In almost every ranking, universities in continental Europe lag far behind those in the United States and United Kingdom. Pic related.
Why is this? Lack of funding? Bad curriculum? No research?
European high schools are better than American ones, so why does this flip when it comes to college?
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>European high schools are better than American ones, so why does this flip when it comes to college?
you get what you pay for.
Shitty endowments. The universities at the top stay at the top because they have the top endowments which they use to recruit the top researchers, who are then able to get the top dollas for their top dog universities. It's a cycle.
Also, Americans, and to a lesser extent, toothless Harry's in Britain, are smurter than your typical euro trash who shit desu.
A large part of it is just money.
Harvard has a 32 billion dollar endowment. Most European universities have under a billion, most universities in general have under a billion but all the ones you listed are much higher. Well not caltech but since it is smaller and technical focused that money goes a lot farther. And even there caltechs endowment is over $2B and hardly any in europe even crack a billion.
But there's also this: universities in Europe are intended, primarily, to educate the students of that country. So there is a difference between the top ones, and the lower quality regional ones in each country, but that difference is not that big, and even the top universities have to set their requirements to be populated mostly by students from their country. Meanwhile in the US, top private universities don't give a shit about educating the poor and solely want to advance their prestige as much as possible, their admission requirements are ridiculous since they have 300 million people + top students from third word/asia to choose from. So there is a lot more difference, if you compare a more average US university, a highly ranked public school like UCLA or Michigan, to European universities it is a lot more comparable.
Also, how these things are ranked is mostly based on research/graduate school, on both continents undergrads are mostly there to pay the bills and keep the lights on. whether it's them paying or state funding.
What are these rankings even based on? Like what is even measured here.
I know some rankings use number of papers published, which is mostly tied to much much money a university has.
These rankings have very little to do with how good the education is. It's just for academic dick waving rights.
As Italian the problems uni here has are
a)no money
b)professor are more often than not glorified powepoint presentation readers with a god complex
c)too many people who don't care, and unlike top American unis ours can't afford to leave them behind
I am working on my second degree now so I have seen different places and I can't blame everything on bad luck.
It's money.
Most universities are free (or at max ask for 500 euros a year) in Europe, so they have a shitty gov budget, it's enough to produce good students but if one of them wants to make resarch he moves to the US or Switzerland.
The american education system basically lives over imported european and asian students.
It's pretty much the same thing when it comes to entrepeneurship, since we are closet socialist people don't have the freedom to create their business without being hammered by the regulations and fisc, so they move to the US where in bonus there are legions of VC firms and business angels.
Universities in Europe are often publicly funded, and thus at the mercy of retarded politicians.
For example, the university of Copenhagen recently had cuts across ALL programmes, because there were too many unemployed humanistic graduates or something.
europe is cucked. cucks don't lead. they sit in the corner watching.
those universities get billions of more dollars a year to do research
you speak as if you have some first hand experience
Because the system is rigged to put American universities at the top.
matter of fact i do
European universities are excellent. That's why the most powerful, most well-funded institutions in the world are interested in getting their students. The united states has very well-ranked universities for historical reasons, and because they have the best researchers from around the globe--educated elsewhere--performing experiments. America has very competitive, well-funded universities doing high impact science, but that doesn't necessarily mean the education is any good.
In top American schools you will see Russian mathematicians, Hungarian physicists, German chemists, South American agrochemicals researchers, and Japanese engineers doing good work using good equipment and writing good papers.
Only a small (rich) minority of Americans have access to the quality of primary, secondary, and undergraduate education that's offered elsewhere in the world. And children of the rich don't want to be professional scientists. It violates the Kondratiev cycle. Second and third generation bourgeoisie will always prefer to work in the circus or something.
You're retarded. Only 4% of the faculty is international and only 40% of post-grads are international. 10% of undergrads.
Butthurt eurotard.
This, here in India we have an insanely difficult university entrance exam for pretty much all disciplines (business, engineering, medical). By far the most popular for males is engineering.
IIRC the engineering entrance exam is more difficult than China's but less difficult than Japan's from what I've read online, if you want some comparison.
The guys who get top in that entrance exam in terms of ranking (around 110000 people give it per year) get into a government university that has shit for money, then go to a top US university for their masters/PhD, provided they're relatively at the top of their class.
The "America is a country built by hardworking immigrants" meme is pretty true desu
Also our public school system is more than adequate, our rankings when homogenized to asians and whites are higher than most of Europe. Private school is also not out of reach for anyone in the middle class. I went to a private school with working class parents.
Euro-peons are inferior.
And yet you shit in the streets. Nice.
I'm actually a Canadian, but I've been to European universities.
My main assertion is that the US has a lot of very good PhD students from different countries, and that most of those countries provide better quality undergraduate and secondary education to a larger portion of their population than The US does. Canada has the same problem imo, but to a lesser extent because the way we do research is different (less intensely competitive).
Shit for brains is worse than shit for streets imo.
Another thing to consider is that a lot of research in the EU is done outside of universities. An example is CERN, which isnt allied to any university at all, so all that research does not count towards a university ranking. Same with for example the RIVM in the Netherlands, does a lot of research into biology, virology etc, but is not allied to a uni.
have you ever been to a European school? This is what it's like. You meet undergraduates who would be in a whole other league if they were in a North American school, and many are competing to go be busy PhD students at American universities. Only the best will get in, whereas an American student with half the aptitudes could probably get in. So who do you think is doing the heavy lifting in the American labs?
There are some highly gifted Americans for sure, but scientific fluency is less common.
This is also true. In the EU, you go to 'research institutes'. Places like Scripps are the norm in systems outside of the US.
lack of specialization. the head of stanford said this about German unis in an article i'm too lazy to dig out now.
his core argument was that if a faculty in Stanford wasn't doing well in terms of scientific achievement (which in my experience tends to be measured in papers published) and had no plan on how to get to the top of its field, it would rather be cut than be sustained on an insufficient level. here in Germany, you can study pretty much any subject at any university, most of the time even universities in the same city have competing faculties (TU Munich/LMU Munich, TU Berlin/FU Berlin/Uni Berlin, other cities have similar situations especially considering als Universities of Applied Sciences which are on the rise in terms of scientific publications as well - you can study Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Medicine, Computer Science at all of these). There's a trend towards working together within cities and, project based, within Germany, but the cluttered structure still makes acquiring funds harder for everybody.
acquiring funds in general seems to be harder in terms of the process involved, at least Martin Odersky (inventor of the Scala programming language; used to teach at Karlsruhe Institute of Technology, now teaches at ETH Lausanne) said so in an interview i'm equally too lazy to dig up right now.
essentially, it's a multi faceted problem (unsurprisingly). my subjective feeling also is that the approach to teaching is different here. many professors seem to see teaching as a burden, while the lecture videos from US universities make it look like these guys are actually enjoying it. the general feeling here seems to be "they're at uni to learn by themselves, i'm only providing the material" while in the US it feels more like a "they're here because they're interested in me teaching them something", if you know what i mean.
>40% of post-grads
They are publicly funded. Mostly or completely depending on the country.
Of course you can build better universities if every student has to pay you the equivalent of a nice family house plus a car to get a degree from you.
Also why would administrators put effort into making their degrees as good as possible if there is no market competition for funds, they get their government bucks regardless of how good they are.
correct answer
If you had brains, you wouldn't shit in the streets for millennia.
Fair argument, I suppose.
>UCLA is an average US university
triggered
i chose it over Berkeley. not only is UCLA great, but unlike Berkeley everyone who goes there is there because they want to be, not because they didn't get into their top pick private school.
India was pretty rich though, until people attacked it (the Persians and the British) and looted it. See the Kohinoor diamond for an example.
bvy what means is it measured ? you just say it is "better"....
I doubt you ever went to a university.
being rich in the past or how you lot got colonized by the Brits doesn't give you an excuse to still shit on the streets in the 21st century
Jesus Christ...
Bullshit. Im at the university and study physics. we have tutors that work in cern our professors work with cern..... the universities are doing the experiments in accelarators such as DESY
know your stuff before you comment.
I'm sure you're baiting but fuck it i have nothing else to do
India doesn't have designated shitting streets. Take your /int/ memes somewhere else.
Gee I wonder why one of the most powerful nations on the planet is lobbying american or pro-american league tables to put american universities always at the top
>India doesn't have designated shitting streets.
cern is a separate entity from any university. the fact that university professors contribute doesn't change that
well, it does change it because them make their own experiments there. and i can as a bachelor student make experiments at DESY for the Bachelor thesis for example......
I even was there and they have shown it all to us.
This is not enough ???
your universitys have their own particle accelarators in the backyard ? kek
no because it is about research papers linked to the uni, and not to CERN. Yet in practice they are linked to CERN.
What do you even mean by that ?
Cauld you compare and state the differences and tell me what your point is ?
>India doesn't have designated shitting streets.
But they do shit in the streets. Storytime: one of my great-grand-uncles was a robber barron, after working in the steel industry all his life he decided he could do it better so gathered all his savings and fucked off to India, built a factory and became relatively wealthy. Anyway one thing he said was that he built his workers some living quarters complete with indoor plumbing (a novelty) but even then they preferred to "shit up against walls", his words not mine.
Berkeley is the best public university in the nation.
not enough people in America want to go to grad school for it to be higher. As the top American universities (Ivies, Stanford, MIT) are indisputably the best in the world, a lot of people from other countries want to go there.
Undergrad has 10% and not less because universities see foreigners as walking bags of gold bars that can be lawfully acquired.
I am not him but I don't believe there are actual designated shitting streets as designated by the government but rather just streets designated by the public mind as where its ok to shit.
This is true but the undergraduate population isn't as smart as say, HYPSMC.
Especially compared to MIT for STEM.
>Asking a question whose answer is so obvious that I thought this is a troll thread at first...
It's because in Europe, universities tend to focus on education of the students...
(Which is what all universities around the world should do, instead of ---> ''MUH MONEY! MUH STATUS! MUH PRESTIGE!!!!'')
This user explained it in short, pretty well:
well fuck... I was thinking of applying to UOC next year...
hmmm, a question... should I go to UOCopenhagen, UOTokyo or pay 10 billion for one of the unis in Murica?
Boy it feels fucking great to have free education here in Finland.
I'm 3 years in an engineering degree and I haven't even had the need to take a loan yet because we get so good student benefits.
If thats your only 3 choices go to Tokyo... Dont even bother with US its a waste of money, a lot of money. Plus you will learn less than you would in copenhagen or tokyo
Btw if you go to Tokyo be prepared to learn the language asap. You will be completely gimped otherwise.
Sadly...
He wont be fucked. I think Japan has a prep year thing that lasts 11 months before you actually start uni, where you learn the language and culture thingy. I was also looking at Asian universities but i ended up going in University of Dubrovnik...
Yeah I'm prepared for that. (If I end up going with UOT)
Oh, well then it's chill. Here in Scandinavia they kinda just throw people in expecting them to already know the language.
Well that sucks.
Yeah, however it should be noted that over half of the courses we take are in English.
t. M.Sc.Eng in Physics in Sweden.
>All the salty Euros ITT.
The idea that schools in the top 10 focus on research to the detriment of teaching is a fucking joke, life isn't an RPG, you can be good at both. Indeed at better universities you often get access to people that are world leaders in their field, their insight would be unprecedented and just can't be matched by someone from the university of literally where.
fuck murica wtf
where are you from? if you're from the EU there are discounts on university tuition
i just love that there's an infomap for this.
FUCK KEK
>tfw go to top 10 university and pay like 600 bucks per semester
feels good man
ETH is nice, but the german requirement for undergrad is irritating
Since I live in Germany, I don't know if paying this much money for education is supposed to be a good or a bad thing
I'll just leave this here
As others noted, e.g. in Germany asignificant proportion of cutting edge research is done in research institutes such as Max-Planck-Gesellschaft and CERN.
Moreover, my impression from my friends studying in continental europe is that there isn't an as competitive research culture there, as opposed to the department I'm at in one of the unis in your list.
Only super rich kids go to Ivy Leagues and top 10s in the US.
Most of these kids aren't su[er bright but they have top SAT scores, AP credit, every checkmark elite schools filter for. These aren't a filter for high IQ but for social status.
People not in on the secret think Ivies are full of little john von neumann's and alan turings.
They aren't,
true, I kinda feel bad for all the germans studying here and having to pay our prices
yeah don't really get that either, considering you'll have to know english anyway especially in stem. Some profs even switch to english when they have trouble explaining something in german and some of the course material is in english too.
If you're still a student, try to do a semester in one of the better US institution. They have more money and it shows.
what is AP credit?
College Credit taken in HS.
It wouldn't be uncommon for Ivy League students (in say math) enter freshman year having completed: Calculus I-III, Linear Algebra, Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Diff Equations, Topology.
Does this mean they are smart? No, it means their mommy and daddy made sure they could access a college education in high school or sent them to an elite high school + college combo to supplement their education.
This means they enter freshman year taking senior level / grad level courses and the advantage of 4-5 year head start ensures they are able to enter top 5-10 graduate level schools upon graduation.
The socio-economic advntg is huge.
Places like Caltech, MIT, and Berkeley are though... at least for the sciences.
This is denial.
All of the IMO medalists and geniuses go to top American institutions.
I couldn't care less about the rich douchbags.
Lol, no.
I know a guy who got into Cornell.
Black. Maybe middle class. No where near rich. 28 on his ACT. Good, but not great grades. Mediocre extracurriculars.
$40,000 a year in scholarships.
Exceptions don't invalidate it. See
Dude, you're not smart enough for MIT.
We get it. Most of Veeky Forums aren't smart enough for MIT.
It's unhealthy to deny it.
it has nothing to do with being smart enough. when your parents cant get you in: Calculus I-III, Linear Algebra, Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Diff Equations, Topology because they lack money to send you to a good secondary school it doesnt matter if your IQ score is 145. If you only taken Calculus I you cannot compete with the kid that took all of the above courses applying for MIT
that kid will get into MIT and you won't. even if he has a lesser IQ he has more college prep courses enterting into MIT than you do
=
only difference is parents income and lack of resources
Dude, denial is not healthy.
You're not smart enough to do well in IMO.
Just accept it.
Well, wait a second, if we're not going about this on a case-by-case basis, how are we doing debating this?
If you have some studies, or information about the entrants in top 10 universities, then post it. I'm not unwilling to accept that you're right if you are. It's just that, at the moment, I don't think you are because I personally know kids that went to these top universities, and none of them have been very wealthy.
Ivyfag here.
Generally what the Ivies look for is a better than average mind with an interesting story. They are less likely to take a whiz who does nothing but math (unless they're REALLY exceptional).
The super rich do go to Ivies, but the schools avoid drawing from that pool these days (diversity etc). Interesting backgrounds take precedence, unless daddy donates a new building.
I don't mind the system, it means less autism in my major (CS).
No you need to fuck off.
You cannot compare an applicant that attended a tier 3 high school, and top class was calculus I, SAT score 2300 to someone that attended a tier 1 high school, SAT score 2300 and took all undergrad math courses before applying to college.
Second kid will get in, first wont.
Ivies don't accept people that don't pass certain checkmarks.
Those checkmarks 99% of the time exclude anyone not from at least an upper middle class background.
Dude, seriously, not getting in to MIT is not the end of everything.
Accept you lack a bit in the brain department.
Don't blame rich parents.
It's unhealthy.
They dont accept many poorfags. Most poorfags dont make it past their checkmarks for social status (SAT Scores, ECs, feeder HS).
You're a retard. Not replying to you any more. Btw I went to a better school than you did. Top 10 here.
It says right there that 20% of Harvard's students pay 0 tuition. That's 1 in 5. 60% of their students that receive need-based aid pay $12,000 a year in tuition. That's over half of their students.
53% of MIT students are attending with some amount of need-based support, and 1 in 3 of their students are attending tuition free.
Over half of the students at arguably THE top two universities in the nation are on need-based financial aid. Unless you come up with some opposing statistics, you're gonna need to accept that you're argument doesn't hold any water.
mate this doesnt mean shit. how can you even try to construct a "nobelist per capita" and have that mean anything when theres no more than a handful per school to begin with. ENS hasnt had nearly as many in recent years. the whole concept is absurd
Nope. You're wrong. They paid my entire financial aid, and also give me $2000 a semester for whatever I want. I was in the
Fact: Massachusetts is the most power place on earth
>It wouldn't be uncommon for Ivy League students (in say math) enter freshman year having completed: Calculus I-III, Linear Algebra, Real Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Diff Equations, Topology.
Actually thats extremely uncommon even for kids who competed in the IMO.
I'm not fucking wrong. I went to a top 10 and maybe an even more elite school than you since my classmates were all very very wealthy people. Some sons and daughters of politicians. Fuck you
Then I went to a more elite school than you. Sorry.
>I'm not fucking wrong.
Yes, in fact you are completely wrong, in a sense that is very rare, in which pretty much anyone can see that you are wrong. You keep relying on this top 10 bullshit as if it means something. Heres the facts: If you are a good student, you can get into IVY leagues, you dont need to be a football player astronaut whose the son of a nigerian oil lord, or any stupid shit thats in your political narrative. Not only to Ivies pay your tuition if you are poor, no school gets your financial information until after you are accepted.
The person who told me that was Bjorn Pooen kek. I suggest you get a reality check.
college isn't the same as university, it's a tier below
You miss the entire thesis. If you are poor 99% chance you will not receive the education to score 2200+ on the SAT nor given the chances to succeed academically to have a shot at ivies. Just because we attended a top 10 doesn't disprove those facts. I will not reply to another comment in this thread, so do not bother replying to me.
college and university is an interchangeable term in America. It means the exact same thing.
In the US, "university" and "college" are interchangeable terms. They mean the exact same thing.
