Law

Are you in USA? depending on the state there are a lot of variations so it maybe better to start with universal basics. on an unrelated note I found this book few months ago but for me it was too dry and too focused on being hip instead of being informative so it stretched out the basic concepts into eternity
Btw if you are still here you could ask me questions about my time in law school

The most important thing he can learn about human rights is that they don't exist and are a completely arbitrary term changing according to the will of the powers that be.

you will find that to be true of all laws. I want it expecting it to be like mathematics but its full of living subject like medical school

>want it
went in
>subject
subjects

so anyone got any questions on law?

i think kennedy has a book and alito too, maybe scalia. they'll give you the overarching theories of judicial law basically.

What's the equivalent of chancery law in countries other than England & Wales?

start with the Greeks

Don't know. chancery law seems to have aspects of principle of inquisition. at the first glance I would say its similar to Court of Arbitration
you start with the romans

Whilst there might be some works of historical interest most philosophical works will just make you realise that everyone except a few judges uses philosophy like a bower bird uses pen lids

Why would you use philosophy?

I'm currently in undergrad completing a degree in philosophy. My plan, which I've told everyone, is to go to law school after I graduate, but really I just decided that because it seemed like a good way to make some use of my useless humanities degree. I don't really care about the law, I'm lazy and depressed, and every time I read about law school it reinforces it in my mind as a terrible career option. But I have nothing else; I don't know what to do with a bachelor's degree in philosophy. Philosophy and literature are my only real interests, and I'm usually too depressed to take either seriously.

What do I do, lit? I'm having a huge existential crisis right now.

get a nice vitamin stack, start drinking a glass or two of whole milk a day, and start a lifting program

Law can be fun but it also has a pretty high rate of alcoholism and suicide.

I would guess tho that a JD can be used for good jobs outside of law btw. Like why not just do it and work out what you want to do?

A Civil Action
The Brethren by Bob Woodward
One L by Turow (about law school back in the good old days before lawyers were a dime a dozen)

I've been lifting for a year now, currently bulking (so no cutting depression).
>like why not just do it
Because every article and book (see above flowchart) about law school paints it as depressing, long, hard, tedious work with a side of crippling debt and alcoholism. Lawyers' favorite piece of advice is "don't go to law school." It seems, from an outside perspective, that everybody hates the law except for masochists and those who have some divine passion for it.

I certainly don't have any divine passion for the law. I feel like I don't have passion for much of anything, actually. I like reading when I'm not too depressed. I like playing sports. Movies occasionally. I cut out anime from my life but I still have a latent want for escapism – just no outlet now. I don't even know where I'm going with this. I just don't want to end up living out of a box after I graduate with my useless degree.

damn, well, dont stop lifting, youll just get more depressed. add zinc & vitamin D to your stack if you havent already.

besides that, i have no answer. it might just be something you have to work through. there's not going to be a magical answer or anything that cheers you up and motivates you. but trust this, at some point in your life you will be able to look back on the state you are in now. thats all i got for ya bruhbruh.

also, i would suggest reading

The Myth of Sisyphus by Camus
The Stranger by Camus
and Catch-22 by Heller

I'm going to recommend that you don't go to law school if you don't have any passion for the law.

From the people I met in law school, the philosophy majors generally seemed to be the most frustrated by it; it seems like it would be a natural stepping stone since philosophy and the law are both grounded in forming arguments, but the manners of argumentation are extremely different, especially in the common law system. It's more like being on the debate team, where use of sources and style are more important. Plus, you have to consider practical consequences, since law is very practical.

The legal job market sucks right now too, so keep that in mind too.

>Democracy in America by Tocqueville

Which edition should I get?

I've read all of those already. Didn't help much. Thanks for the advice anyway, senpai. I know there's no magical answer, but I appreciate you humoring me regardless.

So, in law school, it's better to be a sophist than a philosopher? That doesn't bode well for me.

What do you recommend I do instead of going to law school? Should I just suck it up and change my major to something marketable and accept that most people are not passionate about their jobs?

You are me.
I only care a bout literature and philosophy, I have a degree in English literature, and I planned on going to law school.
But I spend my free days inside, in bed, drinking, browsing Veeky Forums, and dreading tomorrow.
It's time to start law school but I don't have it in me, and my degree is useless, unless I want to teach children at the local grade schools.

I'm too old for an existential crisis.

What part of law are you aiming for?

get hyped for history of law and its development!?

I have no idea, honestly. My goal was (is?) to go to a top law school and then maybe do biglaw or some government work (federal clerkship maybe), but I honestly have no fucking idea. I kind of naively assumed that I would figure it out once I got to law school – which is a terrible plan.

De fuck is biglaw? Do you want to do corporate law or something? figure it out because beyond the mandatory classes you will have some optional classes you will have to take to have enough credit to graduate so its best to know what you are specializing in.
>I would figure it out once I got to law school – which is a terrible plan.
its an ok plan. I never wanted to go to law school and when I got there I eventually figured out I wanted to do criminal law

That book taught me to take as few classes with issue-spotter exams as possible.

>So, in law school, it's better to be a sophist than a philosopher? That doesn't bode well for me.

I wouldn't quite put it that way, but sadly yes, logical analysis is only a part of the practice of law.

Above all, you are an advocate for your client, and you are supposed to represent their interests zealously. The practice of law is rhetoric more than philosophy, so it is made up of the three classical elements of Logos, Pathos and Ethos, but nowadays with special emphasis on use of sources, i.e. the laws (statutes, cases, etc). You use these to represent your client's interests to the maximum extent permitted by legal ethics (you can't lie, encourage your client to lie, etc.).

You have a little more leeway as a judge (at the appellate level anyways), but even then you're not doing philosophy so much as you are engaged in selecting your own style of hermeneutics and fulfilling your own political theory of justice.

>encourage your client to lie
you can hint at it. your client can lie his ass off without consequences. you only have to fear the ethics committee so if no one reports you then you are fine but yeah you can't lie in the open,forge evidence,etc
>advocate
he does not have to be an advocate. He could be anyone from prosecutor, criminal investigator to a mediator,etc.

The young biglaw associates are working 90 hour weeks. That's doable for a few years in your 20s if you are a crazy hard worker type of person, and it pays well, but are you up for that? Plus the only people getting biglaw are (1) Harvard/Yale/Stanford, (2) top half of the class at the other Top 14 schools, (3) top 1/4 at best non-T14s. That's a tiny group all things considered. Always assume that you will be at the middle of the class at whatever school you go to, even if you go to a safety with a scholarship

>The young biglaw associates are working 90 hour weeks.
But not forever. All big business shit has a culture of that rubbish but it only lasts a couple of years really, and it's only to weed people out. There are also certain funky fun businesses and big law places that do not do this and believe in work/life balance, tho they're very competitive in the first round.

>You have a little more leeway as a judge
nope. your leeway ends at calculating the sentence and even then there are limits. you can't question the witnesses, etc. you look at evidence shown and see if it meets the level of proof needed and you can't inject your view because the results have to be solid enough that any other judge could have made them. hell the prosecution and advocate get to use rhetoric while judge is stuck with scripted text with only variation in small talk
>appellate level
on the appellate level no evidence is reviewed. you are basically rechecking the procedural integrity.

WARNING. DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL.

The current model—convincing 45,000 people each year to assume six-figure debt loads to chase 20,000 legal jobs (most of which do not pay enough to service the debt)—is simply unsustainable

>Always assume that you will be at the middle of the class
if you are lucky.
>biglaw
yeah I don't think that is for someone who does not know what they want in life. you don't just luck into stuff most people work all their lives for. for example I had to stay unemployed for 1 years because I did not apply for internship during Uni years but once I graduated every employer needed minimum 1 year experience

Such is the cycle. During my moms days it was med school. 1 job gets super popular and next thing you know marker is full of unemployed graduates. What job is that 1 job depends on where you are

Welp it's either Law or Education Administration

why not be a sanitation worker?

Spooks man

most low energy people say that they love it, you get solitude and pay is good

Answer pls

Human rights are presented as a real metaphysical thing everyone is entitled to as a liberal and egalitarian degradation of the natural law theory.
It's different from positive law in that sense.

But not being an American feels good.

I would recommend you pursuing other career options, such as economics, accounting, sociology, which are also job-available options.
Don't go to Law school looking for 'justice' 'right and wrong' or concepts of that kind.
In law school you learn how relations between people and institutions work. Like 'this is how it works', or indications as 'you have x options' in order to swim through legal texts and conflicts with ease.

I say this as a European Law School graduate currently studying accounting and preparing the exam for state auditor.

Tom Bingham: The Rule of Law

mostly UK/European law, much less American

I disagree with you as a European law student.
While the school itself does not particularly care about justice or philosophy, it's incredibly easy for one to pick it up yourself as a resource that will undoubtedly give you an edge once you start working.
Uk law is closer to American than it is to European.

It clearly gives you a useful perspective for any workplace you end up in.
I was rather referring to the profile of the posters I cited. i.e. Coming from a philosophy major the devoid-from-morality focus of the career might be hard to swallow

He's clearly talking about cases where the issue on appeal is legal in nature, and the appellate court has to interpret some statute or decide an issue of first impression.

Obviously that is a minority of cases, even in appellate courts. But they exist.

Maybe OP should have clarified which country he's in. In the US you shouldn't go and read a statute - look at hornbooks or treatises.

I just graduated from law school and am starting work at a biglaw firm in NYC.

I was similar to you in undergrad - majored in English, didn't feel super passionate about the law or any other viable career path. I basically just applied because I didn't know what else to do. Then I lucked out and was admitted to an elite school.

Here's my advice: if you can get into a top school (probably top 6), it will probably be worth it. If you can suck it up and do the work, the connections that you'll make will be worth it even if you don't stick with the law as a career for the rest of your life.

If you can't get into a top school, it's probably not worth it unless you get a significant scholarship, especially if you're not gung ho about being a lawyer.

Personally, I think people bitch and moan too much. Most jobs suck, at least in law you get compensated for it. However, some of my friends in law school who were similarly artistically inclined found the whole experience intolerable, so who knows. I thought I'd be a litigator, but I found the legal style of argumentation distasteful and ended up in a transactional / corporate law field. Personally I enjoy solving problems and having a window into the way the corporate world works, so it's interesting.

About how many hours a week did you work during law school? (classes+ outside reading/"homework") How many hours of recreational time did you have? Did you get adequate sleep?

Also if you are willing what was your school and what's your starting salary?

Also based on your initial experience/internship at the firm how confident are you that you will be able to succeed long term in corporate law (ie progress to the upper level of the firm without getting fired)? What kind of traits do you see among the top lawyers at your firm?

Thanks

Not a law student but i'm pretty sure John Grisham is the go-to for (genre fiction) law books. My dad has a bunch of them and they all sound good. My brother is studying law and has read most too. Before he started he got interested from reading books and media about law.

For actual literary books, I think William Gaddis has a book that is focused on the legal profession, which sounds interesting.

Aside from fiction your best bet to become acquainted with law and see if you like it would be to read non-fiction or find people to listen to that talk about law/philosophy/politics (which all relate).

Law is a patrician career OP. If you get into a good school and get good grades you will be set for a good career. I'm considering law one I finish my undergrad (in finance).

Law School confidential

Try actually reading some cases and see if they interest you. 80% of law school is reading cases and many law careers involve reading cases.

If you aren't engaged by the material in the cases you definitely won't be engaged by the contracts you'll be poring over for 70 hours a week as a lawyer. On the other hand enjoyment isn't all there is to a profession, most people don't particularly enjoy their jobs. There is a big trade off between recreational time+ease of work and income/prestige. Painful work is rewarded richly, otherwise everyone would/could do it and then the salary would fall.

What tier school are you in? HYS? Also, what were your stats coming out of undergrad?

I went to a top 3 school (i.e. fake grades) , so I actually didn't have to work that hard in law school. 1L year I treated it like a full time job, so I had about 16 hours of actual class per week but I stuck around to do the readings in the afternoons, which took a few more hours each day.

However, law school is super front loaded. In the fall before 2L even starts, you do firm interviews for a summer associate position for the following summer. For most top firms, if you get an offer for the summer you will almost automatically get a full time offer, unless you fuck up egregiously. So basically, after your first year you could already have a job lined up for after graduation. And if you're doing corporate work, they tend not to give a shit about your later grades, journal, etc so you can cruise. If you want to clerk you have to work harder, longer.

I'm getting paid the market rate for top biglaw firms - $180k base with I think a $10k bonus. I have an assload of debt but I can still live comfortably and start chipping away, even considering the ridiculous fed / NY taxes.

It would be exceedingly difficult to make partner in my firm - they make very few each year, and being a white dude doesn't help. But I don't know if I want that anyway - I intend to jump to either in-house or perhaps the government after a few years. Then later I could try and come back here, or go to another firm on a partner track.

There's like 100 new associates so it's hard to generalize, but there's a definite tendency towards extreme attention to detail bordering on the neurotic. People are driven and willing to work hard. There's a decent subset of people who are fun and outgoing, but the majority seem somewhat reserved. Almost everyone is from top schools, or must have had killer grades at other schools.

Yeah, I'm in one of HYS. Summa at a good but not elite college. Took the LSAT twice, above 170 the second time.

Go to the library and find textbooks + supplements for the following topics: Torts, Civ Pro, Contracts, Property

Look them over, then find important cases and try to brief them.

See if you can work out the logical structure of the decision and also the rule(s) at issue

>good but not elite college
>took two tries to break 170
>admitted at HYS

either you're a URM or had a hook and got in with (next to) no merit aid.

the étranger

Not URM and had no hook.

If you knew what you were talking about you would realize that HYS doesn't give merit aid. At least one of those schools doesn't average multiple LSAT scores and just looks at the higher one. And I didn't tell you what either of the two scores were.

stacks? where u getting this from

What were your LSAT scores? Also, how much did you study to break 170? And if you don't mind, what were your extracurricular activities in undergrad? Do law schools even care about extracurriculars, or is it all stats?

Anyone has a pdf/epub link to the english legal system please ? (14th edition or above)

14th Ed. is going for a penny on Amazon. I've already looked for the 16th - no luck, buy it.

Based on those stats, I'm guessing S.
Been at a biglaw firm 2 years now, and have friends at a lot of firms. The 90 hours per week average stat is inflated, that's even more than you'll be spending at a firm where they work you to death like Skadden and in a busy practice group. I've probably averaged 50-55 hours per week at the office, and maybe 70-75 hours per week during my busiest times (being in litigation, that's during a trial).

That being said, it doesn't get better. You keep wanting to hit your hours even when you're a midlevel or upper level associate. Even after you're a partner, you want to put in a lot of time because your compensation is tied to the amount you bring in (duh), and if you don't bring in enough you can be de-equitized. The exception to this is rainmaking partners that just bring in clients and manage relationships and let other people do the work, they can bill next to nothing of course, but they aren't as common as you might think.

You strike me as someone that has no idea what they're talking about.

>$180k base with I think a $10k bonus.
$15k bonus now for your first year and pro-rated for your stub year.
>Do law schools even care about extracurriculars, or is it all stats?
Almost all about the stats unless you're a URM or have got something particularly impressive going on in your resume otherwise- another degree, Rhodes scholar, military service, etc. No one cares about your undergrad clubs, though of course list them because they don't hurt either.

I'm a lawyer, and my one rhetoric class from college was much more relevant in law school than the two philosophy classes I had taken, so I'm not sure what you mean. Obviously my post was generalizing a bit, but this is a Tajik fish-fermenting forum.

Bump, this is interesting