/sffg/ - Science Fiction and Fantasy General

I'm a huge Moorcock fan, but I don't understand him, he declared himself an anarchist when it was incredibly popular to do so but never advanced his political character, he seems obsessed with belittling Tolkien because of his mild conservatism and claims his Elric novels advocate left-anarchism...

But they don't, If I hadn't of read his essays I would have thought the guy a social darwinist.

Is the guy just projecting his neo-fascism onto other authors?

I must kek.
I told these faggets that red knight was bad. Just because they disliked my chart they thought I had bad tastes. They vowed to drop their current books the next dayand pursue the red knight... two of them dropped red knight already.

I'm awaiting my apologies from you fucking dinosaurs.
On that note finish the red knight the part with the dragon was more interesting than the entire book
2/10 would not read again or recommend.

I mean, I didn't bother with Red Knight, and I still don't like roughly a third of your chart, so...

Somebody hasn't heard of those rightwing neckbeards who call themselves neoreactionaries.

Moorcock claimed he met both Tolkien and Lewis in his teens and liked them both as people. He just personally found Tolkien's writing boring and resented that people were obsessed with rehashing it over and over again. He also included Lord of the Rings in "Fantasy: The 100 Best Books," which he co-wrote, and he didn't shit on it there.

As for his anarchism, I believe that Elric, given how it ends, may be a critique of power to some extent. Consider that Elric's power, even if he ultimately believed he was using it for good, caused him to do horribly evil things and destroyed his soul (figuratively and then literally).

>While it is reactionary in the love it shows to knights being good knights

It's also reactionary in the love it shows to traditionalist sports like falconry, duelling and equestrianism.

That's what I mean. I started reading fantasy recently, picked up GRRM and Sanderson just to have a modern reference point, but then read Tolkien and Le Guin and liked them a lot better for their sparseness and similarity to folk tales and myths. I was just wondering if anyone else still wrote in that style, rather than as a modernist.

LeGuin is an anarchist, though. Pretty sure she'd object to being called reactionary. Though if you want work more based in myth and fairytale, you could have just said that without using terms that people generally interpret as political.

The "flowchart" image under Fantasy in the OP has two things that are listed as fairytale:
>Wicked, by Gregory Maguire
>Daughter of the Forest, by Juliet Marillier

It also has several entries for "classic fantasy" including A Wizard of Earthsea and these:
>The Tower of the Elephant, by Robert E. Howard
>Lud-in-the-Mist, by Hope Mirlees

What are your opinions about invented species or original magic system like Sanderson's?

they're fun

inb4 dinosaurs start talking about how magic should be "numinous" and "wild"

Both of those things are fine in principle, though /sffg/ doesn't tend to think Sanderson does it very well.

That's how you're supposed to do it. Sanderson has a lot of problems as an author but he always paints a novel picture in terms of setting, so even a mediocre story from him can be interesting. There's no excuse for using elves and dwarves and Medieval England pastiches these days except laziness.

I see. I don't really care about the author's politics as much as the writing style. As a protagonist Ged seems believable as a mythical figure, for example, whose skeleton of a psychological profile isn't fleshed out by moment-to-moment television-like reports of his activities and introspections. The latter I associate with modernism in literature generally, which feels bloated and self-indulgent to my tastes. In that sense, especially after reading GRRM and Sanderson, Le Guin's writing style struck me as very conservative and 'old-fashioned,' which I like because I like to read myths.

So that's what I meant. Anyways, thanks.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. You can create your own magic system, explain it in broad strokes but leave it largely mysterious. And I don't understand what that opinion has to do with old vs. new books, at least not inherently.

I like Sanderson's superpower systems, but unless you're dealing with secrets man was not meant to know/summoning demons or fairies as servants/making an offering of some strange substance to some powerful being, or something of that nature, it's not really magic, is it? I mean, where are the dribbly candles on skulls in the Steel Inquisitors' chambers, where are the ancient grimoires to be laboriously perused in Stormlight Archives' palindrome cities?

It's a shame, too, doing magic through spren could have been an awe-inspiring process. But if you can systematize your magic and build airships, all you've done is discover another natural law.

Do me a favor? Read Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser and let me know what you think? It does a great job of making you care for characters without feeding you their thoughts in real-time.

As says, just because the author has a system for the magic doesn't mean it has to be treated scientifically in-story. You can make your magic a natural law but present it as something mysterious and barely understood by the protagonists.

Even Sanderson has said there's a place for magic that's mysterious and poorly understood; he just thinks it's unwise to use magic the audience doesn't understand as a problem-solver because then it's deus ex machina.

Thanks. I have invented species in whatever I'm writing. From what I'm getting, the more mysterious the power is, the better. I had to show the limitations of what I had invented at the start, though, and I dunno if it breaks the consensus ... I just hope it doesn't turn cringey when a beta/alpha reader reads it.

They grow boring incredibly quick.

It's like reading the Martian, masturbation material for nerds, instead of "I'm going to science this shit up!" it becomes "I'm going to have to use my superior intelligence and wit to out-logic this jock!".

Whatever you think of Sanderson, I think he's right here:

brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/

>Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.

So basically, don't have the heroes get out of trouble using magic if it's all mysterious and the audience doesn't understand it. Because then you're just hand-waving and "then everything got better, the end." It's fine to have mysterious powers, but they can't be the solution to your characters' problems.

At the opposite end, you can explain your magic so that it's a clear part of the plot where all parties, including the heroes, can use it in ways that advance their goals.

And there's a range in between, but just remember that the less you explain your magic's capabilities, the less your characters should be able to conveniently use it to get out of trouble.

Not necessarily. Prophecy as a plot device is a form of magic. No one might understand how it works, only that it does, but the reader expects the fulfillment will match the words of the prophecy but not the expectations of the characters.

Invented life is great, I don't see what it has to do with invented physics.

>Not necessarily. Prophecy as a plot device is a form of magic. No one might understand how it works, only that it does, but the reader expects the fulfillment will match the words of the prophecy but not the expectations of the characters.
Sure, that's true. Generally, though, the prophecy predicts something that will happen; other events actually CAUSE it to happen, and those are mostly understood.

Mysterious is generally better for magic, but there's a place for Sanderson's systemic style too. I think you should always know what your magic can do even if the characters don't. My own story uses magic based around probability, but to the viewpoint character, a layman, it's just "holy shit did she just shoot someone from halfway across the planet" until the story needs someone to explain any of it to him.

Basically, depict magic and world-building however you want, but remember . As one book I read put it, when you're an author your job is harder than god's. God can get away with shit happening for no reason - you can't. Don't cheat your audience.

What are some of the best sci-fi book series that make use to some extent of psychic/psionic powers?

I can see that. Still, there's a place in storytelling for a terror of the unknown. I see in Sanderson an author who has grown up in a world where everything that is not known can one day be known. There actually isn't a lot of cosmic horror in Mormonism, the idea is that we're being shepherded by a loving God and we can only fail if we really want to. Not saying there's no potential for cosmic horror, Joseph Smith once told church leaders " If I were to rell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me." That's a good story hook.

That said, he seems to have a place for the numinous in Way of Kings with that strange god that grants twisted wishes and stole the guy's memory of his wife. I hope he leaves a lot of mystery in, and doesn't wrap it all up tidily in the Cosmere.

City of Illusion, by Le Guin. She hated it because it had a clear antagonist, but it's my absolute favorite of her books. The idea is that humans in the future gain telepathic ability, but that you can't lie with telepathy. Until a group of humanoid aliens show up that can, and very quickly crash the entire League of All Worlds. The story's about a golden-eyed man crossing a post-apocalypse US trying to learn the truth about himself. Very cool Taoist philosophy all through, I'd say it's a more effective declaration of faith than Dispossessed.

>Still, there's a place in storytelling for a terror of the unknown.
I agree entirely, and actually tend to prefer what Sanderson calls "soft" magic, where it's barely explained at all. I just agree with him that, in that case, it shouldn't be used as a handy problem-solver.

That's fine, i don't like some of your books either. Just remember that we can't all like the same things. Stop shiting on my list, I'll take you out to dinner and we can be friends.

If I say something is shit, don't gleefully jump on it to "show up" the chart user, because you just might get burned.

Sure! I'll pick up one of the stories. It might take me a while but I'll try to hang around these threads.

Publication order of stories is probably better than in-universe chronological order for your first time reading them. I started in chronological order, but reading Fafhrd's back story without already knowing and caring about the character was a struggle.

Not the shill, and no you didn't miss anything.

>tfw no human girl offering all her holes in exchange for your soul
Why live? Just fuck my shit up.

>he doesn't read in publication order
How noob are you?

Do you cook a chicken and call it an omelette?

>Do you cook a chicken and call it an omelette?
Depends on if it was still in an egg, and if so, how I prepared it.

REMOVE DUNYAIN

What happened to the thread?

REMOVE SRANC remove sranc.
you are worst tekne. you are the sranc abomination you are the sranc smell. return to agongorea. to our kyranean cousins you may come our false men mansion. you may live in the mediel screw….ahahahaha ,golgoterath we will never forgeve you. rascal FUck but fuck asshole sranc stink bashrag sqhipere shqipare..sranc genocide best day of my life. take a bath of dead sranc..ahahahahahINCHOROI WE WILL GET YOU!! do not forget apocalypse .cil-aujas we kill the king , nonmen return to your precious mansions….hahahahaha idiot sranc and nonmen smell so bad..wow i can smell it. REMOVE SRANC FROM THE PREMISES. you will get caught. Kunuiri+Aorsi+Eamnor+Meori+Kyraneas=kill consult…you will ordeal, seswatha alive in meori, seswatha making mandate of meori.. . fast gnosis seswatha meori. we are in mansion and have nimil now hahahaha ha because of gin'yursis… you are evil stink sranc… you live in a arc hahahaha, you live in a horn

seswatha alive numbr one #1 in meori….fuck the kuniuri ,..FUCKk ashol srancs no good i spit in the mouth eye of ur arc and no-god. seswatha aliv and real strong wizard kill all the sranc farm aminal with gnosis magic now we the meori rule . leader of the mangaecca shauriatus fukc the inchoroi and lay egg this egg hatch and no-god wa;s born. stupid baby form the eggn give bak our clay we will crush u lik a skull of sranc. meori greattst nation

Sometimes it just goes quiet. Maybe people are actually reading. There's no need to post useless shit like "what happened to the thread" if there's nothing to say.

We need more of these desu. Anybody with skills wanna make a Conan one? Something like:
"Barbarism Ain't free. The fields of Aquiolonia gotta be litterd with the blood of soft civilized men. Set aka "THE CHAOS SERPENT" is not my god.he is an evil demon and probably eats virgins as well :DD. SWORDS and savagery not snakes and WIZARDRY ok. by crom

Here's a Severian one.

I liked this one a lot better.

Anything similar in setting/style to Dishonored? I hear it's got a couple prequel books coming out due to the second game but we all know how good video game novels are.

I haven't read them but I know China Mieville's Bas-Lag books are set in a pseudo-Victorian secondary world.

The malazan book is trying to brainwash me into believing the ideology implanted in the words

Which ideology might that be?

SJW-leftist-liberal-culturalmarxist-BBCist-cuckism

I don't know yet but I will find out

Not nationalistic-patriotic-racist-militarism?

So tell us then, what do you think the world ought to be like?

This was response to

My fucking sides

Whichever ideology guarantees me a multicultural harem and psychedelic drugs on the reg.

>an incensed reader wrote to say, 'Dear Comrade, we don't want to hear about these bourgeois writers like Shakespeare. Can't you give us something a bit more proletarian?' etc., etc. The editor's reply was simple. 'If you will turn to the index of Marx's Capital,' he wrote, 'you will find that Shakespeare is mentioned several times.' And please notice that this was enough to silence the objector. Once Shakespeare had received the benediction of Marx, he became respectable.

Gene Wolfe and Chesterton all around.

Your taste is complete garbage.
Your reasons for disliking Red Knight are supremely dumb.
It's a bad book, but you can't tell gold from coal.

Wow, Rand just got kidnapped in broad daylight, in the middle of his own palace filled to the brim with guards.

He might just be the most retarded protagonist in all of fantasy.

>NO GOOD WITCHES, I DON'T WANT YOUR HELP. HERE LET ME TELEPORT TO WHERE THE EVIL WITCHES ARE, THEY WOULD NEVER BAMBOOZLE AND CAPTURE ME!

Don't bully the mentally ill

Why do people put themselves through it, just read the wiki.

that's kinda the point, it's not the like the narrative is trying to say what he did was smart

I'm so fucking sick of reading about the "swarthy hordes" and "dark-skinned monsters." Seriously why can't white people just leave us alone.

Please recommend me some black fantasy books with a black perspective preferably written by a non-white (black preferred)

No. Submit to the supreme white cock or fuck off, scum.

You can try Delany, I guess.

Try N.K."Ess Jay double you"Jemisin

That's it?

There's not a lot of "good" sff to begin with.

Let alone good black fantasy by a black that reaffirms my political views

>Seriously why can't white people just leave us alone.

Why couldn't the Ottomans or Mongols leave us alone? Who knows.

Black people are provably more evil anyway, statistically speaking. There's a reason the Irish and the Japanese used to be Black.

I need my Lovecraft fix, running out of Laird Barron books.

>stop liking what I don't like

Dark skin includes Indians, Arabs, Blacks and just about everything else that isn't European. Dark is also seen as bad since forever, as light is day and dark is night, the symbolism stuck since the Egyptian myth.
There are also barbarians often as dark skinned hordes, don't see why I'd get triggered by that.

B L A C K
L I V E S
M A T T E R

Right, so I've relatively recently got back into reading fiction. Read loads of YA tripe when I was a wee kiddy and obviously read LotR when I got a bit older.
My most recent series has been the Mistborn trilogy which makes even a newbie like me cringe sometimes at bad lines and inconsistent language. Nevertheless it's been a fun return.
Lurked here for a while and so I've bought Dune, some Gene Wolfe and the apparently better Sanderson series Way of Kings.
Can I get some recommendations for actual, grown-up fantasy? Maybe something about a traveller in a cynical fantasy world (i.e. not an epic with the world at stake - something more grounded). I also don't particularly like the idea of magic being the boring, played out, fire and wizards and shit that it is in every other fantasy world. Mistborn seems to do that well if little else.
While I'm at it, some space naval warfare would be cool too.

The list quoted is more or less the definitive fantasy tier list, with Swanwick missing from the high tier.

>Can I get some recommendations for actual, grown-up fantasy?
Gormenghast

>Erikson middle tier

Malazan is the greatest fantasy series ever written

Sup shill

If you are retarded and can't tell quality from wow so epic and deep, yes.
I'm not even the shill, I started it 2 days ago and it's brilliantly bizzare, well written, with genuine characters.

>While I'm at it, some space naval warfare would be cool too.
Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet series did that fairly well I thought, but it got a bit repetitive after a few books.

I agree that he shouldn't be middle tier. Maybe stuck in a weird undecidable area between middle and high-tier instead. While I love Erikson, I have to be reasonable (and so should you); Malazan isn't the greatest ever written. It trumps many, but let's be honest, and admit that Eriskon's prose is stilted and try-hard. His also seems to be unable to exploit his character's potential to come to life. They seem flat, but that's purely because of his style. Which lacks, sometimes.

But fuck me, I wish someone could attempt to adapt him. Too bad the project is to massive to attempt.

Tolkien is reconized not because he was the 1st but blecause he was the 1st to deliver an action-packed well-written fantasy series.

ok

Few more to add to my list. Thanks.

But with Moorcock, how I approach his works? Seems like Elric is the more famous of them but I have no idea in what order to read them. Publishing order? Internal chronology? Skip the novellas? Focus on one series?

Charles R. Saunders is a pretty good black colored African American independent black writer of color.

>I managed very little sleep that night, and Losi came closer to killing me than Felurian ever had. She was a delightful partner, every bit as wonderful as Felurian had been.

>But how could that be? I hear you ask. How could any mortal woman compare with Felurian?

>It is easier to understand if you think of it in terms of music. Sometimes a man enjoys a symphony. Elsetimes he finds a jig more suited to his taste. The same holds true for lovemaking. One type is suited to the deep cushions of a twilight forest glade. Another comes quite naturally tangled in the sheets of narrow beds upstairs in inns. Each woman is like an instrument, waiting to be learned, loved, and finely played, to have at last her own true music made.

>Some might take offense at this way of seeing things, not understanding how a trouper views his music. They might think I degrade women. They might consider me callous, or boorish, or crude.

>But those people do not understand love, or music, or me.

I highly recommend the Red Rising trilogy by Pierce brown.
It's a modern sci-fi series about a non interstellar but scientifically advanced human civilization with heavily roman renaissance type culture base on a strictly hierarchial social structure.
Pic related, fan art.

I remember reading this when I was 16 and thinking it was great writing.

I refuse to believe the person who wrote that isn't a virgin

I don't recommend anybody read this. The cringiest prose I have seen in a book in a long while.

So what the hell are Warrens in Malazan? Can anyone make them?
>Small private warren in a sack

Just the prose?

His wife probably has a boyfriend, if you know what I mean.