The big bang

>Like how evolutuon created all the species, yet it isn't "intelligent".
That's a argument on semantics tbfh. Evolution seems like a pretty fucking intelligent process if you ask me, and if you look at it from a macro perspective.

what you have to accept is not knowing. Science doesn't claim to know everything, even more so about the origins of the universe. We have strong theories and a lot of research is being made in it. But there's nothing certain and completely "true" we can tell you right know.
Since you have a faith problem, I'd recommend you to change completely your point of view. Not knowing should not be sad, and it shouldn't make you question wheter you should still believe in a higher power.

>Not knowing should not be sad, and it shouldn't make you question wheter you should still believe in a higher power.
It does though, user, and it's fucking hard to break out of that mode of thinking. Surely you can understand why?
It took courage and a fucking *lot* of soul-searching to even take this intellectual step.

God of the gaps vs Science of the gaps.

I don't think it's just semantics. While you may call evolution intelligent, you definitely can't call it conscious, and you can't say that it has a will of its own. And when you want spirituality and a sense of purpose, a mindless process, even if it can be called intelligent, does not give you that, while a god does. So there is a huge difference between the universe having been created by a god an it having been created by some mindless, albeit intelligent, natural process.

Also can't help but feel that what you are suggesting is that I replace one form of confusion with another one, though obviously Islam is way more fucked up than scientific understanding.
But in striving for a greater understanding of reality, I don't see how doing that helps me.

For a while now, what I have been doing is trying to reconcile Islam with science and just let the two things sort of get along in parallel and just discarding shit that gets too conflicting. I might go back to doing that (kind of in a pascals wager type way) until I come across something better. It's not that I lack the guts to face the unknown, it's that I am tired of not knowing and if something makes a small amount of sense to me, then why not at least try it.
You probably already know this but in Islam the idea is that evolution is something akin to a process that Allah/God set in motion and then it just went according to Allah's wishes and we ended up with what we ahve now.

>Muslim
Here let me help you .

Islam is a set of Arab symbols placed in an Arab grammar.

Go with the system that evolved processing nature close contact.

Veeky Forums is a Christian/atheist/Jewish/(insert other peaceful religions) website. Leave muzzie shit. We don't need you in Germany.

wow
i guess Veeky Forums probably has a large share of absolute fucking morons
another fucking bottom-feeding retard, this time one who helpfully outed himself as a german rat

If you call him a "German rat", then you are just as bad as he is. Hell, you're even worse, because you are calling him a "German rat" in a very self-righteous way.

How's your wife's boyfriend Sven?

I get to call him that because the german rat didn't even bother to read anything other than the word Islam and sperged out almost instinctively. Never mind the fact that I have never been to Germany or the fact that this thread was about me trying to understand things to help the transition OUT of Islam easier. No, the german rat needs to sperg, it's in his blood after all.

>No, the german rat needs to sperg, it's in his blood after all.
Look buddy, if you say things like that, you legitimize judging people based on superficial things like their religion or the country they come from, which would mean that he wasn't even wrong to call you a "muzzie" and tell you to GTFO.

oh believe me I know and understand it's hard. It takes a fuckton of effort to break that way of thinking especially if you were indoctrinated as a child. It's wired in your brain. I still struggle with it.
>But in striving for a greater understanding of reality, I don't see how doing that helps me.
What better way of getting greater understanding of the origin of the universe is there to recognize that there's no real and concrete answer to that question yet?
I'd say beliving in a "creator of the universe" god its relatively a respectable position since the origin of the universe it's still a mistery.
But I don't see how you can reconzile science with Islam, since it describes a very expecific form of God (Allah), human-like, etc. No way of proving that. You can still say that given the uncertanty of everything Allah could exist, but that its just too much of a leap of logic, I don't think no one could make such claim.
Quoting NDT: "Does it mean, if you don’t understand something, and the community of physicists don’t understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, here’s a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didn’t understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If that’s how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if that’s how you want to come at the problem."
youtu.be/BRHefbIgKxk?t=464

Apparently Veeky Forums does not embed videos with the time mark you select. So go to 7:47 if you don't wanna see the whole clip.

>since it describes a very expecific form of God (Allah), human-like, etc
But it doesn't. I probably read it differently, there is a verse about the religion as a whole being very open to interpretation (3:7) so there's that.
Yeah but it's not very nice to label someone as something which they are actively trying to break out of. It's like laughing at a drug addict and the staff telling them to gtfo of the rehab clinic.

>paying taxes so junkies can get treatment in rehab clinics
It was their choice to take drugs knowing that shit would fuck up their health. Let them die. I'm not paying for someone who fucked their own life on purpose.

People don't take drugs to fuck up their health you fucking cold-hearted autist. They take them precisely because this reality is so fucked up and ugly and they want to momentarily let go of this shit. I've always kept away from them myself but I can see the allure and I do feel pity for those who get caught up in that lifestyle. I just don't want them anywhere near me if possible.

Oh shit my life sucks. Hey am gonna inject this shit in my veins it will feel much better. If your life sucks go see a shrink or a therapy group or go to church or leave your fucking basement and meet some people. There are much better alternatives than drugs.

Kys, islam and islam minions make the world worst. If your prophet being a war mongering pedophile isn't enough to make you quit this shit religion, then you don't deserve a pint of respect. Nigger

>war mongering
Wars happened long before Muhammad
>pedophile
I came across a lot of evidence recently to the contrary

My problem with Islam goes way deeper, an ignorant /pol/-sheep like you would never understand.

Islam is a hoax man. Muhammad stole christianity and made it in his own image.
The various proofs of islam are really just lucky guesses if you could call them that.
There was no Noah and no flood.

Can you fuck off back to /pol/? We're not discussing dogma and literalist Islam here. We're discussing how the universe got here if Allah didn't create it. All the shit you're saying is decades old crap that your pastors got fucked into their asses by their own pastors when they were kids. I don't really care about defending Islam, that's not my job or intention here. I'm trying to rationalize the reality of the universe without the Islamic aspect. You're not really helping with your adjunct bullshit, you stupid cunt.

>I came across a lot of evidence recently to the contrary
Isn't it like, literally in the quran that Mohammed fucked Aisha when she was just nine years old?

No it like, literally isn't

You should really keep an open mind when it comes to these things and its important to be humble and conservative about what we do know and liberal about what we don't know. (not political definitions fyi)

Not a physicists and I honestly don't know much about the Big bang. I nkow there is evidence that supports the theory of the big bang like cosmic background radiation.

I don't want to impose my ignorance on the subject and say the big bang is fact nor do I want to say that it is fiction. However, I accept that I am biased and I see there is no reason to doubt at the moment that the big bang theory is the most accurate depiction on the origins of the universe.
I do however know that whether or not the big bang happened, neither outcome implies the existence or nonexistence of God. Though it does throw the idea of an abrahamic god into the realms of doubt.

Watching little girls play with dolls, that is some creepy pedo shit right there.

>Jesus
Stood for peace and love. Used words as a weapon to convert people.
>Mohammad
>we shall clean the land of the infidels. Used swords as a weapon to convert people. Married a 6yo and consumed marriage when she was 9.
But Islam is a religion of peace right. Because there were wars back then. Let me tell you that doesn't mean shit. Just because there's Wars nowadays does that mean I can behead people? The only people worth following are those who do something positive even when there's war and blood all around them. So don't come up with the bullshit that your prophet was bad because other people were too. Guess what people were bad back in Jesus time. Your literally saying ISIS acts aren't that bad because there's war all around us. Why the fuck am I talking, I don't think a ISIS retard like you would understand.

It's a fact. Although why did it happened isn't and probably science will never find out. Also kys for being a Muslim.

>You should really keep an open mind when it comes to these things and its important to be humble and conservative
I know and I do try, that's all any of us can really do when it comes to these sorts of things.

>biased
I wouldn't say you are biased, you are just going with the body of scientific evidence that the human race has compiled so far, which is exactly what I intend to do.

>I do however know that whether or not the big bang happened, neither outcome implies the existence or nonexistence of God. Though it does throw the idea of an abrahamic god into the realms of doubt.
Maybe a Christian/Judaic God. To me, the Islamic God has always been something that is paradoxically closer yet more distant and elusive than the earlier 'versions', I go back to what I said earlier about the Higher Intelligence.

As to whether the big bang implies the existence or non-existence of God, then I definitely look at that very differently, precisely because of what I mentioned in the previous paragraph. The whole concept, to me, seems to depend on a Higher Intelligence having 'decided' to put the wheels into motion. Otherwise, what made it happen? Was it random? Why did it happen? I guess these are not really Veeky Forums questions, but the one thing that I thought Veeky Forums might know is whether there could be another cause or explanation for how the universe got here.
Literally fuck off back to /pol/. I've only come to Veeky Forums a few times and I can already tell (((your))) not smart enough to converse here, you fucking unevolved monkey.

>destroyed your argumentation
Lalalallalalalah can't hear you. Muh feelings, back to /pol/. Lalalalalalala

Please do not speak like that of prophet jesus. An enlightened prophet of God would never claim to be the son of god. It was crazy cultists desperate for creating a religion in which they could be the top and gain power whi created devilish christianity.

Also, as good as Prophet Jesus was, Muhammad realized how truly corrupted the human soul was and realized that battle was necessary.

Obviously, many bad things happened but in the modern days my people only kill women, homosexuals and white people so nothing of value is being lost.

OP, for someone having a "crisis of faith" you sure are sucking Islams dick pretty hard.

>argumentation
kek
But yes, you should fuck off back there. You don't seem to comprehend what we're discussing and you're now shitting up the thread for no reason, just like a good little useful /pol/ idiot.

Nice b8 made me Kek. 11/10

Not really. I just don't feel like being a useful idiot for /pol/'s usual crusade bullshit. I refuse to be manipulated by people with IQs that low. If they want me to shill for them, I insist they at least pay me a decent wage, not gonna do it for free like they do 24/7.

Am I the one who has to go back. I sorry I thought you were here for science but your doing exactly the opposite just like this user said . So back to /r/islam. Veeky Forums is a board of peace and science. After all you were the one that started all the Islam shillings fag. So pls leave.

now fuck off and go derail some thread on a board that has time for you

No bait. I mean all that seriously. Do not insult prophet jesus' legacy by making him a corrupted cult leader. He died being a muslim.

And do not disregard Muhammad's call for battle as violence. Read the qur'an. Males and non whites are above females and whites. Their murders/torture is justified if done for god.

Take it back to /pol/ with that other fuckstick. No one wants the dogmatic crap here except you stupid fucks from that board no one wants or needs.

/pol/ is a shithole filled with islamophobic whites. Fuck then. They are all going to hell anywhere.

I also study pure mathematics so this is my board, faggot.

Holy fuck you literally could have just ignored the "/pol/ people", but no, you had to start throwing ad hominem attacks everywhere and defended islam as a peaceful religion when it is not and you wanted to leave it.

Either you are a troll or stupid.

>This is my board
You are not entitled to your board.

Everyone on /pol/ is islamophobic for a reason. What if one day, ahmed decides it's a good idea to bomb people in new york, because his god told him to?

>study pure mathematics
Then keep the discussion on topic then, shitstain. We're talking about the big bang here.
Only reason I mentioned religion is because it was relevant to the topic in needing to know what the alternate possibilities to the big bang are.
I'm easily baited, therefore stupid I suppose. I wasn't defending Islam, just replying to the /pol/ crap because I am done with their reality distortion bullshit for a long time now. I didn't say it was peaceful at all so stop lying, dickhead.

New York is filled with white people so it is not a sin.

I will even pray for him not killing non-whites by mistake.

Just so you and faggots like you know, one of the main reasons I began to question my Islamic faith is an abundance of Islamic cunts like you. I really hope you end up like one of those suicide bombers who misses everyone except himself.

I will pray to the (possibly nonexistent) Higher Intelligence that this happens.

And I'm also certain you are some microdick gook or possibly a dumb cunt arab.

>gook
>cunt arab

And you people act surprised when we call you racists?

I'm OP. And you are racist yourself in how you don't mind if whites get killed.

Religion of peace strikes again.

Come on you're baiting. No one can be that stupid. Also
>NY
>white people
Pick one.
And stay away from the God Emperor throne.

Maybe prior to the Big Bang, everything was condensed to a infinitely small and hot point. A quantum fluctuation in the natural laws caused time to begin.

>pure mathematics
I think you need chemistry to make bombs Ahmed. Unless you wanna make an upgrade and go full nuclear.

Not my fault if whites are hated by god.

And still you wonder why Veeky Forums in general hates Muslims. The #NotAllMuslims is really a fucking meme. Deep inside you're all fucking terrorists. Die you fucking human scum. I have no word to describe how fucking low you guys are. I hope Trump BTFO ISIS and western countries outlaw Islam. Pol was right all along (I never thought I was gonna say this). You're filthy scum that needs to be wiped from the face of the earth.

Everyone knows that they are terrorists, but no one wants to speak out because they will be ridiculed. Soon we will start having shit like
#TerroristLivesMatter
#StopTheHate
#MuslimsDinduNuffin

Even the book has parts that say that non-believers should be killed.

And why the fuck no one does shit? Fuck I bet even satanists aren't that bad. These guys mass murder and rape and everybody says let's take even more refugees. I tired of this politically correctness shit. Fuck this gay Earth. Come to my country faggots. My Walter would like to have a word with you.

Okay have you all got the /pol/ shit out of your systems now?

Can we get back to the discussion about the big bang?

The big bang is a theory with much data to back it, but it cannot yet be considered the birth of the universe.

Religion is simply another way of looking at it.

I thought it was accepted fact. Sorry to sound ignorant but what makes you say it can't be considered more than a theory? If it wasn't the birth of the universe, what was? Please explain if you have any more information.

Big Bang is a political theory. It was hauled out of the private Vatican archives by some greasy Jesuits and popularized through their massive propaganda mill, the real authors of this shitty theory probably crucified centuries ago for heresy. They did this because of the gaping back door to sneak god in, creating the Big Bang itself.

I am all for mental masturbation regarding the origins of our universe but these blatant attempts to co-opt theory by the church are reminiscent of the dark ages as attaching any sort of authority to a pop theory is ridiculous.

Now that's what I call Bait 2017™

No one was around then (we think), and although it is the strongest theory, we still don't know if it is the truth.

For all we know, our universe could in a box being used as some aliens science project.

superstringtheory.com/cosmo/index.html

Well then how close is this certainty to the theory of evolution which we now accept as fact even though it's nominally called a theory?

Thanks I'll check it out. I thought string theory got massively debunked a while back though.

The BBT is just the theory that at one point the universe was really close together. It's basically the logical conclusion from the observation that everything is moving apart. It does not say anything about what made everything start moving apart, nobody knows that.

Phase Transition, look it up.

This may sound obvious but the reason many people think the logic points to a Higher Intelligence is that for something to 'start moving apart' you need some kind of force to make that happen, things don't suddenly start moving in a vacuum, so there had to be a first cause, which many end up explaining with God.
Okay

But that's wrong, it's still popular among physicists, especially the smart ones.

Besides, only the 5th topic in the link is about string theory. The rest is general cosmology.

Well that begs the question of what caused this higher power to be. The only response I've heard to that is that the higher power just "is", to which I say, if we're doing that then why can't the start of the big bang just "be"?

I'm not saying either of those positions are right or wrong but there is no reason to put one above the other.

Not debunked, it's just currently untestable

What is the "Higher Power"

Is our universe some aliens science project?
If there is a god, why hasn't it acknowledged itself?

I would recommend not pondering this topic too much, you may cause yourself to fall into depression. Who knows, maybe the answer is extremely easy, and someone will find it in less than a day, but until then, we don't know.

>The only response I've heard to that is that the higher power just "is",
Well yes exactly, the Islamic version of God says he/she/it has always just existed. The start of the big bang can't just 'be' in the same way because we instinctively expect everything in our empirical understanding to operate on laws that are observable. You may be right about not putting one above the other, but I just feel there is more logical reason to *not* want to accept that the very thing that gave 'birth' to the universe we exist in could operate any differently to that same universe. Maybe that's limited thinking. I don't fucking know.
I was only referring to the 5th topic, I will check through the whole site.
>If there is a god, why hasn't it acknowledged itself?
It has, in some manner, even though we may want to say that manner is not how it 'should' be. At least this is what I used to believe.

>you may cause yourself to fall into depression
What the fuck, user? What the fuck kind of copout pussy response is that? Man the fuck up.

I swear physicists will find something wrong with their forever expanding model and they'll revert back to a cyclic model. Then again I don't really understand how tiny fluctuations in temperature in the cosmic microwave background shows it has to be quantum fluctuations ultimately supporting inflation.

Chances are if you are an autismo who demands an answer and you ask a question that has no answer, then you will waste much time of your life trying to find it.

>and you ask a question that has no answer
That is really some defeatist shit.
But nah, I get on with life and ponder these things in my quiet moments. Life, to me, is meant to be lived and enjoyed.

I see what you're getting at, everything in the universe follows some kind of cause and effect thing but as far as we know that only applies to the contents of the universe, not the whole thing. For all we know the universe could just start or always have been.

>as far as we know that only applies to the contents of the universe, not the whole thing
This is what isn't completely certain or proved yet, hence the doubt.

Yeah, I don't think we'll ever know

But that doesn't make it any less valid an assumption than "there's an external higher power that's just always there"

Yeah it's weird how the two assumptions are almost symbiotically linked though. One implies the other. Or completely denies the possibility. Honestly, my real hope in making this thread was just to check if we had made any progress on understanding what happened at the big bang and it doesn't really sound like we have anything more conclusive than we did about 10 or 20 years ago, though I have some material to read now at least.

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