What are some books that are extremely pessimistic about life, but also portray it as beautiful (with the pessimism perhaps even part of the aesthetic)? That is, works that almost see life gaining meaning from pessimism, pessimism as the source of life. This seems not unusual among Russian writers, and after reading Laurus (which is written by a Medieval historian and very religious), I'm beginning to think it has something to do with their religious outlook.
But I'm sure it's not unique to that. Nietzsche seems to have seen the Greeks as taking a life-affirming, yet tragic worldview. I wouldn't really say Shakespeare's tragedies are both pessimistic and beautiful in their pessimism: his darkest, most pessimistic works, like Titus Andronicus, King Lear and Macbeth, portray life as horrifyingly meaningless--he doesn't derive meaning from the pessimism, the pessimism stems from the lack of meaning.
That's a good one, but I wouldn't say that applies equally across the genre. Some noir is more like Shakespeare's mindset: artistic portrayal of abject pessimism, but not really garnering a source of life from this. I think this is Polanski's mindset (who is clearly a moral nihilist); his Chinatown is the same worldview as his Macbeth.
Noir writings are, to me, in the vein of Lovecraft and Ligeti, which is more the King Lear pessimism than the Ecclesiastes pessimism.
David Ramirez
You're bandying around terms that don't mean anything to anyone other than yourself. No one knows what you mean when you distinguish "King Lear pessimism" from "Ecclesiastes pessimism."
Lovecraft is not noir. Not even close.
Cutting away all the self-serving bullshit in your post, I'm only looking at your first sentence, in which you ask what are books pessimistic about life but also aesthetically portray it as beautiful. That's noir.
Thomas Foster
I think anyone who has read both King Lear and Ecclesiastes can tell the difference. King Lear is pessimistic because life is meaningless, whereas Ecclesiastics, starting from the premise that life is meaningless, ultimately finds meaning in the pessimism itself, paradoxically overcoming the source of the pessimism through the pessimism.
Lovecraft isn't noir, but his work has the same worldview as noir, absolutely. The only difference is that it is expressed through the supernatural.
Jack Hall
Lovecraft has literally nothing to do with noir. I don't think you understand what noir is.
Lincoln Adams
Macbeth has literally nothing to do with noir either, I don't think you understand that I'm talking about underlying worldviews, not the style or subject matter of the writing itself.
Jack Phillips
I'm talking about underlying worldviews. Lovecraft's essential view of the world is cosmic horror. How is that noir?
Christopher Lee
> What are some books that are extremely pessimistic about life, but also portray it as beautiful (with the pessimism perhaps even part of the aesthetic)? That is, works that almost see life gaining meaning from pessimism
Carter Richardson
Because cosmic horror is a pessimistic reaction to variables as pointless. Or (as with the noir and King Lear worldview), where there is a point, that point is foreboding.
Kayden Sanders
How is "it's better not to live" a meaning for life?
Dominic James
Lol. Congrats on the worst description of cosmic horror I've ever seen, and that's saying something. Pro-tip, if your description of something is in spirit the complete opposite of the something you are describing, you should probably reevaluate your description.
Wyatt Reed
That's exactly what cosmic horror is though. Variables and unknowns are synonymous.
Joshua Cox
BEEP BOOP
Benjamin Myers
To elaborate, both King Lear and cosmic horror seen life as very much ruled by variables. Both of them see these variables are horrific and even, from a certain perspective, malicious.
>As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods, >They kill us for their sport.
These variables reinforce the idea that life doesn't have a definitive structure or purpose, but is in itself just a variable.
Nathan Wood
Please stop.
Samuel Cox
You're free to correct me, it shouldn't be too hard. Lovegraft and noir are just genre fiction, they aren't exactly complex.
Carson Ortiz
Are you autistic by any chance?
Carter Walker
No. Are you interested in actually posting something with substance?
Colton Clark
> How is "it's better not to live" a meaning for life?
Because, those books argue, such is the ultimate lesson to be learned from philosophical decryption of nature; that being is essentially suffering, that this miserable self-cannibalizing universe is only the manifestation of an original, inscrutable metaphysical imbalance - that there is no escape or redemption from unending desires within existence, so redemption can only come from rejection of existence. This philosophical system makes the most sense, deciphers the fullest meaning, of the spectacle of nature.
But if for something to "give meaning to life" means that it *justifies* existence rather than merely reveals its essence - something that would make it worth repeating, something that would attract us rather than abhor us - then Schopenhauer would ask why philosophy should have to provide a comforting answer to the riddle of existence.
Chase Hall
If by substance you mean your autistic analyses, then no. You do realize that lit crit is a creative activity, right?
Sebastian Robinson
Schop is an atheist, though. I'm not.
Julian Hill
>Noir writings are, to me, in the vein of Lovecraft and Ligeti, which is more the King Lear pessimism than the Ecclesiastes pessimism.
I assume you mean Ligotti. Can you elaborate on what you think the differences between these are?
Christopher Hall
Nevermind, I continued into the thread and learned that you're an idiot.
Charles Long
This isn't exactly what you are looking for but Mono no Aware is somewhat similar. It looks at life as necessarily fleeting and embraces that.
Christian Thompson
Any particular novels to recommend concerning that?
Oliver Smith
Nothing wrong with that if you don't mind taking a chance. An idiot can still say something useful or wise, it's just when he does it is by coincidence instead of wisdom.
Daniel Thompson
Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation is very well done, I think it's actually much better reading than Nietzsche who I used to study. Most of Beckett's work is influenced by Schopenhauer, his essay on Proust is basically Schopenhauerian philosophy. Many people have discounted Schopenhauer over the ages, but re-reading it I think he's a great interpreter of Kant, maybe one of the best, and that's worthwhile just there.
Angel Hughes
Schop doesn't really see pessimism as a source of life, though. He sees it as meaning it's better not to exist at all.
Colton Carter
No, that's a misreading that is common. He essentially argues for a pessimistic life through an ascetic life which uses aesthetics to create bliss, without relying on God or religion. It's basically Buddhism, which has been denigrated similarly as a religion of resignation, when it really uses pessimistic views as a springboard into mindfulness and expression. The Japanese Zen Buddhist Hakuin is a good example there.
Gabriel Gonzalez
>“If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?
Seems pretty anti-existence to me.
Ryder Hughes
>Schop is an atheist, though. I'm not.
Very true - he did, though, offer very interesting interpretations and even praises to several major religions; he identified what he believed to be glimpses and kernels of moral and metaphysical truths "cloaked" in the popular imagery of religious myths. Despite some criticisms, he has great respect for the theisms of Hinduism and Christianity and (he argues) their pessimistic, world-denying characteristics.
Judaism and Islam, on the other hand, he didn't have such nice things to say about.
"I am not Catholic, I am of Jewish origin, but I do not follow any religion. I took the text of the requiem for its image of the anguish, the fear of the end of the world."
Ligeti's background to this is WWII Europe. His entire family, aside from he and his mother, were killed, and he himself went to a forced labor camp.
Jayden Hernandez
terrible thread so far
read: dirty snow (simenon) the golem (meyrink) against nature (la bas) the maimed (ungar) aladdin's problem (junger)
as far as theory/philosophy there's bataille, cioran, adorno etc.
i don't know how many of these fit your set of interests but these are writers more or less invested in visions of negativity
Tyler Jones
So while Schop can grasp the overwhelming intensity of Christian pessimism, it doesn't mean to him what it does to a Christian.
