Alright Veeky Forums, this thread isn't made to troll, it's to try and have an actual discussion

Alright Veeky Forums, this thread isn't made to troll, it's to try and have an actual discussion.

I became a vegan roughly 6 months ago, and was vegetarian a year before that. I fucking love the taste of meat, and the convenience of going out with friends and just being able to go to any place and eat anything is something that's sorely missed. A lot of things contributed to the choice, but honestly the main one that keeps me going is how fucking retarded so many people are when they get into arguments with vegans and have none.

I like to think I'm a pretty logical guy, so when my friend introduced me to it I debated him for a long time. The fact is that I was eventually completely out logic'd, with my only remaining argument being "I eat it because it tastes good."

Beyond that, you get into a discussion of whether being a superior species justifies our right to do whatever we want with lower species, but that's a different type of debate. I was able to admit to myself that the only reasons for eating meat, is either out of want, out of needing to for survival, or out of not wanting to make such a huge change in your life.

I 100% respect people that just straight up tell me they know animal husbandry is kind of fucked up, that it's detrimental to the planet and maybe, MAYBE they're someone that understands it's possible to get all vitamins elsewhere, but that they have other shit to worry about in their lives that directly affects them so they just don't care. I understand that, I do.

But fuck the people that jump through mental hoops to actually try and justify why it's not a problem in this day and age, why it's perfectly fine and why vegans are the crazy ones.

I honestly remain vegan out of wanting to be on the side where their only bad quality is caring about life and forcing it too hard on others, over the side that actively supports killing shit for their own pleasure. Pic related, one of the many substitutes. Please come at me.

Other urls found in this thread:

cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/10601/IssueBrief3.pdf
fao.org/fileadmin/templates/wsfs/docs/Issues_papers/HLEF2050_Global_Agriculture.pdf
commondreams.org/views/2012/05/08/we-already-grow-enough-food-10-billion-people-and-still-cant-end-hunger
pnas.org/content/111/33/11996.abstract
johnnyseeds.com/assets/information/direct_seeded_vegetable_crops_calculation_yield_charts.pdf
latestvegannews.com/400-million-fewer-animals-were-killed-for-food-last-year-because-people-are-eating-less-meat/
sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071008130203.htm
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

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Thanks for proving me right man.

/thread

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I like how vegans like their shit to always look like real meat. Make it into green paste like it is.

thats rich, thanks

Plenty of animals die making most everything you have in your house, not to mention the human beings that work near slave labor on your clothes and electronics. Being a vegan for moral reasons is such a half measure. Its the food equivalent of getting mad at racists on twitter but never doing anything to improve inner city life. Patting yourself on the back for doing basically nothing.

I love lots of vegan food and cook them fairly often, but in my opinion all of the fake meat products are garbage. The whole "pretend you are eating normal food" meme is a cancer on vegan food.

Well yeah, most of them still like meat. Not liking the taste of meat isn't the point.

I agree it's a half measure, but the argument "you're still doing bad things so what's the point of making this small change?" isn't even one.

It's something small that you can cut out of your daily life that eases up on your contribution to whatever it is you consider bad. Whether it's being vegan, recycling, using green energy, whatever the fuck.

You realize that if everyone thought that nothing we do matters, we'd be even worse off in general today.

We don't think the ones making an attempt to do something better are assholes. We think the ones being smug about it and going out of their way to berate us and try to convert us are assholes.

And yes, it is stupid. All the vegans in the world, collectively, are drops in the ocean. You are not making a difference as much as you may wish you are. You're up against one of the biggest, and one of the oldest, industries on the planet. You can feel free to abstain from eating meat if it makes you feel better about the whole situation, but to think you're making a difference at all is idiocy.

I'm not going to deprive myself of something I enjoy based on misguided ideals. If you want to, cool. You do you.

Once you realize that veganism is a solution in search of a problem, it becomes clear that the reason so many followers are fucking nonstop spreading the word about it is because they are trying to convince themselves as well as you that what they are doing is more important than anything else.

Fuck, long sentence, sorry.

Vegans are just the same as Mormons going door to door. No real issue to talk about, just want to talk.

To sustain the farming practices necessary for the earth's population to be vegetarian, the majority of all land would have to be used for farming crops. This would result in having to kill/let die all animals all over the world as well as remove their habitat and cause them to go extinct.

People who are vegans/vegetarians on a moral base are delusional idiots.

I've been raw vegan (fruitarian) for 2 years. I did it for health reasons. I never really tried to proselytize veganism and tried to hide my diet to avoid getting called weird.

In the end I gave it up. I saw no benefits of it at all. First I stopped eating raw, then switched to vegetarian, and finally went back to eating meat.

I felt infinitely better after going back to eating meat. I always craved meat while I was vegan and never quite felt full. Now I finally could eat much less and still feel satiated. I quickly built some muscle by exercise. Also, I started spending a lot less on food, and least but not least, people stopped giving me weird looks.

I realized that if my organism wanted meat so much, perhaps it's for the best. I look at results, and I have much more energy and feel much better now.

And if you think you're better than others for not eating meat, you're a conceited bigoted asshole and should kill yourself.

I bet he thinks hunting is immoral too.

When hunters don't control local deer population more people hit them with cars and more people die.

>I honestly remain vegan out of wanting to be on the side where their only bad quality is caring about life and forcing it too hard on others, over the side that actively supports killing shit for their own pleasure.

So basically what you're saying is, the only reason you're vegan is so that you can wallow in your own smug sense of superiority.

Way to save those animals, bucko. I'm sure they appreciate it.

Well I dont deny that theoretically the world could be fed without meat, such an idea is about as likely as world peace. Major economic shifts would have to take place, major cultural and culinary shifts, and less developed countries would find themselves even further behind. Ours is a very first world argument.

Yeah. It's crazy how far reaching the industry actually is, and I'm not sure if we'll ever have the type of global shift most vegans dream about. It's asking people to selflessly stop something they like for the benefit of animals, although I don't know, the past couple of decades have shown a huge increase in awareness in giving a shit about the environment. I remain hopeful, though it may be a fool's hope.

Different issues hold different weight with different people. Some see animal husbandry as a fucked up practice and just want to try and have other people see it the same way. I'm not sure you could actually say there's no issue, because something being an issue, as stated before, is all based on perspective.

As an example, not everyone sees starving kids in Africa as an issue since it doesn't directly affect them. (Before you jump at me for making such a comparison, explain to me why it's not one that works in this case.)

Hunting is fine. Humans are naturally omnivores, so I don't see anything inherently wrong with actually eating meat. The argument is that unless you're in a situation where you need it to survive, there's no good reason outside of just wanting to eat it because you like it.

Absolutely false, it's the reverse.
Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:
Vegan: 1/6th acre

Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan

Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan [xvii]

Robbins, John. Diet for a New America, StillPoint Publishing, 1987, p. 352

pnas.org/content/111/33/11996.abstract

johnnyseeds.com/assets/information/direct_seeded_vegetable_crops_calculation_yield_charts.pdf

Here's my other question for vegans: let's say, hypothetically, we abolish eating meat overnight. What do you want us to do with all the livestock animals currently alive?

Do we just slaughter them all and let them rot? Keep them until they die of old age (and put an enormous financial burden on farmers by making them care for animals they make no profit from)? Turn them loose?

How well do you think domesticated cows or chickens would fare in the wild? Cows are stupid, helpless, meat rectangles on legs that stick out like a sore thumb. They can't even get up on their own if you tip them over. What do you think wolves would do to them?

Do you even know how predators kill larger prey? You think they just kill them quickly? No, they disable them then rip them apart and devour them while they're still living. Doesn't a quick, painless bolt to the head seem much more humane than that?

Problem with op is saying we have to admit. That is some smug shit because your pretty much saying your in the right which means nothing in this world i mean look at trump.

Do the ethical thing and become a cannibal

Save the animals, eat a vegan!

OP here. Glad you asked that. Yeah, they would basically just die. It would be gruesome, where the most efficient way would be to maybe try saving some in various farm sanctuaries that currently operate around the world, but the others would be killed.

Farm animals weren't meant to survive in the wild, we bred them for animal agriculture.

Still, if everyone went vegan overnight, having that period of time with a mass killing would be nothing compared to the daily slaughters that happen on a regular basis.

I didn't say you have to admit, I said my issue is with people that don't present actual arguments or try to keep thinking of reasons why it's not a problem when it is.

Actually, fuck it, I present a counter. So what if I'm a smug asshole? I'm completely open to debating and I do change the way I think about topics provided someone can convince me that I have it wrong. If you don't feel like talking to me about it that's fine, but who are you or anyone else to tell people that they're wrong and assholes without looking into the reason behind what they're saying?

No way man, raising himan beings is a massive waste of resources. It requires well over 60 times the resources of being vegan

This. You assume your way is the only correct way. This is the height of arrogance.

>Humans are naturally omnivores

Well, presumably you want more people to become vegans. Being a smug asshole is generally not a good way to make people sympathetic to your cause.

As a vegan, I don't take the bait, get this shit thread out of here.

I think the problem is the onus is on vegans to prove that their theoretical math and studies can be turned into a reasonable method of feeding large groups of people.

I like to compare a lot of the studies that you and your ilk like to post to communism: it makes a lot of sense on paper but in practice it is massively inferior to the current system.

You assess the worth of the action based on the person talking about it then? Someone can be arrogant and smug and still be correct. There are plenty of times where I had to admit that some guy I didn't like at work that got on everyone's nerves was still right at the end of the day. He didn't win any points socially, but fuck it, he was right.

I probably messed up since being smug or arrogant isn't a good way to have others give your idea a chance, but a person's attitude about something shouldn't be a factor, since attitude is based on their personal feelings.

I felt the same towards vegans until I actually realized "oh shit no wonder they look like assholes, this practice is terrible and nobody else cares how do I tell other people about it delicately while also correctly communicating without pushing too hard on it?"

Do you have any idea how much land is being used for not only animals like cattle but land to feed them grains and plants in general?

Do you know how much CO2 emissions there are from animals in general due to the fact we mass produce them?

"For the benefit of animals"

Fucking topkek. You have no idea how much the suffering of animals contributes to your ability to live.

I work in frontier immunology. In my laboratory alone we have over 1,200 cages of mice for research and testing purposes. They do not have a good time.

Construction destroys animal habitats. Farmers kill herbivores to protect their crops.

You can't win this. Biology is full circle. Ultimately, none of it really matters. You're going to be something's food someday, kiddo.

You're still killing less animals in the end, it's about minimalism

Not saying it won't be difficult, but this wouldn't be an overnight thing.

A slow shift would be required, a very slow shift. The first issue though is the current industry of course wanting to do anything possible to not have that happen. It's the same as any big business preventing progress like the oil companies and electric cars.

You are definitely a smug asshole.

We don't want to hear this shit. This is a food and cooking board. You're talking about eliminating VERY MANY valuable ingredients that can be used in the pursuit of culinary satisfaction.

That's one reason.

Here's more:
Speciesism.
It tastes excellent.
It's part of my culture
I don't believe in your environmental alarmism

But here's the biggest reason why:
I mostly eat meat because of people like you. I purposefully go out of my way to consume more meat than I otherwise would and propagate the industry because I dislike the fact that you feel the need to shove this shit into our faces at every turn.

I'm going to go enjoy some bratwurst now. Take care.

Broken record again, with the "you're still doing bad shit so why not make everything you do bad shit!"

it holds no water. If nobody gave a shit about anything, we'd be in a much worse place. If nobody voted, our government wouldn't work (much can be debated about this but you get the idea).

It's not an argument that works because the entire goal of the vegan lifestyle is to minimize impact. It's just me, but I feel like it's childish to laugh at someone for making an effort in their own life to see how small they are compared to everyone, but still choose to practice what they preach.

Yeah, we all die one day, but the way we live life up till that point is what gives it any meaning.

Yeah, it probably shouldn't matter, but that's not how human nature works. If you don't like someone, you are unlikely to listen to what they say. That's the problem with vegans, they deal with ideals, not reality.

I find it funny when people get upset and counter back with "I'll eat the meat you don't eat just because of that!!"

I'm effectively still assisting the cause whenever someone gets rustled that fucking much because they decide (yet possibly not go through with) to shove more meat down their throat in anger, possibly leading to health issues later on.

Maybe ask yourself why they shove this shit into your face instead of having knee-jerk reactions. And maybe ask yourself why you get so angry at someone suggesting the idea that maybe something you're not used to thinking about as wrong, quite possibly is an issue.

How are we killing less animals in the end?

To maintain the strains of mice that I'm in charge of, I have to regularly execute around 30 mice every 3 months like clockwork. That's for a single strain of mice in my specialization. These mice are only used to maintain the mice for future research use.

I've been doing this for a long time, man. Ultimately, if your complaint is about exploitation of animals then I think you need to look more broadly. Everything uses everything else. I'm using the government for my scholarship. It's using the people. The whole world is a big series of organisms using leverage on one another.

My eating meat both benefits and hurts whatever organism I eat. It's the same with you and plants. When you start splitting hairs about what non-human animals get to have the privilege of personhood then you create a slippery slope that you can't possibly shore up. It can never end.

Text can't convey emotion, user. Calm down.

>reading a vegan thread while eating delicious beef jerky

It's probably nothing compared to the health problems caused from eating the chemical sawdust that is fake meat/eggs.

You guys always talk about "minimising" and "minimalism", but all you've really done is pick a different compromise on the line from "actual minimal" to "animal mass murderer".

You're standing at a window watching a robbery, patting yourself on the back for not taking part.

What does your research have anything to do with land use? That is not the discussion.

"For the benefit of the animals" pertained to land usage and not slaughtering them

Not mass breeding and slaughtering animals as well as dedicating lands of grains and plants for them to eat is far more environmentally efficient (good for all) and involves less deaths of animals than otherwise

Again, minimalism, this is something you are ignoring and being an edgelord about that is explained here

It is splitting hairs, although most vegans draw the line at anything we currently consider sentient life.

I honestly don't believe that me being vegan equates to overall less animals being killed, although meat consumption in the US is at an all time low.

latestvegannews.com/400-million-fewer-animals-were-killed-for-food-last-year-because-people-are-eating-less-meat/

So yeah, the vegan lifestyle is having a large affect on the industry.

I agree that it's also just life, and life is shit no matter what type of creature you are, and it's just a bid to get higher up to not have to suffer. At the same time, if you're in a position where you can either choose to support the industry, or not, just in my mind it makes the most sense to not.

Exploitation is everywhere, but that doesn't mean people have to resign themselves to it in all parts of their lives.

It's literally impossible to live without harming something.

You're just being an obtuse retard because in this case it helps you make you feel better about yourself for being an objectively destructive sociopathic asshole

Alright let's not start getting into name calling. This thread has been fairly civil back and forth so far.

I'm just taking issue with your misuse of words. You could become a Jain, brushing the path in front of you with a shed ostrich feather. You could live off moss and devote your life to promoting harm reduction. Stop calling "not eating meat" "minimal".

You'll also note my analogy refers to meat eaters as robbers? I hardly absolved it of moral harm.

>you could live off of moss

No you can't. You're reverting to extremes to compensate for the fact you're not arguing something entirely practical that is still actually very minimal

It is entirely minimal, you're not actually presenting any reasonable arguments as to why it isn't. You seem to be trying to convince yourself at this point.

OP again, you're right. Honestly if we 100% gave a shit, we would drop everything and become a Jainist, go out and live away from modern society to try and have the least impact possible.

The truth is is that most people have a limit as to what they can give up for the sake of a cause. Being vegan in a society where tons of people still find it ridiculous isn't the easiest thing, but it's still within the realm of simple possibility without affecting your life too much.

So yes, I could be doing much more, but everyone has limits.

I think the reason that vegans are still adamant about other people trying the lifestyle as well, is that it's a restriction that's possible without asking something as extreme as becoming a Jainist.

Many people just dismiss it, although as I mentioned in the opening post, lots of people dismiss plenty of things that don't directly affect them, because life is hard. I don't not respect people that ignore it for that reason, since I was in that position not too long ago myself.

It's not completely minimal, and he does have a point. Most of the technology we have was obtained through the exploitation of something else. It's difficult to live without having any impact whatsoever.

His argument is fairly reasonable. Other vegans also need to know when to admit when their points have been shot down too, and find the middle ground.

The wolf doesn't give a fuck what the lamb thinks. You've given up your position of apex predator. Leave this place.

I eat vegetarian about 95% of the time. I cook nearly every meal I eat, and I make vegetarian food. I won't refuse meat if a family member cooks it, and I don't expect them to become vegetarians or cater to me. Not sure I could do vegan. I still use cheese, dairy, and eggs fairly often, though not the majority of meals.

Well obviously not eating meat isn't the only thing. But it's still quite a step.

>most of the technology we have obtained through the exploitation of something else

Which is why you still advocate for more sensible means of extraction. The technology itself isn't the inherent issue. It's something else at play

>its difficult to live without having any impact

Like I said

>his argument is fairly reasonable

No, it's actually quite dismissive based on the grounds completely different things that are going on, as well as going to fictional extremes.

Just because not eating meat isn't the only solution, does not mean it is not an effective remedy to minimizing the impact you have.

You bring up another argument that I've often thought about in my head as well.

It's true that in the wild, predators don't care about their prey and only see them as a food source. But that's either because they evolved to be true carnivores, or it's a survival situation.

We've evolved enough to honestly not need to kill animals to survive. If you then argue speciesism, then shouldn't we also be above killing things for sport?

No one here is a wolf or lamb

Though you might be the latter since you've bought into a ridiculous carnist idea to justify an entirely different idea.

I pretty much totally agree with you. I feel like I should be vegan or at least eat less meat, but it's a huge source of enjoyment for me, so I try and indulge it responsibly.

I only use extremes as examples to try and map out the argument space, though I do sort of feel like Jains have a lot going for them. I'm only arguing that it's not a simple case of moral points out of ten for your diet, vegans get 10. Human food use and the moral dimensions of it are more complicated than a simple better or worse.

I want to know how you hunt, butcher and cook a noisy self-righteous vegan

You're fucking full-retard if you believe that people aren't already engaging in your so-called "minimalism." That's what people do. You get the best deal for a specific amount of resources you're willing to put forth for what you want.

That's the founding principle of all biological systems, and most importantly, capitalism.

What you're advocating is an impossibility. As long as capitalism is in sway, your ideal can never be realized.

You're pissing in the wind and it's blowing back into your face. But feel free to jerk yourself off about your fantasies. It demonstrates how little you really do know.

It certainly is having a big effect. But that doesn't really concern me so much. If there really is a food item that can replicate the taste and texture of meat then it's a moot point to me. The caveat is that I don't think that it will be possible for quite some time.

I dig where you're coming from with the idea of inducing and experiencing suffering, but that is literally how life goes around.

If you have a smartphone then someone is probably getting cancer right now to give it to you. We are literally experiencing some form of exploitation at every second of the day. At this moment we are being exploited for ad revenue.

I just think that it's silly to say that animal exploitation is not ok while other exploitation of human beings and plants are ok. In any case, nice conversation with you m80.

Reasons I'm not vegan are because

I don't think it would make a difference, people are still going to eat meat no matter what

I'd rather support more humane animal husbandry practices by buying things like cage free, grass fed bs than vegan alternatives which do little to nothing for the cause other than make money for often the same companies practicing inhumane farming

i don't want to miss out on the culture and recipes and social events/people that come with being an omnivore (who wants to be that friend that orders salad at a steakhouse and never get invited again. i don't want to make a new circle of friends or have people rotate their plans entirely on me because of my choices)

it's less diet restrictive

i can eat vegan food if i want to anyways but not the other way around

it tastes good

>if you believe that people aren't already engaging in your so called minamilism

Why is this even relevant? Who said otherwise?

>what you're advocating is an impossibility

It's highly unlikely with dumbasses like you, that's not the point though

>it demonstrates how little you know

Wow, what an argument. You haven't actually refuted a single thing and are just talking in pure hypotheticals which are completely irrelevant

You must've thought you actually said something profound

You didn't. You just sound like more of a fucking idiot than you already are.

It's not going to make a difference if you do nothing about it and don't take any steps to someone else not doing it.

Cage free, grass fed are still slaughtered in the end and there's nothing to suggest that they're treated all that well besides that

>i dont want to miss out on culture and recipes

Selfish, you can still experience culture without actually having to eat meat. Those people aren't worthwhile if they're as superficial to not want you because you don't eat meat. That's absurd. If it really bothers you that much then eat meat when you dine out, or better yet you can actually introduce them to vegan friendly restaurants or simply cook for them and invite them over to your place

Cry more you little faggot.

I feel sorry for your friends and family.

You're calling him selfish. That's rich.

Good argument again

Time for you to kill yourself and actually make your family happy

>b-b-b-ut you arent' 100% by nature, so fuck the world!!!!

Kek, you must be obese

That's funny, I didn't realize my decision of eating meat was bound by whether or not I thought people would like it.

I'm not above killing for sport, I have a license to hunt pests on government land. Life is fleeting for all living things, what you think of as a precious rabbits life is but the blink of an eye for the ancient and mighty oak. The death of an animal is not just inconsequential but also inevitable and whether it dies to fill my pot, or from calicivirus or myxomatosis or under the wheels of a car does not matter in the big picture.

You probably wouldn't even flinch if I or some 3rd world kid died of starvation so you should stop being such an impressionable soft cunt and wake up.

Even if a whole town or state or country goes vegan, it won't shut down the meat industry. You literally doesn't matter if you eat meat or not. You have less power than you think. By going vegan, all you are supporting are vegan alternatives. By buying grass fed and cage free, you support those industries and more humane alternatives and maybe down the line support even more humane options as those industries grow bigger and people notice "hey this brand promoting cage free isnt humane enough! lets buy this other brand that supports small farmers!"

Your suggestions are having people entirely rotate their plans to be friends with you which they said they didn't want and you can't eat meat when you're on a restrictive vegan diet because it will make you sick. Also when people exclude vegans, its not them not wanting them around because they're vegan, it's because they think they wouldn't enjoy going to a restaurant with no vegan options around and eventually after enough outtings, people drift off. No one was excluding vegans maliciously on purpose but it was more like "nah let's not invite them because they probably won't enjoy it."

Hey OP, I haven't even read this thread and I'm sure you've been given a lot of shit for it, but it's all the same typical stuff, I'm sure.

I've been vegan for a year, and I started for ethical reasons but I feel fantastic, and honestly, meat and cheese cravings completely stop after maybe a month or so, or at least they did for me. I take no supplements and I eat like a fucking king (being able to cook pretty well helps; I don't think I could do this if I couldn't cook vegan food for myself) and I've had no problems.

I feel like it's much easier in this day and age to be vegan than it was even maybe five years ago. There's so many dairy and meat substitute products on the market, and I still get to eat shit like bacon cheeseburgers, mac and cheese, ice cream, yogurt, etc etc.

vegan protip: There's a brand of meat substitutes called Gardein, they make the best burger patties.

>it wont' shut down the meat industry

I'm well aware.

You're obviously not going to change the world in 1 year. A little bit goes a long way. Your solution of buying more "humane" does nothing to remedy the issue. It just justifies people's current habits with a different way of approaching it. Which is not what should be promoted by veganism

>your suggestions are having people entirely rotate their plans to be friends

No, it's not. And again if someone is so unbelievably stubborn as to not even entertain the idea of having a vegan friend that they have to deal with when choosing dining options or going to a vegan restaurant, then they probably aren't worthwhile people to begin with. Regardless of that, I even suggested just plainly eating accordingly if you dine out somewhere if this is such an issue, if you're not that committed to veganism to begin with, I doubt you'd have any issue with eating steaks only if you got out somewhere. Again, these are very superficial reasons that can be very easily accommodated for.

>because it will you make you sick
?

here

>You literally doesn't matter if you eat meat or not.

You are completely correct. One person or even a hundred people makes no difference. For me, doing this is just my way to opt out of a system that just I don't believe in and can't support.

Maybe that's retarded, and I full well know that it's just to make ME feel better, but here we are.

Hey I wish I could go vegan, there's a lot of compelling arguments for it and all, but too be honest I just like meat, and haven't invested the energy to trying to convert.

You're making a difference but it's not that big in itself. Setting a good example and telling others is far more power. Even not being vegan and simply eating more plant based foods is a step in the right direction.

My mom being vegetarian influenced us and a lot of her friends to just generally eat a lot more plant based foods

It's a chain of influence

>>because it will you make you sick
>?

I haven't (regularly, intentionally) eaten any dairy for a year, and when I accidentally do (cross contamination, restaurants not being forthright about ingredients) I'm on the toilet for hours.

Your body gets super unused to processing dairy rather quickly after you stop eating it, which is interesting. I dunno if it's the same for meat, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Try a few substitute products and see if there's any you like, nothing to lose. OP pic is okay, there's also Gardein and Beyond Meat and Field Roast and Yves and all sorts of stuff, you can find them at pretty much any grocery store. They aren't really any more expensive (and sometimes cheaper) than the 'premium' (grass fed, organic) meat you can buy.

I know there's at least one guy at work I was talking to (he asked, I'm not the type to go around all DID YOU KNOW I'M VEGAN???) who seemed interested in trying it, so there's that.

there are stories of vegans throwing up after eating meat again but not from any moral/ethical reason but from their body not being able to handle it. just a few weeks would change your gut flora enough, but long time vegetarians seem to have less problems transitioning back into eating meat or switching back and forth. transitioning back into eating meat have a lot of guides online saying to start off slow with bone broths.

those beast burgers are not burgers

theyre the fucking devil

D
E
V
I
L

It's like a dog shit patty after they ate toilet paper, grass and some poor mouse. Fuck outta here

there are a lot more vegan options these days which make it easier. a few years ago, all you had was boca burger and all restaurants offered were undressed salads.

Claiming the moral high ground for being vegan while attempting to emulate non-vegan foods because you still like them is roughly equivalent to publicly opposing slavery and then paying a black person to wait on you hand and foot and pretend they don't have a choice because it gratifies you sexually.

Just fuck off for once, you culinary Mormon.

wow, what's it like to be so retarded?

It actually isn't in any way at all. But continue on with your delusions

I suggest supplementing it with lithium however.

The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves. ...Whenever you attacked one of the apostles, your hand closed around slimy matter which immediately separated and slipped through the fingers and the next moment reconstituted itself. If you struck such an annihilating blow that, observed by the audience, he had no choice but to agree with you, and thus you thought you had taken one step forward, the next day your amazement would be great. The vegan knew nothing at all about yesterday and repeated his same old twaddle as though nothing had happened; if you angrily challenged him on this, he could not remember a thing other than he had demonstrated the correctness of his assertions on the previous day.

Many times I stood there astonished.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: their verbal agility or their art in lying.

Gradually, I began to hate them.

Cage free and grass fed are marketing ploys and that's about it. You're right to assume that any farmed meat you're buying at a supermarket chain is not treated well.

Honestly, once you get out of the factory farm environment though, treating an animal poorly isn't conducive to good farming. Smaller, traditional, sustainable farming depends on the non-food benefits of the animals living there as much as if not more than on the food they might yield. Yes, they are slaughtered in the end and I realize that that gets right to one of the big ethical problems, but if we're talking about change at any level being a good thing, then treating the animals well while they're alive is a good change.

If you want people to eat less meat (for their ethical reasons or not) a more practical approach might be to work on getting the government to stop subsidizing feed and fuel crops (I know, it won't happen...) and to start funding crops that can actually support people and I don't mean corn and soy. Without those feed crops, factory farming becomes completely unsustainable.

Not directly related to what I said, but still... There's an interesting article about how, if New York switched to a vegetarian diet, the land could support more people than the current meat heavy diet, but if they shifted to a mostly vegetarian diet with some dairy and meat they could support even more because grazing and foraging animals don't require the type of quality soil that's needed to actually support major crop growth. That would require, again, a move out of the factory farm environment. Too many animals would overwhelm any pasture or forageable land.

Article I mentioned: sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071008130203.htm

>that DNR

m8
first rule of vegan club is tell everyone about vegan club

we don't want to be some club that looks down on other people. we want everyone to join us, and then there wouldn't even be anyone to look down on

Although there are more than one reason to eat meat eating it he size it tastes good is enough of a reason to justify doing it and nobody was ever able to prove that wrong

>Hey guys I'm a vegan because I can't justify torture of a living thing for pleasure
Posted form a computer made by slave children

You can make computers without it

Can't make meat without killing the animal

>You can make computers without it
Current global economic trends say otherwise.

Also, what about cultural backgrounds.
Native Eskimo people have a diet that consists
of mostly meat that they hunt and kill to survive
Go tell them that they have been doing wrong and try to convert them to veganism.

That's their decision.