Goethe and Faust

It is a fair point de geso ringushan senpai. They employ reason and use it to be more animal than animal.

who /faustistic/ here?

>5 of Goethe's Faust
Why?

...

Because Germans can't into poetry, it's that simple.

The reason they were so musically prolific is because music does not require language; least of all the shitty German language.

huh

>The reason they were so musically prolific
Name literally one good german composer

Guter Köder, meine Freunde.

Found the Austrian pedant.

Nonetheless, Wagner is GREAT.

>Austrians
>not German
Anyway, Germany has the three B's (Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms)

>Bach
Hungarian
>Beethoven
Spanish
>Brahms
Shit

>hates Holderlin
KEK

is this profound ignorance or profound contrarianism
Ludwig van Beethoven

In my experience with boards like Veeky Forums, the less a good author, movie, book, etc. is mentioned the better because then threads about those subjects will only attract people genuinely interested and who want to contribute. You don't want your favourite author to become a meme.

Just another B.

Baiting. And not even good bait.

>>Bach
>Hungarian
>>Beethoven
>Spanish
>>Brahms
>Shit

Dumbest shit I read in days. This doesn't even warrant a refutation.

>getting baited

I'll probably get at least half of those when I rebuild my library from the ashes, as well as a self-printed vanilla bilingual edition.

I've looked around for critical essays better than the mixed bag from Norton. As tends to be the case, I'll likely end up concrescing dispersed criticism. That there isn't an standard authoritative collection of criticism is an itch I need to scratch.

Beautiful

>The Faust story was done better by Marlowe
"No"

Goethe vs Wolfe...
Are these the same posters that refer to Harold Bloom as an authority? Cause that wouldn't make any sense at all.

Why is no in quotation marks? Is this some sort of ironic disagreement?

Weil niemand hier Deutsch gut genug kann um Goethe und seine Sprachkunst wirklich zu schätzen. Sein Wortwitz geht in der Übersetzung einfach verloren. Es ist als ob du Shakespeare übersetzen würdest.

does bloom say anything about wolfe?

>there are people who think like this

NDT

A certain Wolf was sexually encroached by him, and Bloom does talk about Tom Wolfe, but so far, nothing on Gene Wolfe.

In his version of the canon, Bloom does include the work that his fanfic is modeled on, as well as sophisticated speculative fiction from the Pole and the fairy watcher, but Wolfe's merits are parallel to those authors, so even if Wolfe isn't in the canon, he has the essential distinctions to be in the canon.

wolf is full of shit and essentially backtracked on her allegation, admitting it was more or less a play for news and media fame

Need sauce on that

I can believe that she's full of shit but still

I've always heard TMaM and Under the Volcano are faust retellings and they're among my favorite novels. I've never even read Goethe's, but it makes me excited to read both his and The Recognitions.

oh shit i have under the volcano too though i haven't read it, forgot to put it in the pic

>Why isn't Goethe mentioned here more often, or read by the public at large?
Because people on this board do not read, let alone read Goethe. What were you expecting with this question?

Goethe is mentioned 25 times daily with ease.

And how much of that discussion on Goethe is either correct, unbiased, or productive?

I don't know or care. That wasn't what you were whining about. Both you and the OP need to open your eyes a bit.

Faust = The Book of Job

Anybody else notice this?

You're missing an important one.,

>whining

Why talk about him when everyone here has read Faust already?

Everyone's read it, right?

fucking idiot

user, you may want to sit down for this, but I've something I must tell you about Veeky Forums....

That's a stretch.

ahhh to be young and naive again...

It's not even close. Kinda like saying Lazy Town is Faustian, no connection.

well, there's a slight connection, the deal that satan has with god for an easy one.

t. reclam verlag master race

If you were paying the slightest attention, Goethe and Faust combined, are, on average, mentioned barely once per day.

He's actually missing at least 4 more, friend. Though their connections are more tenuous than Gaddis'.

I didn't mention it before because I've talked to him before, and he actually knows two things or three about literature. So he's probably aware of it, and anyhow his collection is more than good enough.

N-God mentions him all of the time and we mention N-God therefore Goethe is mentioned frequently.

I sometimes post the Conversations with Eckermann: you can really see there why Goethe was such a towering man of his time, it's absolutely great. Highly recommended even though you'd need a bit of an idea of Goethe's life and contemporaries to understand what he's talking about (i.e., read a biography first - I liked Safranski's)

i just wish he would have stopped memeing his retarded color theory all the time

This desu

Eh, Goethe himself wrote about how great the Shakespeare translations into German are, and was often happy with the translations of his works by others:

>Die erwähnte Übersetzung von Gérard, obgleich größtenteils in Prosa, lobte Goethe als sehr gelungen. »Im Deutschen«, sagte er, »mag ich den ›Faust‹ nicht mehr lesen; aber in dieser französischen Übersetzung wirkt alles wieder durchaus frisch, neu und geistreich.

From aforementioned Conversations with Eckermann

This definitely not d e s u!

It's like saying Voltaire's wit is lost in translation, yet Voltaire is as uproariously hilarious in English as Swift. Goethe is no exception.

>the Gérad translation, although largely in prose
>prose

get the fuck outta here lmfao

If your empty meme-posting would disappear this board would improve

I've seen your post a thousand times now, it's really neither interesting nor funny

>Habe nun, ach! Philosophie,
>Juristerei und Medizin,
>Und leider auch Theologie!
>Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn.
>Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
>und bin so klug als wie zuvor;

>Ah! Now I’ve done Philosophy,
>I’ve finished Law and Medicine,
>And sadly even Theology:
>Taken fierce pains, from end to end.
>Now here I am, a fool for sure!

Neger, bitte.

And he said himself the translations made it something else. He perhaps enjoyed it. But it's still different.

Can't comment on Voltaire because my French ain't good enough to say if nuanced things got lost in translation.
But with Goethe they certainly do.

PS:
Forgot:
>No wiser than I was before:

It's neither Goethe's nor the translator's fault that you can't read English

I'm native in both languages.

>And he said himself the translations made it something else. He perhaps enjoyed it. But it's still different.

Fine enough friend, I'm by no means an expert on any sort of literature, but can you explain the specifics of what nuance is lost? I encounter complaints about Lovecraft's prose too often here, and it never gets past the superficial (I've checked the archives). Almost nobody on Veeky Forums who's opened their non-literal mouths about Lovecraft's prose knows what they're talking about.

For one of Voltaire's famous quips, stupidités -> stupidities, and this runs parallel to humanités -> humanities, so the essence of the pun is retained. Some of Voltaire's longer winded rants were emended into pithy comments in their English renditions, so in some cases, Voltaire is actually improved in English.

10 minutes later, no answer from that translation-dismissing user. As usual on Veeky Forums: empty posturing

I'm the OP. Give them time. Sometimes I post at the rate of one per hour, because I'm running errands. I was almost impeded from that gloss of the upside of Voltaire in translation.

But yes, as is usual, they could very well be a posturing pseud.

For instance in the example I've posted, the flow is obviously different.
"Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn," implies passionate study, while "Taken fierce pains, from end to end," makes it sound like he forced himself through it, looking for something specific.
"Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
und bin so klug als wie zuvor;"
That line flows so fucking well, it's remembered by every German who ever picked up the book. It's clever.
In the German version it is more lamenting, straight up calling himself "a poor fool". In the following line means "he is as smart/knowledgable as he was before", rather than "not having gained wisdom".

Generally in ther Geman version it gives more the impression of a true scholar, who laments in reflection on how pointless it all was. How he gained nothing.
In the English version, it gives the impression of a man who (almost reluctantly) studied all the topics in pursuit of true wisdom and failed each step of the way.
Again, nuances. But I feel it paints a very different picture of the character.
Perhaps that is interesting in its own right. But to me at least both versions have very different feels to them.

PS:
I should probably also point out that most of the appreciation for Goethe stems from him being among the few who managed to execute a very organic rhythm with the German language without making it flowery or simplifying the language used. (So perhaps a comparison to Wilde would be more accurate.)
And that is obviously something you can't just translate into another language. I find the meta-awareness of just how clever some lines are, is half the fun of reading Goethe.

That's a nice interpretation - although you're missing that the "Ach!" implies regret, which some of the translators have picked up (somewhere in this thread it went from "translations are bad" to "translations are different", which I agree with, then again who wouldn't), however the English version you posted is weird - it seems to be from an A S Kline, who seems to run an online free web version of... his own translations?

As a comparison of what English translation can also do, here's a different translation from 1856: (gutenberg.org/cache/epub/14460/pg14460-images.html)

>Faust. Have now, alas! quite studied through
>Philosophy and Medicine,
>And Law, and ah! Theology, too,
>With hot desire the truth to win!
>And here, at last, I stand, poor fool!
>As wise as when I entered school;

No forced labor, but "passionate study".

Here's a more recent version from David Luke, 1987:

>Well, that’s Philosophy I’ve read,
>And Law and Medicine, and I fear
>Theology too, from A to Z;
>Hard studies all, that have cost me dear.
>And so I sit, poor silly man,
>No wiser now than when I began.

"Poor silly man" is even more lamenting than "armer Tor"

Another recent one, Stuart Atkins:

>FAUST. I’ve studied now, to my regret,
>Philosophy, Law, Medicine,
>and—what is worst—Theology
>from end to end with diligence.
>Yet here I am, a wretched fool
>and still no wiser than before.

Forced labor, more regret

Another old one, Bayard Taylor, 1908:

>FAUST
>I’ve studied now Philosophy
>And Jurisprudence, Medicine —
>And even, alas! Theology —
>From end to end, with labor keen;
>And here, poor fool! with all my lore
>I stand, no wiser than before:

A bit of regret, but a labor of love
(ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/g/goethe/faust/complete.html)

These are the only four English versions I could readily find - yours isn't a particularly good translation IMHO

Philip Wayne

>Philosophy have I digested
>The whole of Law and Medicine
>From each its secrets I have wrested
>Theology, alas, thrown in
>Poor fool, with all this sweated lore,
I stand no wiser than I was before.

>although you're missing that the "Ach!" implies regret,
Actually "Ach!" is related more to annoyance. It can also be used dismissively. But not really "regret", exactly.
I think "Ah!" is fine as a translation, depending in how you read it.

>somewhere in this thread it went from "translations are bad" to "translations are different"
I never said that. I took the position that the reason Veeky Forums has less appreciation for Goethe than his fame (in Germany) would imply about his quality, is mostly based on the fact the specific prose and poetry are what made him an important German author in the first place and that just doesn't translate.

And I'm sure you know yourself that each example you posted all have their short comings.
i.e.:
>and ah! Theology, too,
Misses the underhand stab at theology.
>and I fear Theology too, from A to Z;
That's just odd. But at least it has the stab.
>and—what is worst—Theology
Too strong and the joke is lost.
>And even, alas! Theology
Probably the closest, but misses the negative connotation.
>Theology, alas, thrown in
Entirely different.

As for your examples:
>With hot desire the truth to win!
Too up-beat. Doesn't encompass the social aspect of scholarly study being anything but expected. Also sounds like he once was super hyped about it all and was crushed by it all. Something not really in the original.
>And so I sit, poor silly man,
Definitely closer. Pretty good, actually.
>from end to end with diligence.
Meh. Again, closer. The "durchaus" has more of a justifying tone.
>From end to end, with labor keen;
Same here, but "with labor keen" nails it.

I could go into the other lines but I can't be bothered. Again, this isn't about the translated versions being bad or anything. Just that a imho significant thing that made Goethe Goethe is lost. And at times meaning are changed entirely, especially of the implicit nature.

Thanks for the translations fellas, I was going to copypasta Luke as a base text.

David Luke's (henceforth DL; if I used Luke, I'd keep imagining Skywalker huddled over a translation desk) version has a pleasant rhythm, and is equivalently salient in English as per your criteria, in addition to occasionally being more heartfelt. As for line 357, the translation is distinct, but not unachievable in English. That goes for your criticisms for the other translations as well. A translator could very well do a parallel translation for emotional effects in English, but the languages house different emotive adaptations to the world, so the disparate effects are in alignment with their respective languages, and anyhow the major meaning is kept. At any rate, the emotions invoked in the English translation of line 357 have more similitude with Faust's early melancholy. DL's English translation works in a different direction, but retains the original's essential magnitude and eminence.

Goethe adapted the Faust myth from local legends, and his psyche influenced the character's traits, and vice versa. DL also shapes the work, and interact with the root as well; Goethe is not the exclusive mouth of Faust, and the legend is always changing shape. Moreover, while the Faust drama is a complete work, Goethe, towards the end of his life, was still mentally revising Faust, especially part 2. And if it's worth noting, Goethe retained misprints in Faust that he found aesthetically pleasing, in subsequent editions.

Regarding emotions invoked, if Faust were too stoically objective about his situation, his portrayal of Goethe's psyche would not be as relatable, rendering his characterization stale. The German does sound more authoritative and is could be regarded as a facet of difficult German philosophy, but the English is more impassioned and makes Faust sound more human, preserving his personality without reducing him to trite whining. And this emendation is more relevant to modern readers, apropos to the current infallible pseudocracy, which Hegel can be guilted much for. If posturers try to hand wave their skill as effortless, then this inversion of the habit is better attuned to silly humans coping with the burden of infinite knowledge.

Continued:

Concerning aspects of the German language, I do feel that German is a beautiful language, but English's sounds are more normalized on the global scale, and everything else being equal, the average person will be less frightened listening to English's sounds than German's relatively cacophonous sounds. Organic and skillful as Goethe's German may have been, German, and its styles, is just one language of many to exhibit the Faust legend, so the point is Christopher Poole. Furthermore, modern research sustained in English, alloyed with pseudo intellectualism, as it unavoidably is, currently gives English a more authoritative standing for the Faustian struggle of infinite knowledge. The original context in south Germany had already been mythologized in the local language, Goethe compounding the trend, so English versions are just further entries, and English is by no means less civilized than German.

Instead of placing German's merits on a pedestal, we should at least partially unveil what taste entails. Indeed, works of art mean different things to different people. People are hardly objective, and no two people are exactly identical, nor do works of art evoke identical responses for any two people. So taste is arbitrary, and no argument about taste is soluble, especially not in terms of the nebulous realm of language. So while Faust is originally in German, the English language, having more speakers, particularly fine scholars of repute, furthermore does more to preserve man's repository of knowledge. And hence reading Faust, in English, in modern times, has more continuity with Faust's theme of epistemological struggle, German being first to perform in this aspect, and not necessarily inferior.

>I could go into the other lines but I can't be bothered.
Fine by me, you've done a lot more work than I'm used to on Veeky Forums, since at least the beginning of this year. Great stuff t b h. You have much insight to offer, and I would be pleased to hear more from you.

Your English is absolutely awful. Convoluted and bordering on incoherent. What's your native language?

maybe you're just retarded and can't read. his english is perfectly fine.

Thank you friend, I will take your critique to heart.

Seems like too complex for Veeky Forums. In particular i have no idea why Faust got salvation despite being naive, pretentious asshole. Probably because of Goethe's humanism "he is only a human but he sthrive for better" but its not very convincing for me - too different from unforgiving abrahamic religions morality

faust didn't get saved just because of "human striving," he got saved because ultimately, he's at some level a stand-in for german/human culture. part 2 is not about faust's triumphs and follies as an individual but about what goethe veiwed as the irreversible course of human history. he's not saved as an individual, but rather, the worldview espoused by goethe leaves no choice but for him to be saved.

and besides, goethe wasn't really a christian and his appropriation of christian allegory should not be viewed as his statement on christian morality. it was just a way for him to frame his story.

best translation?

Not him, but Luke imo has the best rhythm, emotional evocation, sophistication, and word choice.

bloom likes atkins. huge emphasis on rhythm and meter (an underappreciated aspect of the original from what i gather).

norton comes with the best supplemental materials. arndt's is super stilted though, and even the editor who wrote the commentary/accompanying notes often provides alternate translations of passages to make a point.

luke is sophisticated and very well-received, though i think some of his modernization are a bit awkward. could be personal preference. it's showing signs of being the new "standard" translation for sure.

greenberg (not pictured) is super colloquial and casual. kinda fun to read but i think it misses some nuance at times.

Just a few notes, since I should actually be studying right now:
>The German does sound more authoritative and is could be regarded as a facet of difficult German philosophy, but the English is more impassioned and makes Faust sound more human, preserving his personality without reducing him to trite whining.
Again, kind of my point. In the German version you are mostly supposed to relate to Faust on an intellectual level (or rather the Weltschmerz of it all) but otherwise not so much. His infatuation with Margarete, subsequent deal with Mephisto and the immoral relationship he had with her aren't supposed to evoke compassion in the reader, but rather aversion to his character as a man.
Obviously this is an over-simplification, but at least that it the impression most people will get on their first read of the German version. It is a tragedy and Faustus deserves what he gets.

>and English is by no means less civilized than German.
Again, not the position I took.
But I'd argue to the rest of it, that the impression of a "rough language" would vanish for anyone who actually spoke the language well enough to understand Goethe.
Much like some people might call Arabic "agressive and rough", but Arabic poetry being considered among the most sensitive around.

That being put aside, it seems to me as though you are seriously arguing to impose English as a standardized language among literary scholars. Which, and excuse my French, is dumb as fuck. It's akin to arguing that it would be valid to just repaint all classical pictures with kinda-sorta the same colors and materials and say it would be perfectly valid to study those instead of the original.

A translation, however slight the differences may be, are different books. And while there would still be much you could study about it across languages (general themes, symbolism, historical context, etc.), you are either fully ignoring the linguistic aspect of it all, or you aren't studying "Faust. Eine Tragödie by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe" but "Doctor Faustus, the David Luke Edition" or "the Stuart Atkins Edition" or whatever.

To expand that idea ad absurdum, we might as well have German lit courses entirely in English. (Dear god, I hope that doesn't actually happen anywhere in the world.)
To understand German literature fully, you have to understand German. To understand English literature fully, you have to understand English. And so forth.

Again, being native in both languages, this seems especially absurd to me.

I don't think that English should swallow every other language, merely that the translated works can be regarded as parallel to the original. I don't think that everyone else has to hold the same opinion, and that's fine by me.

>merely that the translated works can be regarded as parallel to the original
Okay, then I just misunderstood.

>He thinks Faust is better than Manfred.

is /faustistic/ a thing? Rode part 1+2 like 50 times+ in total. Would send a pic of my collection but I'm at my gf atm.

read*

sounds patrician desu

It's "faustisch" in German and I'm pretty sure it's "faustian" in English.

u wot m8

Posted about here before, but I read Faust Part 1 and the work felt...slapdash. I think it was a bad translation in part, but still. The plot of Faust is an awkward fusion of two different themes written decades apart and it really shows.

Funny, because I read the Luke translation and thought it was terrible. The man simply does not know how to write a couplet.

Kaufman or Atkins?

kaufmann is incomplete so you don't really have a choice

i like him though but some lines are awkward. a common criticism is his excessive focus on rhyme, but i like his general cadence