I hate Islam

I hate Islam.

I want to be able to criticise it thoroughly.

Do I need to learn Arabic for that?

If I do, how do I best learn it?

Other urls found in this thread:

marrakeshdeclaration.org/
sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6347194
muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Go for some Hilaire Belloc

that's not how things work

that hoe looks like an alien lmao

She's beautiful.

>I hate Islam
>I can't back it up with arguments

Make up your own mind for once, you normie.

I can, but muslims just dismiss arguments with "but you haven't read the quran in the holy language so you can't comment."

Yes, you should learn Arabic.
Also there are many other things you need to learn.
Then, when you are no longer ignorant, you will no longer hate.

He will only have pitty for the poor ignorant souls with a shit religion

Learn about the distinction between Shia and Sunni.

Is there any really evil demonic shit I could read in arabic? Other than the quran.

>pitty
>mfw

kys

Read Sufi poetry.

Educate yourself about Islam fully.

Hate Wahhabism and hate imperialism for drawing up the Ottoman empire on pipelines.

Shia Islam has kewl aesthetics. Saints, prophecies, martyrdom, dank rituals...It's almost like the Islamic equivalent to Orthodoxy.

Throw back that they speak an entirely different dialect of Arabic and don't understand shit themselves. (And most of them learned it by heart in their preteen years, where it was practically a different language to them.)
The fact that they are incapable of citing the Quran without citing three different Hadith/contemporary scholars, speaks to that fact.
And then throw back at them, that significant portion of Muslims aren't actually Arabic and that they are dismissing pretty much all of them.

So don't learn Arabic to read the Quran, it's a waste of time. Arabs barely understand it. It's like learning German to read Middle High German poetry.

Look, if you REALLY want to argue with Muslims, you will have to beat them at their own game. Namely that most Muslims are really bad at being Muslim.
So learn about Islam historically and concentrate on moderate scholars and Muslim critics.

I don't like Maajid Nawaz, but his book with Sam Harriss was good.
Seyyed Hossein Nazr will give you insight on what good Islam actually looks like, with proper historical and theological argumentation.
Also read up on this and check out some of the scholars who spoke here:
marrakeshdeclaration.org/
It gave me great insight on some details.

Muslims are stubborn as fuck and culturally it's just really offensive to question Islam. It's just their upbringing. Remember that this whole secular/critical thinking thing is a very special cultural gem, which didn't really take off for us until a couple centuries ago.
A big point in their core belief system is the perfection of not only the Quran, but also Muhammed himself. It's dumb but it propagated this whole "Don't think about it too hard.".

I have found that the solution is not to bash Islam but to make them believe you are genuinely interested and know your shit enough to talk with them.

We all know that it is a pointless effort to try and eradicate religion (directly). What we can do, however, is create reformists in the name of "becoming better Muslims". Once they are moderate enough, the same thing will happen as in every Christian country you know. People lose interest and just slowly drop out and/or the religion steadily loses any social meaning, until it's just an excuse to have holidays.

all you need is a bulletproof vest

shes hotter in hijab

Isn't it intellectually dishonest to pursue knowledge with a premeditated agenda, rather than learning and then making up your mind about something?

>And then throw back at them, that significant portion of Muslims aren't actually Arabic and that they are dismissing pretty much all of them.

I like this.

Thanks.

FUCKING DROPPED

Several questions
Are you the OP of the other islam thread we have going on?
Why do you think you hate islam?
Why exactly would you want to criticise islam? (answer fully).

yes it is welcome to Veeky Forums enjoy your stay

How can I marry Rihanna? It's important, I'm asking it for a friend.

You can't because I'm going to. I appreciate your interest, but if you ever think about my future wife again, your fucking dead, kiddo.

At least 6 months of boxing lessons.

Oh, you must be that friend of mine. Congrats m8 :)

>Are you the OP of the other islam thread we have going on?
No.

>Why do you think you hate islam?
Because I worship Satan. Hail Satan.

>Why exactly would you want to criticise islam?
Because I want to do my small part in helping to destroying god.

I want Rihanna to stare at me with disdain

>Hate Wahhabism and hate imperialism for drawing up the Ottoman empire on pipelines.
fucking this

i want rihanna to sit on my face while maintaining that perrenially bored expression

That shouldn't be difficult.

Except better since it's not tangled up in the logical nightmare of Christology.

No one's ever said that.

Insha'Allah

This is a very dishonest post, especially "this whole secular/critical thinking thing is a very special cultural gem". Obviously Muslims have been thinking critically since they've been around or people from Ibn Sina to Muhammad Iqbal wouldn't exist. It also ignores that secularism and secular/liberal attitudes amongst Muslims is entirely common and has been common since at least those ideas came about. It's a common opinion that the recent fundamentalist extremists are in fact a reaction to the success of secularism especially amongst Arabs and Turks. The Western powers and their assassination programs and installations of dictators, not to mention their arming and training of illiterate conservative peasants to fight in proxy wars, are what made salafi/wahhabi seem viable.

Those secular/liberal muslims need to become atheists.

Of course, it's all the West's fault. Go fuck yourself.

he didn't say it was all the West's fault mind you

Salman Rushdie.

Step 1: realize that abrahamic religions all share the same core of toxic resentment and slave morality.
Step 2: realize that Protestants and secular cultural Christians are a much greater threat to humanity.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Prophet?

>implying everyone "needs" to be an atheist
user pls

I'd really like to know if there are books of black magic in arabic, grimoires and so on.

Not everyone. There's room on the planet for both atheists and Satanists.

Atheist thought is too tainted by Protestantism. It's just the forth flavor of abrahamism. We need pagans and satanists, not atheists.

>Step 1: realize that abrahamic religions all share the same core of toxic resentment and slave morality.
You have no idea what you're talking about. Slave morality was a Christianity-specific thing.

>Satanists
>falling for a decadent, hedonistic, shallow meme religion

>falling for a decadent, hedonistic, shallow meme religion
I'm not a muslim.

If Islam had sprouted out of your culture and sounded familiar to you, you would dismiss it as simply another incorrect idea. But because Islam sounds foreign and because the media hypes up the atrocities a few thousand (out of a BILLION) people commit, it's some dangerous and evil religion you hate.

Try learning Arabic.
Then try reading the Qur'an.
Then try reading the Hadiths.
Then try reading Al-Ghazali, Avicenna, and others.
Then speak to a Muslim sheik or imam.
Then go watch a few videos from IslamOnDemand, on YouTube.
Then consider where you came from and think deeply about the larger existential questions.
Then try praying and understanding this different point of view.
Then try to see some of the positive aspects of Islam.
Then try to name any negative aspects of Islam.
Then ask yourself of you have any authority to question God: a being infinitely more knowledgable and powerful than you.
Then consider the hell Fire.
Then consider Heaven.
Then consider Earth.
Then consider Reality.

Then discuss Islam in a moderated debate with a sheik if you still have any doubts or disagreements.

In groups of kids you sometimes have this weird kid who talks too much and tries to get others to ask him a question by flaunting a ridiculous detail, like he's holding his arm in pain but you will have to ask him three times how he got hurt so he can feel powerful because you're awaiting his response which will be "oh, one time I got hurt much worse than that in a fight", and he will fucking glare at you to ask who the fight was with and did he win.

Right now the Satanist user is trying to garner responses by flaunting his edgy meme religion of satanism in every way he can and you just bit.

Judaism became monotheistic in order to distance themselves from their Babylonian masters. It is very much a slave religion. Half the bible is "Do the opposite of whatever Babylon does." In other words be a bunch of stupid barbarians.

Christianity just continued the tradition by using Babylon as a code-word for Rome. Today the modern Babylon is run by life denying Christians, and we are all suffering for it.

No, I hate christianity too.

The desert religions are the most 'edgy meme religions' in existence.

The original Abrahamic faith (Islam) wasn't tainted by the ethnocentrist, legalist, blood-soaked, patriarchal nature of Judaism or the polytheistic, sacrificial, pushover, contradictory nature of Christianity.

>this scar? It's nothing. Let me show you my other scar on my upper thigh. I got it when I attacked a tiger while on vacation
*begins hitching down his trousers as you wave at him hurriedly and say it's ok I believe you*

Why do facts trigger you so much?

>original Abrahamic faith (Islam)
wtf are you serious?

The final prophet was Muhammad.
The first prophet was Adam.

Judaism was religion founded after generations of deviation and corruption. The religion came about in its ethnocentric, patriarchal (un-Islamic) form when the nation of Judeah and Israel were forming.

Christianity is as polytheistic as Hinduism.
Brahman = Father
Vishnu = Son
Shiva = Holy Ghost

Islam was and will always be the only true monotheism.

>king of the pile of shit

It also had (and still has) slavery until modern times, child rape, and a billion Muslims can't defeat the "Chosen People" building a cool Jewfort in the desert. And I'm pretty sure you guys wipe your asses with your hands.

I wish Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca were all wiped from the face of the Earth.

First of all it was about Islam TODAY. If you honestly believe secularism and religious freedom within the religion are not part of the crisis Islam faces today, you are the one being intellectually dishonest.

Secondly my recommended reading was largely pointed to research Muslim history and diversity. The best way to shut up an orentalist who tries to tell you "muh old traditions" is to bitchslap him with centuries of factual history.

I just realized that this instant regressive leftist Tourettes post was probably bait. But no matter.
Salafism and Orientalism have to die. We can all agree on that.

Islam has an entire legal system about owning people.
It's quite similar to moden 9-5 office job contracts.

In my experience, Muslims who do this kind of "different point of view" thing, are quite allergic to doing it themselves.

Have you ever seriously considered Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or, dare I say, Atheism?

You probably didn't. Because, as we both know, to ever seriously consider these things would be blasphemy.

And don't give me that "Oh, but we Muslims must be critical with ourselves! We are very critical!"
I'm willing to bet, that you have never considered that Muhammed or the Quran itself are just as fallible as anything else man-made.
And I am also willing to bet that whenever you consider different viewpoints, you either only do it superficially (I bet you think Buddha was a saint or a god) or you only view it through a Muslims perspective.

Look. I am not telling you to become an apostate. I am however pointing out to you, that you belong to a denomination that practices their religion in a mainly emotional way. (We both know how it makes you feel when the Quran is being recited properly.)
Your culture, while perhaps trying to become better Muslims, never put their basic concepts under scrutiny. Which is sad, because I genuinely think that it wouldn't only make you better Muslims, but better people. And to be a better person should always be the basis on which you build whatever you believe. Not the other way around.

Do you want me to start naming all the angels and comparing them to other polytheistic religions?
And don't get me started on djins & Co.

But all that aside, you will only become monotheistic, when you stop pretending like Muhammed was infallible. He was a prophet. That's all.

>implying its mystical bullshittery about a secret, immortal imam coming out of a well is sooo much better

I can tell both these posts were made by the same person bc you don't know how to use commas.
I'm not the guy you're responding to. Learn2write.

You are correct.
Thank god I'm not a writer.

You have emotional issues.

At least that's something that can be imagined. Trying to understand the Trinity and Hypostatic Union ALWAYS, without fail, ends it "I don't know user, it's simply a divine mystery how this is supposed to make sense"

Muhammad was the only religious leader to denounce slavery, racism, and gave women the right to own property and divorce their husbands.

Meanwhile, the Christian account of Jesus portrays him more of a cult leader than a man of God. And the ancient Judaic law is either never followed in full (because it's so insane), or it's followed only by radicals.

Islam is a religion that actually works, accurately describes God, and expertly deals with the problem of good and evil.

>the problem of good and evil

There is no problem for those of us who aren't retarded, and thus able to go beyond your Semitic desert morality.

What about all the Protestants? And at any rate, destroying three cities would not end a global religion.

I was born to a Catholic family but converted to Islam later on. I've considered all of this very carefully. I have kept my Mexican-American culture and have added my belief in and love for Allah. Don't conflate Arab culture with Islam.

What do you follow then? What have the sterile laboratory results determined? The men in the white suits, the men in the suits and ties--THEY have all the answers because they live in an urban forested area, not a desert. Go on, tell me if you have all the answers.

>I've considered all of this very carefully.
I doubt you really have...
But I'm not gonna start an edgy "anti-theism" debate.
>Don't conflate Arab culture with Islam.
I'm not sure if you are telling us all that you simply constructed your own version of Islam or if you honestly don't know how deeply entwined those two things are.

Either way, what I said still stands. Doesn't really matter that much if you joined the faith.

Not the one you responded to, but basic humanity would be the short answer. If you like, we can add about 2500+ years of philosophical contemplation on the matter.

Something that btw does not conflict with Muslim concepts of morality at all.

>What do you follow then?

I think the rewards waiting for you in paradise is the most laughable part. White camels, rivers of honey and virgins with big breasts. Gee, it would surely be the greatest thing imaginable if I was a sexually repressed goat herder
Also Islam is literally stagnation. They don't produce any worthwhile literature, cinema, technology or music because it's secondary to being muslim and having sex with virgins in heaven.

lol The basic assumptions of Islam, whether metaphysical or ethical, are - like those of any religion - easy to shit on without knowing the original languages.

>Lol, just learn Arabic bro, then it'll ALL make sense :^)

Rephrase whatever you're trying to say for my retarded ass, plox.

Check out /r/atheism. They have arguments, all grounded in logic, reason, and science, that will blow away the religious and make them beg for the sweet release of death.

Most Muslims deflect all criticism by white people with "You didn't read it in Arabic, m8. You wouldn't understand. You can only understand it if you speak Arabic!"
Omitting the fact that the Quran is written in an old ass dialect the vast majority of Arabs today don't fully understand.

...

More to the point, implying that the meaning of something is fundamentally can't be known, just because it is written in another language, is absurd.

There is no language upon Earth, apart from genuinely dead languages (and even then, not always) that cannot be translated.

At WORST, you may need to approximate some things; but even then, this is not an obstacle. There is no equivalent English word for the German 'Schadenfreude', for example; so we describe the term with a phrase instead.

Problem fucking solved. There is no 'Arabic' mystery/magic.

>Trying to understand
>what is faith
>who is Kierkegaard

all languages have their own shortcomings, and translation increases those shortcomings exponentially. so while there's no more "mystery" or "magic" to Arabic than there is to English or to Mandarin, but each language does have a unique "mystery" or "magic" that gets lost when translated.

Isn't it just better to laugh at them and shame their culture for being inferior in every measurable way possible? Obviously done in a roundabout way, wouldn't want to antagonize them more than necessary

Well unluckily for you, one can never achieve 'native' levels of fluency; so even if you DO learn Arabic, you will still not have the mystery nor the magic.

At best, you'll be an accurate Google Translink.

Criticism of the basic metaphysical and ethical assumptions of any Abrahamic faith does not require conversance in the original language of the faith concerned.

Veeky Forums is going full retard.

not sure how this is relevent but ok

i don't really give a shit either way, i was just making a point that there is a difference between reading something in its native language and reading it in translation.

Things do get lost in translation. Which is why in academia, you will simply adopt some terminology.

Muslims are picky with the Quran, because the language it was written in was specifically constructed for it. And in their faith, any and all translations are marely abbreviations and therefore not as "perfect" as the original.

They still get butthurt when you burn English versions, tho.

>Things do get lost in translation.

Not to the extent that people make out, for example, fundamental changes of meaning.

Any change of meaning is fundamental, if the word is important enough.
What kind of shit storm do you think would be going on, if every language started translating stuff like "a posteriori/priori"?

False translations are also a common criticism of modern interpretations of the Bible.

Btw is it possible to bring Aisha on topic when discussing this stuff with other people. I've tried once or twice but people got visibly uncomfortable and it kind of gets explained away with well european kings also married children and so on. Shouldn't it be a legitimate topic since Muhammad is seen as the perfect man for all ages? Especially considering we're having this issue where I live with refugees arriving with their children brides and people don't know how to handle the situation

From where are there and how young are those children?

From where are *they

Syria I believe, most of them are between 15 and 17 but some are even as young as 13 or 14. We're talking about at least 70 kids so far
sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6347194
Yes, I'm from Sweden and that's not some fringe news site

Wow. Can't wait to see what Trump will do to your ass.

Just kill yourself now

Oh, yeah. We have the same thing in Germany.

To be fair, the marriagable age to be as high as we are used to, is quite high and also kind of a newer thing. (For reference: In Catholocism it is technically 14 for girls and 16 for boys. Many American states also have set the age to 16.)

It's really just a situation where a couple of our own laws clash. Luckily the numbers of this happening are quite low, so it's more a question of principle.
In Germany we have had very positive experiences with the behavior Syrians in particular. Which was to be expected, but there was still a sigh of relief. And while it is technically legal in Syria, most of them think it odd or simply not necessary.
I'm guessing your kids also mainly come from very rural areas.

Meh. Not really worth the debate, imo. As long as it isn't straight up pedophilia (ages like 9, like with the extremists), I'd be willing to respect the lawful marriage as they intend to go back home, when able. Child protective laws would still be in effect, so if ever the children are being mistreated, they can still be taken away.

But this is a little off topic. And I can already hear some /pol/ack rolling in.

I don't really like Islam either but it's generally not a good idea to form an opinion about something before you look into it.

desu there's reason to doubt the conventional narrative
muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm