STEM BTFO

slate.com/articles/business/the_bills/2016/09/why_wells_fargo_and_thirsty_politicians_love_picking_on_the_liberal_arts.html

>Wells Fargo’s misbegotten ad campaign was merely the latest salvo in the ongoing disparagement of the arts and humanities as academic concentrations and career destinations, a refrain that is almost always paired with cheers for ostensibly more lucrative fields. It’s a theme that seems to have grown louder in recent years as an increasing number of students attempt to deal with growing amounts of education-related debt. And it reflects a particular American tendency: to place the blame for massive social problems on the individual.

>The critique has cropped up in this year’s presidential election, too. Rubio was ridiculed for claiming welders earn more than philosophers during one debate (they don’t) and adding, “We need more welders and less philosophers.” And Donald Trump said he’d like the government to exit the student loan business entirely—leaving the mess to the banks, whom, his campaign says, should link the availability of student loans to one’s major. This is a variation on another idea, one promoted by Scott and former Texas Gov. Rick Perry: Public universities should charge students studying STEM subjects less than those pursuing a degree in the humanities or the arts.

>And complaining about all those liberal arts majors distracts from the main problem. The issue isn’t what people are studying in college; it’s that the workforce remains so unstable while, at the same time, students need to borrow so much to study anything at all. In the 1990s, about half of students needed loans to complete a four-year degree. Now, almost three-quarters take on at least one student loan to finish their course of study.


well she convinced me. free college for rich kids when?

Other urls found in this thread:

businessinsider.com/the-real-truth-about-the-stem-shortage-that-americans-dont-want-to-hear-2013-5
politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/11/marco-rubio/marco-rubio-welders-more-money-philosophers/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

>We need more welders and less philosophers
My cousin did math at Harvard and then a Ph.D. at Cal. Now he's a welder, no joke. If people want to weld they'll weld. I say make college affordable for all and let people have jobs they enjoy.

>And it reflects a particular American tendency: to place the blame for massive social problems on the individual.
Well yeah the problem always was the existence of liberal arts faculties that swindle money from individuals in return for worthless degrees. But colleges are a business and since the costs of running liberal arts is cheap compared to STEM they will milk the fuck out of it and maybe put a bit out on the side to pay some journo hack to minimize their culpability in it.

wow that's interesting. did he just realize he loves welding or what?

On this note I remember whenever I took a liberal arts course they spent more time justifying their existence and advertising themselves than teaching anything useful. A liberal arts prof is an over glorified salesman.

>colleges are a business
no they're not cletus. not everyone went to itt tech or Devry like you.

and the only reason tuition is so sky high is so schools can build massive stadiums, pay the div I football coach $500k a year, and give literally hundreds of of scholarships to detrayius and shitavious so they can chase a fucking ball...all because the federal guarantees student loans given out by private banks.

I will never understand why the average ameriblubber isn't rioting in the streets when they see how and why they are going $200k into debt for a basic university education.

Good luck and may you survive the chimpouts when the bubble inevitably bursts.

OK I WANT EVERYBODY TO GATHER AROUND FOR SOME REAL TALK ABOUT UNIVERSITY AND JOBS
because i too was under the impression that ditch diggers are low class.

If you were told that you aren't guaranteed a job after graduating university or not really working in the field you studied for would you still apply? That question makes or breaks your motivation to go. But teachers will never tell you that and schools will continue to test for college.

My humanities professor said that universities are to make people worldly along with specialization in what they sought out for.

The information age enables the same education at a Harvard level for free or a fee sans lab practices and networking, Universities are no longer the gatekeepers of education but still remain a holder for science equipment and hands on approach. very much like a company that holds patents to certain or groundbreaking material to stay above competition.
If medical school became as available as it was in the 1960s then you'd see some change.

point is, theres no excuse to vote for trump if he sold you on the illegal mexican problem.

>We need more welders and less philosophers
If we needed more of either, why is anyone unemployed?
There isn't enough legit work to keep everybody busy 2000 hours a year.
Work rationing when?

>$200k into debt for a basic university education.

this is a meme. the only people who go into debt like that are idiots who just have to have that (((((college experience))))) of going to an expensive private university for the entire 4 years.

if you are poor, FAFSA almost entirely pay for a full course load at any community college. thats your first two years for less than a 1k$ a year. if you go to your middle of the road state university and get in state tuition you will finish off your bachelors for less than 30k$ out of pocket. this is all assuming you can't keep above a 3.5 GPA and also can't be assed to fill out the dozens of applications needed to get scholarships.

thats the price of a nice car.

>point is, theres no excuse to vote for trump if he sold you on the illegal mexican problem.
Good thing I don't need an excuse to Make America Great Again!

lol i hear you desu

it's pretty funny to think that Keynes thought that increased automation would lead to a 4 hour work week by now. people seem to think of work as a virtue worth pursuing for its own sake. i suspect that with the impending advent or automation/offshoring people are more eager to "earn their keep" or demonstrate their value to their superiors.

nonsense.

we just need to lower the cost of living and have more welfare.

It's just a cover for the fact that STEM degree holders face stagnant and declining wages.

businessinsider.com/the-real-truth-about-the-stem-shortage-that-americans-dont-want-to-hear-2013-5

AI can do all of those things.

Why are banks not based in New York so shit?

I'm one of these unfortunate misbegotten """"""children""""""" who fell for the arts meme. (that's why i come to this bored) I say kill em all 1989

I mentioned a statement of similar effect on Veeky Forums earlier this year about the fact that there's not even enough good paying jobs to satisfy the top percentile even by IQ standards.

The fact is the global community was slowly being sold on a raw deal even before globalization and automation officially started to hit serious growth spurts. Now that it's being fully implemented everywhere it's becoming very apparent that the current economic systems in play can't cut it.

In a fully realized future where automation is ubiquitous no large state population can truly be employed 100% in a traditional sense.

We going to need more than just work rationing to fix it. Sadly is right that a widely implemented welfare state is going to have to be implemented.

Yes. He's a pipe fitter and does work at nuclear plants. He's an unpretentious New Englander who loves math and hands on work.

>unpretentious
I wish I could be like that. My mind is corrupted. Maybe in part because of sci.

I judge people (mentally) based on their studies and class stuff into tier lists. I hate that so much but I am not able to just stop thinking like that. FUCK

It would be for the best if "liberal" ""arts"" didn't exist at all.

>tuition is so sky high
Honestly it doesn't seem to be. If you don't go to for profit places, ivy league, private unis, or anything in Cali you'll be paying maybe about $30,000 for your Bach.

It's the fucking rejects who go to UCLA or NYU out of state that pay like $30,000/year because they want that dank Cali or NY experience that caused the $200k meme.

My dude here's got it

I never understood the number of people bitching on /pol/ or Veeky Forums about this. It's making me think it's blown out of proportion because I've heard experiences from like 7 different unis that friends go to and have been through 3 years of liberal arts courses and any justification is done day 1 and even STEM courses did it.

Then again I didn't be a massive cuck who took the 100 level courses designed for high schoolers so the turbo autists and the lazy can nab a free A.

>The issue isn’t what people are studying in college
Yeah, man. It doesn't matter at all to the economy whether young people spend four years preparing for an effective role in industry, or four years indulging in entertainment and political rallies.

>Rubio was ridiculed for claiming welders earn more than philosophers during one debate (they don’t)
Man, "(they don't)" is all he's got to say? That's an argument that needs to be made.

I went looking, and this is the kind of shit I came up with:
politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/11/marco-rubio/marco-rubio-welders-more-money-philosophers/
"According to Payscale, a company that collects salary information, philosophy majors make an average first-year salary of $42,200. The average mid-career pay for philosophy majors is even better: $85,000 per year."
"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median wage for welders, cutters, solderers and brazers is $37,420 -- about $18 an hour."

Woah there! This is an "I find some numbers. Let's assume they're relevant and compare them." argument. And I see it repeated over and over.

First of all, he said "philosophers" not "philosophy majors". The New York Times, for instance, came up with an example of a welder with a major in philosophy. That's a welder, not a philosopher. If you get a degree in philosophy, and you go become a banker, you're a banker, etc.

A person taking a philosophy degree is much more likely to have started in a good situation than a person who becomes a welder. Also, philosophy programs are not like women's studies or sociology. Philosophy, English Literature, and some History programs are quite challenging and rigorous. So if nothing else, it's a 4-year IQ test, plus a demonstration of confidence.

So what happens, in general, to people who decide they're going to be a philosopher no matter what? A few of them become professors, a few write books that sell well. The rest play-act as Diogenes.

It's ok to be smarter than others. Just remember it doesn't mean you're better.

>I say make college affordable for all

Keynes was an idiot. If an employer has you working for 4 hours, why not make you work for 5 hours? Etc. Anybody can see that this is not an economic equilibrium.

Nailed it.

>point is, theres no excuse to vote for trump if he sold you on the illegal mexican problem.
non sequitur

>it's pretty funny to think that Keynes thought that increased automation would lead to a 4 hour work week by now.
People still make this mistake, like that youtube faggot with the "no guise this time it's REALLY different I swear!"

>If you were told that you aren't guaranteed a job after graduating university

Practically no one believes this.

> not really working in the field you studied for

Pretty much everyone already knows this. I've got to say user you sound like you know some pretty nieve people.

>The information age enables the same education at a Harvard level for free or a fee sans lab practices and networking

While at university I got to ask questions of people who are at the bleeding edge of research, real geniuses, who understand their field better than most other experts in their respective fields. In a couple of weeks from now I'll be attending some colloquia presented again by people who are the forefront of human knowledge. I'll get to talk to them, and ask them questions. You just can't get that online, and it's unlikely that you ever will. Couple that with other kinds of seminars, workshops and tutorials and it becomes readily apparent that university is still where you need to go to learn.

Yeah, honestly.

I don't want my country to be full of robotic stem-lords with the social capacity of an autistic chimp. Leave that shit to China and India. The arts and humanities are what give us culture.

>It's the fucking rejects who go to UCLA or NYU out of state that pay like $30,000/year

lol, guess again. NYU is around $70k/year now. Most of the schools I applied to were around $65k/year (north eastern, upper middle class prep kid). Luckily I went international to save money. But the point remains that most good schools are insanely expensive.

i know this feel, i wish i could rid myself of feeling superior

it's a very damaging mentality