What does Veeky Forums think of the fact that the Ogre Mage, originally called the Japanese Ogre in 1e, was officially renamed the Oni in 4e and 5e?
Also, desperately looking for the artwork of the Elemental Magi - Ken-kuni, Ken-li, Ken-sun - from 3e's Monster Manual V and the Oni from 4e's Monster Manual 2 and Secrets of the Open Grave. Can anyone hook a guy up?
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And hey, why not talk about what you can do with Oni in D&D as opposed to Ogres. Aren't there actually Japanese myths featuring redeemed Oni?
And if there are non-evil oni in Japanese mythology, is there any reason they couldn't be presented as a race in an Oriental Adventures campaign? I mean, the Ogre Mage had PC stats in 2e's "Complete Book of Humanoids" and 3e's "Monster Manual 1"...
Oh, forgot to mention, if anyone can track down the Cereborg and Umbramage "mugshot" art from the Ecology of the Ogremage in Dragon #349, it'd be really appreciated.
>What does Veeky Forums think of the fact that the Ogre Mage, originally called the Japanese Ogre in 1e, was officially renamed the Oni in 4e and 5e?
I think both are handled extremely poorly by D&D.
Ogre Magi and Oni both have enough of their own original material, fluff, and irl folklore to make perfectly acceptable additions into a kitchen-sink-fantasy game without stepping on one another's toes. I've always thought that Dnd basically completely wasted Ogre Mages and Oni in every edition they've put them in and I can't understand why they're so adamant about keeping them shit- not that I use them as they have them, it's just a shame.
>originally called [...] in 1e
OK. Nobody calls it 1e. 2e is 2e, AD&D is AD&D.
More importantly, they were in OD&D first. Supplement I.
I like the idea, but I think "ogre" can be a broader category still, including things like merrows, rakshasas, and maybe Persian divs.
That's unusually good art for OD&D.
>What does Veeky Forums think of the fact that the Ogre Mage, originally called the Japanese Ogre in 1e, was officially renamed the Oni in 4e and 5e?
Not a fan. The Ogre Mage had developed into their own thing, distinct and separate from Japanese Oni, starting from their very first iteration since Gygax was just making stuff up and only doing a modicum of research. You can't really blame him too much, because proper research into foreign cultures was a lot harder back then, but to try and combine the divergent strains this late in the game just doesn't sit right, especially with the cloaked-blue-dude look that's nothing like an actual oni.
Let ogre mages be ogre mages, and oni be their own thing.
Pretty sure it's an Aquaman tracing?
This is actually called the Oni Mage in 4e's MM1.
Except the Ogre Mage has literally always been the Japanese-themed Ogre. Hell, their PC writeup in 2e even says they should use the Honor System from Oriental Adventures and gives them proficiency with the Oriental weapons. Including the Tetsubo (Oni Club).
Ogre as a category can also include non-humanoids like ogre wolves, ogre snakes, things like that. This page has a good listing of "ogres" that appear in tales: sites.ualberta.ca
The issue is that they were inspired by them, but ended up running contrary to them.
In Japan, oni are symbols of strength first and foremost, which is why they are called Japanese ogres. While some did have mystical, demon-like qualities and abilities, we're largely talking about yokai brutes.
In D&D, the yokai element was trumped up to distinguish them from ordinary ogres, and that resulted in a creature that fought differently and acted differently than Japanese Oni, complete with a cone of cold.
Ogre Mages should be that, Ogres who decided to take the wizard (or warlock) class. Arbitrarily calling Oni Ogres because they vaguely looked/acted the same was akin to calling Elf casters "Human Wizards".
Yeah, unfortunately, outside of 3e, the monster races have never played the same way as PCs do, so that's partly where the original Ogre Mage came from.
Anyone been able to find those pics OP mentioned?
What's unfortunate about that?
I love the idea of ogre as a category rather than a creature, and prefer it to a category of giants, which just gives the connotation of something bigger than normal.
Same with goblin, goblins are a category. There are goblins, hobgoblins, goblin-dogs. goblin-pigs, goblin metal and goblin men.
Both words goblin and ogre carry a certain magic.
Here's the oni from the Monster Manual 2. Unfortunately I don't have the Open Grave gallery.
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Awesome! Thank you so much!
I found the one from Open Grave, too.
Incredible! Thanks a lot! Maybe someone else can get the Elemental Magi, but if not, I might be able to rip out the pic from my own PDF of the MMV and use it to boost the article on 1d4chan.
Shame about the Cereborg and Umbramage, though.
So, does anybody have a copy of the Elemental Magi picture from MM5? I'd just copy my own, but it's one of those bastard formats where every single piece of the pic is its own separate file for selection purposes.
>What does Veeky Forums think of the fact that the Ogre Mage, originally called the Japanese Ogre in 1e, was officially renamed the Oni in 4e and 5e?
I thin it's a poor try at pandering to the animu loving part of the community, but I don't really care. I don't usually use Japanese/Chinese stuff in my campaigns, and Blizzard made something wonderful with their own Ogre Magi, so I use them instead of Oni.
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So, nobody ever answered; if you cut their powers back down to a reasonable level - and in fact the PC Ogre Mage in AD&D gained powers as it leveled up - would Oni work for an Oriental Fantasy PC race?