Since your brain is made up of atoms it doesn't have any more free will than a rock and anyone that thinks otherwise is...

It is and it isn't. Determinism isn't what this is, however, this is reductionism.
And even then, sum of components can become greater through emergent properties.
Ergo, we are more than just atoms.

>Ergo, we are more than just atoms
Sorry brainlet but you're talking nonsense, a computer is also complex does that make it have free will? No, it's just a chain reaction of predetermined chemical reactions like your brain.

Does a computer continuously receive input from itself and its environment?
Does a computer continuously re-adapt its system in order to reply in a correct way to itself and its environment?
Does a computer react to itself and its environment?

No, you fucking monkey. A computer works discretely while a central nervous system works continuously.
You need continuous re-adaptation of yourself and according to your environment. And that's just a nervous system. I haven't even talked about consciousness.

wouldn't a consequence of determinism be that knowing where every single particle in the universe was we could predict "the future"

Those emergent properties are components and part of the sum themselves.

100 Fe atoms looked at seperately in a vacuum
100 Fe atoms interacting with eachother

You tell me what the difference is when you look at the two scenario's.

>Does a computer continuously receive input from itself and its environment?
>Does a computer continuously re-adapt its system in order to reply in a correct way to itself and its environment?
>Does a computer react to itself and its environment?

I see you don't know anything about computers.

nice rebuttal. you truly showed humans are as deterministic as a rock. sam harris would be proud

ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwstrawson1.htm

Well, those statements that you made were very, very simply incorrect.

It takes no amount of brain cells to realize that:

1. Computers are not living in some magical discrete world. They are part of the same continuous world as we live in.
2. The computer in fact MUST do all of the things that you said it cannot do in order to function properly.

It could be that there's randomness which prevents it but that still doesn't mean there's free will, it's just rng.

Nah, he's right, computers are pretty complex at the moment and I was wrong overly simplifying it that way. Thing is, central nervous systems are more complex. And when you deal with a body that continuously needs to sustain itself through transcribing the right amount of shit at the right time, you get something extraordinarily complex. Like, a single cell is already extremely complex, when one would reduce the entirety of a brain to just atoms is just some edgy

I meant discrete as in, they receive input from shit that you or its environment it's plugged into receives (electrons (bytes, data, whatever you want to call the internet accessing your computer is), keystrokes, on/off, open/close gate, etc).
Only the electrons are a continuous factor here. And it's a big one at that.

how is there room for randomness in a deterministic universe? the future should be predictable

exactly. there's way too many variables for this to be feasible though. if you believe in rng ruling the universe you are a fucking retard.

for the sake of argument, let's assume it is feasible and we managed to do it. let's assume you're sitting at a table with a glass of water in front of you and according to the current state of all particles you will lift this glass and drink its content in 20 seconds. let's assume i tell you of this result, what do you think would happen? you think you'd be compelled to drink that glass of water against your will?

yes, actually. if they managed to calculate how your brain would process them telling you how it would go, and the result is that you will still do it, then i absolutely believe that for some reason, you will end up drinking the glass of water.

lmao pure retardation honestly.
dogmatic belief system at its worst

Literally yes, yes and yes to all of those three things, how the fuck do you interact with a computer to make it compute if a computer doesnt react to its enviornment you fucking tool. fuck you're a stupid brainlet. and because people don't react to or sense magnetic fields the same way birds do we aren't continuous either we are discrete or whatever the fuck stupid DUALITY you've made in your head. hurr de fucking durr oh my fucking god youve really set me off you total moron

you'll just have to accept that we're not the same as rocks. ok maybe you are if you believe it strongly enough and have enough faith.

Q: What are rocks made out of?

A: Protons Neutrons Electrons

Q: What are people made out of?

A: Protons Neutrons Electrons

Its just the arrangement that matters, the substance is the same.

just think about it for a bit before you go full ignoramus again.

Better question would be what is free will. There's no singular definition that everyone can agree on, thus the argument is kinda pointless.

>made of the same thing therefore you're the same
kek what a moron honestly. i feel sad for you. take some time to observe dirt maybe you realize there are ""subtle"" differences.
or you can keep believing in your religion and be a rock but only if you really really believe it

Atom is fucking magical being and science will never know how it actually works

Your statement relies on the assumption that
>Rock has no free will

Prove it.

It also lies on the assumption that
>your brain is made up of atoms
which is incorrect.
Your brain is made up of:
>atoms
>virtual particles
>radiation
>spacetime

Consider at least that one individual atom behaves deterministically, the interactions between two atoms behave deterministically, and that the behavior of a human emerges from the interactions between the atoms in its body.

Do you have a problem with any of these? If not, a human's behavior is deterministic, because the interactions that determine its behavior are deterministic.

Unless maybe there is a problem with concluding that, but that would mean there is a way to combine multiple deterministic interactions to produce something not deterministic. How do you conceive of something like that happening?

Or maybe you are using a definition of free will where determinism can coexist with free will in some way. If that's the case, please define free will.

and yet some things are inanimate such as rocks while others aren't, despite being made by the same atoms. as if you're missing something.

I never mentioned rocks, but the atoms in a rock would be arranged in a way that the interactions produce no macroscopic movement, and the atoms in you are arranged such that you suck cocks and your brain degenerates every day

so the same atoms would produce different macroscopic effects base on how they are arranged and yet this negates free will. you really are an idiot. but what can you expect from a person who believes he's a rock. keep you gay fantasies to yourself.

Rekt

Why the fuck physicst is so arrogant
i hate the fuck that they know everything when they didnt even know exact number oin physics

WHAT??

t.physicist

Do you believe we have self awareness or is that an illusion too?

>atoms alone can't have free will or experience
>we demonstrably have free will and experience
>ergo we have souls/life-force

checkmate, atheists

So summer started already?

Gay post completely false
Many such cases.

You forget that if you knew the state of all particles you would know you were going to tell him. Your instruction to him is a deterministic physical reaction. If what you said was true, then he will pick up the glass anyway, somehow. One factor is randomness e.g. quantum which still doesn't mean free will. At face value it seems like a paradox like the liar paradox or better, the grandad time travel paradox but it really doesn't necessarily have to be since the way the question is described doesn't reflect the complexity of what the the actual situation with all the factors that might affect the person in the universe would be like. The result depends on how much you tell the person about the situation and also what specific factors in the universe are at play which may not be immediate to the situation. Potentially so many. Maybe they don't pay attention to what you say, maybe some other kind of deus ex machina causes them to pick it up anyway.. The situation is so complex because if you say you use whole state of universe to predict his action you can theoretically ad hoc the situation infinitely to resolve the seeming paradox. The description of the situation here is underspecified so much that if you did specify it, for what you criticise about to make sense, it would be logically wrong given all we know about the universe right now and cease to be a paradox but simply a false statement. Sorry but we are completely determined.

This only works if the topic was consciousness, an emerging property but determinism isn't like that, it's like a metaphysical law not a malleable physical property. Tbh free will is paradoxical concept anyway. Folk psychology.

>we demonstrably have free will and experience
lol

Rocks get eroded, they fall off cliffs. That's animation and force the same as how our body moves and we think, just a rock isn't a simple. If you look at it as part of a whole weather system or somehing that's more similar to animate humans but no way as complex. Weather has no free will does it. Both weather and people use the same mechanistic principles and arrangements. Don't need free will to explain movement. The rock just less complex, less components. The rock to the weather system is as an amino acid to our body in a sense. All you need for the movement is an energy source to run the system. Just like any machine or complex non free will computer (also animate) I.e. food for humans, heat from the sun and maybe geothermal energy for weather, electricity for laptop.

NO FREE WILL.

One thing to consider is that free will and determinism are assymetric. Not direct opposites. A computer having no free will doesn't necessarily mean a person can't (given people's beliefs about how free will might exist) while the same is not true for determinism given what we believe about how that would work within what we know about the universe. Need to be careful about how we frame the question.

Self awareness not same as free will.

Should have used the atom not computer as example.

so we do have it or not?

>The situation is so complex because if you say you use whole state of universe to predict his action you can theoretically ad hoc the situation infinitely to resolve the seeming paradox. The description of the situation here is underspecified so much that if you did specify it, for what you criticise about to make sense, it would be logically wrong given all we know about the universe right now and cease to be a paradox but simply a false statement.
please elaborate

Yes.

where does that come from?

It sounds like if you told someone they would pick up the glass it would be easy to refuse but it depends on the other factors affecting them too. E.g. might not be paying attention, some other random shit.

Telling them is deterministic too. I.e. vocal chords airwaves brain signals etc. Did you take into account telling them in the states used to predict their action? Surely you knew you would tell them. If you did then obviously they have to logically do it.

The way the description is described is underspecified. You have to explain every single factor to validate that someone can just not pick up the glass when it is predicted from universes states. If you somehow did validate it, it would disprove determinism if it was originally predicted he would pick it up and didnt. given what we know everything about universe and even how brains work, I think that is unlikely and the statement would simply be false. If you knew all prior states you would have to be able to predict it in deterministic world. Saying that it is intuitive for someone to go against the prediction when they find out is a product of the statement not telling you about all the factors. Almost like the availability heuristic if you look that up in psychology.

If you use the simple description without specifying all variables, just saying " you think he would still pick it up if I told him?" then it simply resembles the time travel paradox where u go back in time and kill your grandpa. Unless you already knew you would tell him, telling him is like introducing some new factor which wasn't in your original calculation and it becomes paradoxical. Like if you were alive to kill your grandpa, then your grandpa was obviously not killed. Paradox. If intuitively the guy refuses to pick up the glass, it must mean you didn't take into account telling him which you must have if you knew all the influencing states including the states in your own brain

Product of the ability to perceive environment (including self) and make inferences (not objective) about the causes of sensory inputs from the environment (including your self).

and where does that come from?

By availability heuristic I mean that it seems intuitive to refuse to pick it up because you're not aware of what possible factors may make him not pick it up and given the size of the universe this is many to the extent I can just make up factors ad hoc. a person doesn't have to intuitively pick it up and in a deterministic universe given the very simple statement, they cannot pick it up. The person predicting it would have to be wrong which you can only say by specifying all factors. Till then, the whole thing is hypothetical and condition but can only say that the statement about intuitively picking it up when told they would by someone, doesn't disprove anons original example of predicting someone picking up the glass from knowing all the states in the universe.

The brain and nervous system extending into our bodies.

and they're ultimately made of atoms. so do atoms have self awareness? where does this property come from?

>If intuitively the guy refuses to pick up the glass, it must mean you didn't take into account telling him which you must have if you knew all the influencing states including the states in your own brain
everything is taken into account including me telling him obviously. let's say this person is a staunch opponent of determinism and would love to prove it wrong so he would do the opposite of what is predicted. what would the prediction even be? it would be indefinite, it would be impossible to create a prediction until his choice is reveled, only then the deterministic nature of his choice could manifest. unless you believe he would be compelled to drink unknowingly against his will.
it is indeed a paradox like the time travel paradox

How do you know a rock is unintelligent?

since cars are made up of atoms, that means that a rock can drive you around just as well. anyone who thinks otherwise is a brainlet.

since bananas are made up of atoms, rocks are just as valid of a food item. anyone who disagrees is a brainlet.

since the earth is round, oranges have just as much mass. anyone who disagrees is a brainlet.

false equivalents are fun huh?

why did the brain name itself the brain? da fuq

You're defining free will as inherently magical if you're assuming that it has the force to somehow make decisions completely independent of the universe we live in. We are the universe, we're not independent of it. When you make a decision, you factor in all the nuances, and do the thing you want to do. I can't conceive of anything more free than that.

This is not a very intuitive concept because it feels like you have this magical control independent of anything else. But if you can conceive of that being an illusion, then you can also begin to understand why it makes sense.

...

Hahaha damn son I been baited

>unironically believes he's just like dirt
you just dumb boy

Yes both self awareness and free will are hypothetically emergent properties but determinism contradicts free will. The argument that atoms having determinism or even indeterminism means does mean higher order things can't. That logic doesn't work for free will but as it's true for determinism, free will is also false.

That would already be taken account, of his views. If those views affected him then the predictor wouldn't predict it... simple as. The counterfactual would simply be impossible. However there might be an extraneous factor to make him pick up the glass so even if he was stubborn he still would. You can't get away from it. And when I say taken account of I mean you would have to personally write on this blog the whole state of the universe all the factors that affect him and made the guy make the prediction. If the glass refused to pick up the water I could probably point out where the situation would be possible from the factors and their causal journey because if you can predict from initial states of whole universe then the guy has to pick it up given our bodies and brains are a causally connected and not independent of the universe. The only exception is randomness but that isn't free will either. Free will is a paradox within itself. It suggests an irreducible homunculus which cannot have evolved as a homeostatic/allostatic creature as animals like us Base all choices invariably and ultimately on those kinds of processes. That's why we can study it in the brain. It's causal. In a sense free will suggests lack of preference, lack of internal mechanisms e.g. brain. But then without that agency just becomes meaningless.

so atoms are self aware?

I mean point out where the situation would be impossible given the guy picking up the water after the other guy predicting it.

Emergent properties arise in systems. It depends on the complexity of the system. As far as we can tell atoms don't have self awareness and there's no reason to assume so.

so self awareness can arise from not self aware parts, but free will is absolutely impossible to arise from deterministic parts

Some people LACK control, can't stop, change, grow, learn.
You people are scary because you lack responsibility for your actions; hence you deny your free will to be civilized and intelligent, caring and considerate.

People be.lie.ve stupid and lies. People "think" intelligently. Stupid people don't think and don't care about their words. That's their problem and issue. Malnutrition, toxic environment, immature and negligent parents...all factors to some degree.

Yesss

how so?

Self awareness is an emergent property and determinism isn't. I.e. determinism exists at every hierarchical scale. Entities with free will also cannot have hierarchically reducible parts given that that suggests that the overall system behaviour is determined, predictable and not "free"

>Self awareness is an emergent property and determinism isn't.
how so?