dragons swear up and down the street that "no, seriously guys, we are on the best timeline possible, and any deviation is going to make things worse."
Or maybe they find the Light from another angle, by being taught and embracing the "love your fellow man" teachings.
Yeah, but evidence suggests that they're wrong in that regard
Dragons in WoW have a history of being very wrong about that which is their direct domain
When were Ysera and Alexstraza wrong?
Alextrasza thought she could protect the world from orcs, ended up being used by orcs
Ysera thought the green dragonflight could handle the nightmare
Nothing quite like a timely and dramatic light show to convince someone of the righteousness of whatever conclusions they came to.
No, I’m in software engineering.
I make around $1100 or so a month, but with my rent around $750 and my utilities around $150-ish along with my phone bill and internet bill I’m working with very little spare change here.
I know a lot of asshats who are super excited about this new tax break thing we’re supposed to be getting, but honestly in my income bracket and the income brackets of everyone I know and the income brackets of everyone THEY know even if they now paid no taxes at all it would make up less then a quarter of their total lost income expenditure just make basic living expenses due to truly disgusting housing and rent inflation along with vicious internet and cable bills.
Well he lost is because of fel magic, like how Arthas lost his Light from Frostmourn's magic.
There hasn't been a paladin that one day killed some innocent guy and the Light shined a ray on him and told him he wasn't a paladin anymore.
Is that how she ended up in Grim Batol, she just charged the Horde by herself and got captured by the Dragonmaw?
No, she was lured there by orcs who captured other members of the red dragonflight as bait
Also they had help from deathwing
>Arthas lost his Light from Frostmourn's magic.
I think he was just seriously doubting himself and his actions, no matter what front he might've been putting up for others or what he was telling himself.
Arthas never lost his faith (initially), but he fell for the "I NEED MORE POWER (TO PROTECT MY PEOPLE)" trap. He baited himself into grabbing Frostmourne.
Indeed, recall how, in game, Arthas with frostmourne could still use the light. Initially
>As the blade renders flesh it must also scar the spirit
- Inscription on the pedestal holding frostmourne in warcraft 3.
I think Arthas soul got destroyed from him overusing the frostmourne and that's why he can't use the light anymore.
So uh....do you think she’s warm?
Like, physically I mean? Or is she just an ice cold corpse in a good state of preservation?
Lore says cold
Also, she's still the shittest out of all the forsaken's dark rangers, even though, or perhaps because, the others have recieved no characterization at all
world of waifucraft remains strong
>corpse
She's a ghost.
Banshee queen.
Deathly, deathly cold. She's a banshee possessing a well-preserved corpse.
, , Well, that’s a waste then.
She certainly isn’t competent enough or useful enough or interesting enough for anything else, so she’s pretty much worth nothing at all then.
She's competent
She's just also a megalomaniacal, cowardly shithead who totally disregards the wellbeing of those she's responsible for
"My father once told me the world was gonna roll me, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed" -Jaina Proudmoore
Does her competence count as competence when the other leaders of the Horde have routinely acted like literal retards or complete idiots?
Thrall was the last Warchief of competence back in the WCIII days, then there’s him bailing on it and giving to an unstable moron like Garrosh who wants to totally live it up like the good old days that he’s too young to even remember, the Vol’jin who’s whopping accomplishment was dying and handing leadership of it to the leader of one of the biggest diplomatic problems the Horde has with the Alliance who is known by everyone to be an unstable self-absorbed psycho.
Just because she’s slightly less stupid then her peers does not make her any less stupid overall.
>$1100 a month
nigger I answer phones for a living and make more than you
Like seriously I work ~36 hours a week answering phones and scheduling appointments and I make like $1500 a month, how are you this poor at 30 without trying?
Actually, a recent short story tells that she discovered a way to make undead functionally indistinguishable from living people, that's why Nathanos looks like a healthy person now.
whats the fucking point then
You sound like a pathetic faggot that's made a lot of shitty choices. Even when I was just a part-time grocery clerk, I was making $1000 just working 25 hours a week. You are the very definition of a poorfag.
And don't blame it on the times. Take some responsibility for your life.
The point of what?
So if the Light is just purely based on your conviction... does that mean that literally everyone has the potential to start slapping out Holy Shocks and Healing Lights if they have enough righteousness in their heart? Light-wielding hunters, Light-wielding rogues, Light-wielding mages?
Yes but Paladins^tm are human exclusive tho.
Probably so people could beat off to Thoughts of fucking Sylvanas.
I mean, it IS WarCraft. As a fan of the series since the first RTS game, we can all fully admit it’s kind of lowest common denominator entertainment.
Didn’t someone on here compare it to pro wrestling? I don’t know anything about that sorta stuff, but it certainly feels accurate.
No, it's yet another region without lore full of boring furries.
Lots of furry races in Warcraft
and the best one gets no love at all, probably because there's no female models for it it's grummles, grummels are the best
In theory I guess?
The thing is, most people who have that kind of conviction and faith are servants of The Light and assume it’s actually specifically that particular faith that gives them their powers I’m guessing since they don’t have the benefit of an out of universe perspective or someone explaining the “science” behind their Faith-based superpowers.
And since we have shamans getting their power from the spirits or elements or whatever and night elves getting power from Elune and priests of Shadow too, my guess is that most folks on Azeroth just see another example of super religious folks having superpowers and assume it’s just a religious thing rather then a separate thing entirely.
Besides which there must be an element of special training involved in channeling the Light, otherwise the Paladins would have needed to be specially created during the Second War in the first place because they’d already be there.
They’re only furries as soon as someone sexualizes them. Until then they are merely boring animal people instead.
Would female grummels be lolis or shortstacks?
hairy shortstacks
They can be both.
>Ooh, that's a big luckydo~!
why didn't varyan dismantle the horde?
Because they decided to go full meme with Sylvanas and get her to fall in love with a human from her past life. Don't worry though, I'm sure Golden and her fanfiction tier writing and god awful romance plots will fix everything
Admittedly, it did lead to a really good short story
Not about Sylvanas of course, about Lor'Themar, but still
>After Illidan imprisoned himself and threw the key in the figurative sea Maive decided to ________.
Destroy the Horde and then make the kaldorei leave the Alliance to live autistically in Kalimdor.
*gulp* brehs...
Female dwarves have heavy jaws, but god I love their accent
Slinging the Light requires conscious belief in the Light, first. That purview falls strictly to humans, dwarves and draenei (blood elves and tauren have different traditions, to say nothing of the myriad priest races). But in theory, if you're willing to multi-task like that, yes.
It makes me think of RL glaswegian women, which kills the boner rather brutally.
Because Varian was willing to write off the Horde civil war as blamed strictly on Garrosh himself, especially since the guy to take his place - Vol'jin - was on better terms with the Alliance.
That's not true. She only found a way to give the undead a body like hers that won't rot away. But it comes at a large price and she can't do it for everyone
The story was about her past life, and only suggested that she might have retained those feelings, same with Nathanos. I thought it was pretty well written actually and added to tragic sense of her character. Just wanted to be a humble farmers wife in the middle of the country side.
Maybe I'll regret this, but can you source it?
Is the Scarlet Crusade human-only?
It's an official blizzard story. Called through the glass mirror or something
Regarding WoW fluff; was there any explanation given for 'players can revive, but npcs cannot?' IIRC spirit healers are canon, but don't know why they refuse to revive the named heroes.
Neat. Nice to know my righteous and dogmatic survivalist having access to zealous shocks of holy fervor was as within the lines as I assumed it was when I played him.
Players are actually demon infiltrators sent by Burning legion to Azeroth, and thus they can't be killed outside twisting nether
There are old high elf and dwarven heroes of the Crusade (as in there are two high elves and one dwarf once on record as members of the group - all dead), but ultimately, yes, the Scarlet Crusade is a human-only faction.
There was one throw-away line from... I think Chromie once about the fact that the the Bronze Dragonflight has actually been using PC's as troubleshooters since the beginning of WoW and just constantly rejiggering the timelines to just throw our carcasses at problems over and over and over until we eventually get things right.
It's completely disposable dialogue, but it strongly implies that every player character is basically stuck in an unknowning Groundhog Day scenario where we fight against world-breaking horrors and mind-cracking monsters against all odds and die thousands and thousands of times, only managing to overcome our challenges by a brute force application of probability. So every time you wiped to Onyxia, that legitimately happened until the stars aligned and no-one got knocked into whelps, people knew to avoid the danger zones, etc.
Spirit Healers are val'kyr who fled from Odyn and now hide in the Shadowlands reviving the PCs. The argument almost always given is "it's not yet your time."
In game mechanics aren't all cannon. For example reviving, hearthstones, rogue stealth etc
schlick
How is rogue stealth, the class's central and signature mechanic, a non-canon ability?
I thought it was really cool how vrykul and humans are genetically connected. It's like those two factions are Scandinavia before and after the introduction of christianity. Humans evolved (or devolved depending on how you look at it) from the vrykul but the gods they once worshipped still exist. Is there a name for the human god? Or do they just worship "the light"
Hearthstones exist, and reviving is possible, just a hell of a lot harder than it is in-game
The biggest gap is the size of the game world. Especially with the broken isles included. The world is much, much bigger than the area you can explore in-game, and is less exaggerated in the broken isles, leading to the oddity of the broken isles on the game map shoving the maelstrom out of position and appearing to be as big as Northrend
Explain them how a society of taurens, an elven city, valhalla and inferno + valsharah are all in the broken isles. They'll end making the world in game cannon and thats pretty sad.
Cause normal people can't literally go invisible. I'm talking out my ass on this but there are many things in game you have to look at and figure this is purely a game mechanic.
Hearthstones are legit real? Named characters have used them outside the game? I know mage portals are real because of the warc raft movie
Edge of Tomorrow style? Neat.
The vrykul assume humans are a devolution, and they complained when their babies started coming out tiny, pink and wimpy.
The most prominent religion of the human nations is the Church of the Holy Light.
Yes, hearthstones and player revival are real. Practically everything in-game has an in-universe justification by now.