/sffg/ - Science Fiction & Fantasy General

Halloween Edition
(No, that doesn't mean you should talk about Lovecraft.)

Previous Thread: Fantasy
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Science Fiction
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no

Just posting to say Miles Cameron is shit.

Carry on.

>How do they write different sorts of characters then and not make them out to be some kind of twisted/evil/insane/unreasonable caricature meant only to pose as a soundboard for their own beliefs?

Hi, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the fantasy genre, but I recommend you read a few of the books before continuing.

Nobody in fantasy writes interesting characters. The good guys are cyphers for the author, and the bad guys are caricatures that represent everything the author doesn't like. Some writers mix things up by giving the bad guys different sexual perversions to hate, but the overall effect is the same: you root for the good guys (assuming your political beliefs are in line with the authors) and they crush and kill the bad guys.

HOW DO I TURN OFF THE HALLOWEEN THEME

You just wait it out.

And yet extremely popular series that /sffg/ loves to hate have morally gray characters that are likable despite being reprehensible.

You only think they're reprehensible because you're an alt-right degenerate who thinks that people of different colors working together is a sign of villainy.

“A Wizard of Earthsea” – Ursula K. Le Guin

This young adult novel follows the story of Ged, a boy born on the island of Gont. He discovers that he has latent magical power which leads to his training as a wizard at the School on Roke Island. Ged as a youth is portrayed as impetuous and prideful with almost no counterbalancing qualities that usually inspire interest in a protagonist. Le Guin early and often foreshadows Ged’s future as a powerful and accomplished wizard. Through a mishap brought on by his ego at the School, he is changed into something of a wallflower who is hesitant to use his power. The rest of the book details his quest to set matters aright.

Throughout the Roke Island chapters, I was struck by how J.K. Rowling had taken this story and retold it far more skillfully, with a focus on the institution of the school. The result is a world bursting with detail. Hogwarts and its environs are vastly more engrossing than Roke Island, which is a watercolor sketch of a mostly uninhabited island that inexplicably hosts a school for wizards.

>The town of Thwil is not large, its high houses huddling close over a few steep narrow streets.
That’s the description of the town surrounding the School.
>In the hot sunlit pastures yellow flowers bloomed. “Sparkweed,” said Jasper. “They grow where the wind dropped the ashes of burning Ilien, when Erreth-Akbe defended the Inward Isles from the Firelord.”
This is Le Guin’s attempt at imbuing Roke with lore and texture. The reference in the text is as stark and disconnected as my quote: the proper nouns are given no other introduction or exposition. This is a common event throughout the narrative.

>The narrow path had opened suddenly onto the edge of a great black lake. Perched atop a high mountain on the other side, its windows sparkling in the starry sky, was a vast castle with many turrets and towers.
There’s nothing spectacular here in Rowling’s initial description of Hogwarts: you or I might have written just as compellingly. However, the ideas leading the reader to this point are the tantalizing bits: the owls bringing letters; the visit from a giant; the shopping trip to Diagon Alley; the train ride from Platform 9-3/4; what new mysteries does Hogwarts contain? In contrast, goatherd Ged has abandoned a laconic wizard and taken a ride on a galley through a gale.

To propel Ged out of his angst-ridden funk after his mishap at school and back into narrative motion, Le Guin has this shaky teen wizard decide to face down an island of dragons. He wins but he doesn’t have to face anything half as dangerous as Tolkien’s Smaug.
>“ Revenge!” he snorted, and the light of his eyes lit the hall from floor to ceiling like scarlet lightning. “Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons’ sons that dare approach me? I kill where I wish and none dare resist. I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong, Thief in the Shadows!” he gloated. “My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!”

Le Guin’s version:
>When he spoke the dragon’s name it was as if he held the huge being on a fine, thin leash, tightening it on his throat. He could feel the ancient malice and experience of men in the dragon’s gaze that rested on him, he could see the steel talons each as long as a man’s forearm, and the stone-hard hide, and the withering fire that lurked in the dragon’s throat: and yet always the leash tightened, tightened.
>He spoke again: “Yevaud! Swear by your name that you and your sons will never come to the Archipelago.”
>Flames broke suddenly bright and loud from the dragon’s jaws, and he said, “I swear it by my name!”

Do you not like Knights magic dragons n shiieeet

boring book dropped 50 pages in

The character of Ged is generic superhero trash: he has an innate universal power that others do not and cannot have; his friends exist merely to serve him in some capacity. The transformative trauma is a poor disguise for writing the protagonist as an awkward angsty teenager so the comic book audience can more easily picture themselves as Ged. He has no believable qualities other than the willingness to grow his power. The book reads like a fantasy novel for Marxists, with the easy use of power justification for free food, lodging, travel, whatever you like from the poor normies who grovel at your feet: appropriately, the atmosphere is as cozy as a Soviet housing bloc.

>They, however, asked little of him, holding him in awe, partly because he was a wizard from the Isle of the Wise, and partly on account of his silence and his scarred face.
> He went in a rowboat with a couple of young fishermen of Low Torning, who wanted the honor of being his boatmen.
> When at last he came to Serd, the ship’s master of whom he asked passage out to Roke bowed as he answered, “A privilege to me, Lord Wizard, and an honor to my ship!”
> They offered him dinner at the buttery there in the Sea-Guild; a wizard seldom has to ask for his dinner.
> this old man, for fear and wonder of his wizardry, would have given the boat to Ged.
> “Lord Wizard! forgive my temerity, and honor us by accepting of us anything you may need for your voyage . . .”
>[older wizard friend speaking to Ged] “And if you defeat the thing, should there not be another there who will tell of it in the Archipelago, that the Deed may be known and sung? I know I can be of no use to you; yet I think I should go with you.”

The climax of the story comes when Ged comes to grips with his shadow for the second time which results in him becoming whole once more and somehow better for the experience. Ged’s character arc reeks of dead Jewish psychology: some of his attributes are ripped from him and his quest is to reassimilate them into a conscious whole while the therapy group applauds.. Hurray, an empty accomplishment that everyone can attain with no discernible outward effort or improvement.

>”The Hobbit” – J.R.R. Tolkien
>The Harry Potter series – J.K. Rowling
>The Chronicles of Narnia – C.S. Lewis

These are all tales that are more fantastically told while preparing the young reader with useful lessons for reality. Earthsea is Le Guin whispering in your ear, telling you that your mediocrity is really glory that the masses are too dull to comprehend. I wouldn’t recommend this novel or series to anyone.

jesus, do you honestly see what you're typing?

> he has an innate universal power that others do not and cannot have; his friends exist merely to serve him in some capacity.
>whispering in your ear, telling you that your mediocrity is really glory that the masses are too dull to comprehend.
But that's Harry Potter too

Where to start with Philip k Dick?
I was thinking Ubik or A Scanner Darkly maybe...
I've already seen Blade Runner. How much will it spoil Do Androids Dream?

>Where to start with Philip k Dick?
Nowhere
it's shit
Read some David Brin

No, because of the stupid Halloween CSS, but to address your point, all fantasy novels have politically-driven self-inserts as the protagonist characters. The only "morally gray" characters are ones where you don't understand or disagree with the author's political beliefs.

Aright, let's assume for the sake of argument that is the case: Rowling still wrote a much more entertaining novel with the same underlying concepts.

I disagree with your assessment, though. The Potter character does progress through much of the same arc but the friend characters are used to guide and remonstrate with him and ultimately to directly aid him. The Vetch character is a joke:
>don't summon bad things
>welp you summoned it
>hisashiburi desu ne
>I should follow you in case you need someone to compose your epic poem

The Potter series does have trouble defining a workable state of affairs between wizards and muggles but at least Rowling doesn't just designate them as serfs.

It's pretty different. And it depends what you're in the mood for, doesn't really matter what you start with. Ubik is insane. Androids Dream is a bit more normal. Scanner Darkly is his best novel

The Postman?
I'm a big linklater fan so that sounds like a good choice

Le Guin wasn't trying to offer the concentrated escapism Rowling has, counting it against her is retarded.

You are 125% wrong about this but I will delay my response until the skeletons return to their tombs.

>(No, that doesn't mean you should talk about Lovecraft.)
It does mean we should talk about A Night In The Lonesome October.
>Zelazny's last book is a super-chill Halloween Lovecraft Victorian pastiche that combines just about everything that made his books great
>dies at 58
>Le Guin out of nowhere decides not to ever write a good book again
>senilia ongoing after 40 years
Zelazny could still be alive, friends. He could still be alive and writing. Maybe he is, on a nearby shadow world.

>(No, that doesn't mean you should talk about Lovecraft.)
Isn't horror a kind of fantasy?

Is Ted Chiang and George Saunders worth reading ?

>You are 125% wrong about this but I will delay my response until the skeletons return to their tombs.

Fair enough. Thoughtful dissent is always appreciated.

I'm trying very hard not to reduce your comment to:
>hurrdurr Rowling was popular so worse than Earthsea
but you didn't give me much to use in your defense. Can you clarify what you mean?

In some cases, yes. I mostly wanted to have a joke at the expense of the porcine females who dream about Cthulian tentacles stroking the regions they can no longer reach with a washcloth.

>Can you clarify what you mean?
Your posts makes it clear that you think Rowling spending much of her books describing various magical candy Hogwarts has or whatnot makes her series superior, which is nonsense.

Are you saying that superior descriptive and plotting skill are somehow inferior in this special case? Why?

>superior descriptive and plotting skill
Rowling spends more time describing shiny toys for the children who read her books, but she is absolutely not more skillful than Le Guin at writing description. Not even close.

how bad is this?
i got this as a gift from a person i respect, which is about the only thing that keeps me from discarding it with no regrets

I'll admit I'm not well versed in Le Guin; I've read "The Left Hand of Darkness" and now "A Wizard of Earthsea" but her descriptions are, well, nondescript. Barely anything sticks to me from either novel. "Left Hand" had some cities and a Siberian taiga while "Wizard" spent a ton of time on a barely outlined dinghy. Mostly Le Guin seems to spend her time talking about feelings, which had me thinking about what some user said a few threads back.

Also, how is it somehow a bad thing to write colorfully for the intended market of the book? Are you implying Earthsea is meant for an adult audience?

for YA I thought it was pretty good

certainly an interesting premise

It isn't bad, it's a matter of personal preference. You (and probably the large majority of people) prefer Rowling's style and that's fine, but criticizing Le Guin for having a different style is ridiculous.

Lovecraft is fantasy and horror.

Hey, we have some new skeletons this year, don't we?

Less skill isn't a style. You're claiming she's doing something with less but you aren't providing examples.

>Is Ted Chiang worth reading?
Yes.

Left Hand is her worst good book, I say that here all the time. Sure The Telling is worse but it's worse than everything. City of Illusion, I'm telling you, or at least Dispossessed or Lathe. Left Hand of Darkness was only famous because it was the Ancillary Justice of its day.

Wizard of Earthsea is a very inward-focused story about gaining inner peace. It could have been told as a short story. Not meant to be a tour-de-force. Tombs of Atuan has a little more action if that's your forte. They are not long books.

Ted absolutely yes. And it's short.
Perhaps Ken Liu too.

I've heard Saunders is legit, brimming with negritude without being all muh slavery. Haven't read him yet. I should bump Imaro up the list and report back.

Is this the place to discuss H.P. Lovecraft?

I must say I just started reading his Complete Works and I'm surprised just how much I'm liking it. Really comfy.

I only like his stories that are close to fantasy or sci-fi.

Generally speaking his stories are better the further they are away from New England, so that he can be prevented from sperging out about the Boston skyline. I'm still mad about the ending of Kadath.

Everyone should read Cordwainer Smith's short stories. Weird but beautiful, as I like the idea of space ("the up and out") as somewhere that is going to turn your mind into pulp.

They are to all other SF as Mervyn Peake is to all other fantasy.

There was a fork in the road, we went with Tolkien and Asimov/Heinlein/etc. But we could have gone with Peake and Cordwainer Smith.

Interestingly Peake and Smith both spent a lot of time in China (back when it was cool) and weren't really involved with any other writers they get accidentally bracketed with who were just writing at the same time.

>compared to Peake
so he's boring trash, got it

You should both definitely check out Clark Ashton Smith, It's like Lovecraft snorted several levels of fantasy.

Don't be silly.

I think people that claim Le Guin is going senile are confusing it with her complete lack of real world experience which becomes more evident the more she comments on topics outside of college politics.

Why does he hate Korrasami so much?

>Korrasami

t. 24 year old user who has worked two jobs and moved once

>24 years old
>still hasn't written his sci-fi novel that takes place on a utopian planet where everyone has adopted your political beliefs, to their great benefit

It's like you don't even want to be featured by the BBC as one of this century's greatest authors.

To be fair even 24 year old anons know that bookstores don't have a infinite amount of space to store unsold books and eventually have replace them with more popular titles.

Le Guin didn't know this at 87.

Have you read any of her interviews?

Anyone here doing NaNoWriMo?
I'm considering writing some short stories, rather than a novel. I don't have nearly enough experience to justify any story longer than a few thousand words.

What are your guys' ideas?

>Have you read any of her interviews?
No
Quote about the bookstores having an infinite amount of space to store her books?

What's the "Jojo's Bizarre Adventure" of SFF?

I can't find it, but she mentions something similar in this blog post: bookviewcafe.com/blog/2015/06/01/up-the-amazon/

>Fading BSs must be replaced constantly by fresh ones in order to keep corporate profits up
>then trash and replace

What's the "Boku wa Mari no Naka" of SFF?

Not even joking about Mari, btw. I'm genuinely curious.

Every single point I see in this post is accurate. Amazon essentially monopolises the book market and allows people to post worse than fanfic rubbish as an actual book.

And of course, people will only buy the next new thing and there comes a point where the small proportion of readers in the population has reached saturation point.

Indeed, the only bookstore that will outlast the cycle of artificial scarcity are pirated books which are no different to library books except that they will outlast time and can be distributed infinitely.

>allows people to post worse than fanfic rubbish as an actual book.

What the actual fuck are you smoking, we're in the thread were 90% of Veeky Forums think that about us... and we think that about pulps, to bad there's no pulp general so they can think that about Penny dreadfuls.

Can't we enjoy them both?

At least try and speak english if you're gonna post on Veeky Forums

I'm pretty sure murdering children is reprehensible to everybody with a soul.

It isn't murder, Its postnatal abortion.

Bullying is not okay, user.

Geder pls

Well, I certainly do.

I didn't mean it like that, its just I put off reading his stuff because I saw when it was from and where it was published and wrongly assumed it would be like everything else from that period.

But he was just doing his own thing it turns out.

Interesting man too, invented modern psychological warfare, CIA stuff, advised JFK etc. .

you know what I miss?

>enjoying writing and wanting to do it
>reading things I actually like instead of trash I need to trudge through to bide my time until more books come out

Read a portion of it and find out? It's not like you have to go out of your way to buy it and hope it is good. You already have it so the least you could do is read a couple chapters and make at least a first impression with the book instead of asking this board's judgement

What is YA

What are some interesting fantasy stories that follow a villain?

Young
Adult

>You'll never save SFF because every time you try to work with an idea you realize it's shit and aren't creative enough to work it up

What is some decent introduction books for Science Fiction or Fantasy? Would prefer stand alone books but series are fine.

I'd like to get into the genres but have no clue where to start. I'm pretty new to reading novels in general tbqh

Godspeaker, especially the first book.
Coldfire isn't exclusively villain perspective but the villain is so good
Dagger and Coin is dragged down by the villain getting PoV

Are you saying that baby-eaters don't have souls?

lesswrong.com/lw/y5/the_babyeating_aliens_18/

Forgot Black Company, which is really the go to example.

...

Coldfire is so good. Got the books at random from a used bookstore because I vaguely remembered somebody on here recommended it, and I ended up really enjoying it.

As to Dagger and Coin, I think Abraham is trying to humanize Lord Regent Autismo, but is failing really hard at it. The series would be massively improved if it was just Banker Girl, Mercenary and the young nobleman/his mom.

>not literature

Agreed.
A random user recommended it and I found it well written and enjoyable.

Geder did nothing wrong and that the entire plot was probably the insane dreamings of his comatose mind.

I don't know anything about Le Guin, except the Lathe Of Heaven is a handsome little book, with good prose, and some Eastern profundity here and there. It's like a less disjointed, more poetic PKD novel.

This book is basically the pussy is too tight. The novel.

Some roastie breeks was trying to sample vagina from told him that her pussy was too tight. So he wrote an entire book dedicated to her pussy, in hopes of loosening it for his entry.

Place your bets.
There's going to be blood, boys.

>expect the book to be as good as the rest of them or at worst Night Angel tier
>instead, it's about Breeks' sex problems
>the only interesting part of the book is essentially Gavin and assassin girl
>too bad Gavin only gets about 1% of the screen time

...

Just filter them ffs, it's a shitposter forcing us to suffer because he didn't get to write essays in college. With added political trolling!

Thankfully, tripfags are easy to filter

Just reread Year of the Griffin by Diana Wynne Jones
Love that book

Does anyone know what the holography technique in The Wall Of Storms us called? It's described by one of the PoV characters as polishing over depressions on a mirror and then reflecting light off it to project a static hologram

It was chart user... I was shilling that book for years.

Doesn't that mean you will filter the thread if they make it?

It's cliche and you've already seen the movies, but read LOTR anyway. For sci fi, read Foundation.

What's some good generic Orc/Elves/Dwarves type fantasy

(not LOTR or related)

Well, I can't comment, except to say Donkey is being mischievous. I haven't read any Le Guin outside of Lathe, but I will read The Dispossessed before Christmas, because I have read enough from her to see that she can write well about interesting ideas. Is there layers of philosophical meaning and rereadability in Rowling? I don't know, I've never read Harry Potter, because I was reading Discworld. I never saw the movies either. Although Rowling is a milf whereas Le Guin isn't, but neither will appear on mompov anytime soon.

>Love that book

>ywn attend griffin school

How can he recover from this?

No I just tested it.

Tripcode IGORsW/P/E posted 3 hours ago according to the archives so I used this tripcode as a test subject.

Quads confirm read LOTR.

What am I looking at?

TL:DR version:
Furry who likes donkey dick has shit taste in literature.
Now you know everything about him you can filter without worries.