The real reason you can't travel back in time

This is going to be a two parter at least. Please be patient for the entire first OP to be released before posting thoughts.

had this realization sometime ago. I've thought about and played with the idea of time travel throughout my life and I realized a fallacy that almost no one ever seems to notice. I looked it up to see if anyone else realized it and there was nothing written about it.

Then I thought perhaps it was already refuted a long time ago and that's why it never comes up. Turns out that isn't the case either, or else the refutation would be all over the place.

I think I really have something here.

Often the explanation why we can't go back in time involves speaking about light speed, etc. But the actual problem is when people imagine going back in time, they unknowingly create a second 'them'. Even scientists and theoretical physicists seem to overlook this fallacy.

So when we travel forwards in time, like during space travel, because of gravity, speed, etc. you can think of it as if we are slowing down, and everyone on earth in the normal time stream is going faster (this isn't a technically perfect or correct explanation but it's the best way to make the point I'm getting at.) Our atoms, molecules, 'us' do not leave the universe, don't cease to exist, and don't change form drastically, instead we age, relatively, slower than someone in a different time stream.

However, when people think of going back in time they don't apply the same logic that applies to the very real, travelling forwards in time. They personalize it and picture themselves as being themselves, going back in time, as a human. In other words, they picture time reversing streams for only them, they have their own separate time stream now, apart from the universe, and effectively clone themselves.

(Continued Below)

(Continued)

Let me explain. If you went back in time, the atoms, molecules etc. that make you, don't suddenly cease to exist. Just like in the real life version of being able to travel slightly into the future, two you’s don’t exist, you don’t suddenly split in two, you can’t meet the future you because the future you and the you of now are the same. The universe doesn’t gain or lose atoms/information just because you’re travelling through time.

So the real reason why you can’t go back in time is this: The atoms etc. that are ‘you’ are scattered, and are not in the form of ‘you’ when you go back beyond the point of your birth. Also, your brain can only perceive going forward in time (this is apparent by every day experience and no known cases or perceivable cases to prove it otherwise.) Therefore, even if you WERE travelling backwards in time, you would perceive yourself as going forwards in time.

Another way of putting this, is that travelling to the past could never happen, because it would only be a ‘reversal’ of time, that which has already happened. For you to travel backwards in your forward state, there would have to now be a bending of time only for you, and you couldn’t exist in the same universe because ‘you’ already exist in there. There is no reason or mechanism to suppose that there can be two you’s existing in the same universe. Even if ‘you’ are just scattered atoms throughout the cosmos, your double existence would theoretically displace the entire universe.

And in the other half the ‘you’ who left the present, would leave a vacuum of ‘you’ for the entire present to future universe. ‘You’ would have to POP out of the present universe, and cease to exist, in order to exist in the past in your present form.

(Continued below)

And if you could bend time and exist in the past, as a double of yourself, how could you possible interact with the past universe? How could you touch it? As mentioned before, in order to travel to the past, in your present form, and not as a reversal of your present state (in a second time stream in other words) you would have to have time bent personally for you, if that was the case, you’d be moving in the opposite direction in time as the rest of the universe. Etc. etc.

You get the point. Real going backwards in time, is time reversal, and beyond your birth you’d be an unintelligent mass of scattered atoms. And any point where you were alive, you wouldn’t even be aware you were going backwards in time. Freaky, but I think, possible.

We could in fact be timeless right now, and only experiencing time because of the brain, who knows, I don’t.

(OP finished.)

We can't travel back in time because traveling back in time implies literally >traveling< to place XYZ. XYZ doesn't physically exist anywhere.

You're a retard.

I'm sorry but you've added nothing to this discussion.

sounds interesting

But he's correct, and you're shitting directly into our brains.

You seem to think you're the first person to think about these things, OP.

Time travel into the past would require harnessing wormholes, which we don't know much about. And if that were possible, there are paradoxes involved (see:grandfather paradox).

Also, if it were possible, then we probably would have been living amongst time travellers throughout history,

just remember you will have to fight for your ideas, just like the guy with the multi-universe theories

"You seem to think you're the first person to think about these things, OP."

Not at all. I'm just curious why it never comes up in discussion. I do think it's a point that's often overlooked so by 'on to something' I don't mean I think I'm special or etc. if that's what you're reading into it.

"Time travel into the past would require harnessing wormholes, which we don't know much about. And if that were possible, there are paradoxes involved (see:grandfather paradox).

Also, if it were possible, then we probably would have been living amongst time travellers throughout history,"

These things have come up when I play with the idea of time travel, speaking with a friend etc. I'm not unaware of them. The grandfather paradox is actually an example of overlooking the fallacy I brought up.

The grandfather paradox can't exist, due to the 'no two you's' being able to exist in time at the same time.

Sometimes I pray that they invent technology to prevent anyone under 30 from posting on serious forums. Or at the very least a teenager filter, so the tiresome 'I'm too cool and you're stupid' comments would go away.

Every single adult who sees comments like 'you're sh*ting into our brains' and 'you're a retard' instantly recognizes that the person saying that, has absolutely nothing to say, and is just being a kid.

If you're an adult saying these kinds of things, it's time to consider stopping, if just to stop wasting your own time.

>Also, your brain can only perceive going forward in time (this is apparent by every day experience and no known cases or perceivable cases to prove it otherwise.) Therefore, even if you WERE travelling backwards in time, you would perceive yourself as going forwards in time.
This is pretty badly stated. Just because it has never happened doesn't make it a good case that it is literally impossible for our brains. Our brains function perfectly fine even when time dilated, so it's entirely possible our brains would be just fine going back in time, although this is does depend almost entirely on how you do it.
>you couldn’t exist in the same universe because ‘you’ already exist in there. There is no reason or mechanism to suppose that there can be two you’s existing in the same universe. Even if ‘you’ are just scattered atoms throughout the cosmos, your double existence would theoretically displace the entire universe.
This, also, is dumb and makes no sense. Why should the other me hold any significance to me? He's completely separate from me, just like any other human, why can't I exist in the same universe as him? All we truly share is DNA. What the hell is this 'youness' and why is it unique?

Can you simplify your theory in a few sentences or less?

>it's an "OP comes up with an idea out of his ass to disprove something" thread
Not science, did not read. Please don't post again.

You're misunderstanding the concept. The point is that there wouldn't be two you's.

The atoms etc. that are you, still exist in the past, even though they aren't together in the present form.

There wouldn't be a separate you. That's actually the fallacy I'm describing here.

If someone goes back in the time, from the point of view of the past, another, older you just materializes out of nowhere. A completely separate second set of atoms. What you seem to be describing is rewinding time for EVERYTHING, which no one gives a shit about because everyone agrees it would be useless because no one would remember anything.

It would take me a long time, but probably.

K I'm just going to start ignoring people like you, who have absolutely nothing to say. If you didn't want to read it, why waste your and my time by replying to something you haven't even read.

That's exactly the point. There is no reason to suppose that a second you would materialize out of nowhere.

Going back in time would, I'm arguing, by necessity have to be a reversal of time, actual travel would be impossible in the science fiction sense we imagine it. We personalize it when we think about it because we'd like to 'travel' there but other than personal reasons, there is no actual reason to think we could do it that way.

>The grandfather paradox can't exist, due to the 'no two you's' being able to exist in time at the same time.
But we don't know that this wouldn't be possible.

I understand your argument about time being transient and all, but until we discover wormholes and realize their full potential, we'll never know whether it's possible or not.

Also, I think it's worth noting that the the 2yo "you" is not the same as the current "you", yet they exist in the same universe.

There's no actual reason to believe one person could go back in time anymore than the universe could rewind time, although I'll concede that the latter is a little happier when it comes to Occam's razor.

You seem to be pointing out implications of a form of time travel that no one else actually considers, because, as I said before, while it's certainly consistent it's not very useful for anything so nobody really cares.

" understand your argument about time being transient and all, but until we discover wormholes and realize their full potential, we'll never know whether it's possible or not."

That may be true.

"Also, I think it's worth noting that the the 2yo "you" is not the same as the current "you", yet they exist in the same universe."

That is definitely a good point and worth noting, that not every aspect of yourself remains consistent. (We lose skin cells etc.) But the stuff that makes you, you, for the entirety of your existence in this present form (as a conscious human) is still a finite amount of 'stuff' that already existed in a different form both before, and then again after, you stop being alive as a human.

So it still holds that there shouldn't be a displacement of 'you' when you attempt to travel in either direction in space-time. And we know that there isn't when you travel forwards (as this is entirely possible) so what I'm saying here, is that there shouldn't be when you travel backward either.

>But the stuff that makes you, you, for the entirety of your existence in this present form (as a conscious human) is still a finite amount of 'stuff' that already existed in a different form both before, and then again after, you stop being alive as a human.
But that material wouldn't be displaced, any more than material is displaced as you grow older. It would still exist in the same universe, only in a different time -- same as always. However, I see what you mean about duplicate particles existing at the same time, and I'm not even qualified to talk about that shit.

I'm actually mostly in agreement with you. Even if it were possible, I think time travel into the past is highly unlikely. We'll essentially have to get to the point where we can control gravity to even begin to explore this.

Btw, I see you might be new, so protip: when you quote someone, use ">" before the quote instead of quotations. It's easier that way.

not the guy you were replying to but i think i can boil down what your saying to
>you can't travel back in time because you're a part of it

therefore pseudo backwards time travel could be possible if universal time remained intact
imagine that you going back to the past is now the present, the previous 'present' would cease to exist the moment you enter a representation of the past

It could exist when everyone's memories are merged together into a physical space we can explore but not interact with

I'm well over 30, I respond only as maturely as the subject deserves.

At this point I will proceed to write non sense because I have nothing better to do :D
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Point a of intersection.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

You can't travel backwards in time because it no longer exists. You only have the memory of that moment registered. You cannot relive something exactly as it happened again with prior knowledge. Same with the future, the moment it is no longer the present, it becomes the past.As for time travel possibility, to a certain extent, you could theoretically travel to a different time if you could move faster than light.

Retrograde time travel ain't possible kid.
Traveling to another universe that happens to seem like our past may be possible ( big may kek ), but our past ?
Fat chance.

Time travel to the past is most likely not possible. All it takes is logic to prove. If you go into the past to affect things in the present you'd need a set of logic/physical laws to describe the phenomenon (inb4 multiverse theory). Such logic cannot exist simultaneously with our normal forward arrow of time physical laws, since they would contradict one another.

If you did somehow travel back into the past, you most likely would not comprehend it. You'd also probably have no memory of it and the present/future. Therefore, the concept of time travel to the past is moot and cannot exist logically.

QED.

Lets just say megaverse theory is correct. Would it be theoretically possible to travel to a universe almost identical to ours? If so would it be possible to arrive at an earlier moment than our world was at when we left it? Different universe different molecules.

Time simply does not exist.

Then what the fuck is a clock?

>universal time remained intact

as we have known for over a century now, there is no such thing as 'universal time'.

What I gathered is that you can't go back in time because you would be adding mass to the universe, creating mass from nothing which violates the basic laws of physics.

Not really sure why this took 20 paragraphs to say.

is this an assumption or can you deductively proof that

OP, - if i might interject - i consider those truths to be what i think of as sliders. im not well into formal group theory yet but i would say analogous operations to your example in time travel are

>color manipulation interface interactions over time in photoediting ie photoshop, digital audio workstation software 2d sliders ie le linear eq freq translation over the whole song meme, ... [left as an exercise to the reader]

the op doesn't say retrograde time travel is possible, it's always a good idea to read something before answering it

That's actually a great question and I'd really have to think about it. I suppose it would depend on the nature of the megaverse and how it operated.

Since we don't know if or how a megaverse would work, and there is no standard model for that hypothesis (that I'm aware of), I suppose it could in some model be a possibility.

And not in others, for example the other universes could be a dimensional extension of our own universe, rather than parallels, etc.

It would definitely be cool to think about. Thanks for the comment and adding to the discussion.

not time in the usual sense but a continuous line of cause and effect with no end or beginning
nothing occurs as a result of something happening in the future or without a cause

how does this not exist?

I'm certain your thoughts could be summarised in less that 32 words.

This theory was literally explained -- albeit Barney style -- in the Back to the Future movie series.

Some people just speak like that. Annoys some, helps others, and even after that much explanation, other people still need more to fully get what's being said. Just like being in a classroom. Maybe your criticism could be helpful in some way, but, it might actually not be for other readers.

I don't find it helpful to be that overly critical of someone's op. It's sort of off topic and 'telling you how you SHOULD express yourself' is sort of awkward coming from a stranger. It's not the best received information usually. Unsolicited advice, especially off topic, and making it personal, like how about someone writes or speaks, I mean, not really something anyone is looking for unless asked for.

If you're trying to be helpful, there are better ways to do it that are said in a more helpful instead of instantly judgmental of a stranger, that the person on the receiving end, would be more likely to hear and take your advice.

This sort of overly pedantic off topic response is way to common on the internet. Such rudeness is more rare in person. My unsolicited advice to you, would be to try and consider the person as though they were a really there with you in person, and apply the rules of politeness you would accordingly. The thread isn't addressed specifically to you, so it's not like their way of speaking was forced on you, you could have decided not to read at all if it was that bothersome to you.

Ever seen the movie Primer?

Since we can only go forward in time I imagine a time travel device would work like pic related

You can go back in time if you use a time machine and sit inside it, and the time machine twitches the atoms of the air in the past with the atoms of the air in present. Checkmate

Why hasn't anyone in this thread watched steinsgate? It explains time travel perfectly.

Mate traveling backwards in time is impossible because you cant create a second you. It doesnt work that way. We as 3 dimensional creatures based on 3 physics can not go backwards simply because that requires

A. Reversing entropy which requires more than infinite energy because we create energy by pushing entropy foward and

B. Doing this would rewind the positions of all particles in the universe, including the ones in your head and the time machine itself. This makes it absolutely pointless regardless and makes travel before the time machine's initial moment of activation impossible. Though thats meaningless regardless because of point A.

Then time travel is impossible because waiting for the future to happen isn't traveling forward. That's just time capsule shit.

We travel forward because we follow the flow of entropy. If entropy flowed backwards we would travel backwards. Im not saying time travel is possible im saying its the opposite. I just think youre over complicating the matter and trying to clarify.

You wanna jump into universe 2?
There might not even be an earth there. The time machine runs out of fuel before that too.

Just set your Alcubierre Drive to high, pop some negative energy into the black hole at 350°F for 30min and presto! time travel! And don't forget to occasionally add in some god particles for flavor!

Isn't that what the OP just said?

TL:DR causality

Couldn't we already rule out travelling backwards in time? If it was somehow possible people would have prevented World War 1/2 and other events.

light has fucking

NOTHING

to do with time.


and if you think it does you're fucking retarded.

What reason is there for the present to be physically recreated elsewhere in the universe?

FINALLY!!

I was starting to lose the last hope I had for sci. Thank you for pointing out the evident response to this retarded post.

> Thermodynamics

Fucking brainlets.

>prevented World War 1/2
ppfffffft!! who cares! I could go back in time and bang Madonna while she was still hot!
Also something about many worlds interpretation and yadda yadda yadda there has already been every time traveler visiting this time line at any point between now and the beginning of time.

I think you're horribly confused about something, but I can't follow your reasoning well enough to determine exactly what that is.

>So when we travel forwards in time, like during space travel, because of gravity, speed, etc. you can think of it as if we are slowing down
>However, when people think of going back in time they don't apply the same logic that applies to the very real, travelling forwards in time.
Right, but there are other, more coherent ways of looking at time travel than "time running backwards".

>Let me explain. If you went back in time, the atoms, molecules etc. that make you, don't suddenly cease to exist.
From the perspective of an outside observer, yes, you did disappear.

>Just like in the real life version of being able to travel slightly into the future, two you’s don’t exist,
Multiplicity requires backwards travel. That doesn't make it impossible, just different from forward travel.

>So the real reason why you can’t go back in time is this: The atoms etc. that are ‘you’ are scattered, and are not in the form of ‘you’ when you go back beyond the point of your birth.
Hang on, that's not right.
If you went through a time machine to before your birth than the "younger" you wouldn't exist yet, but the older you definitely would. You still had a birth and a childhood and entered a time machine, and all those things happened in your own past. That's what the whole point of the time machine was.

>Another way of putting this, is that travelling to the past could never happen, because it would only be a ‘reversal’ of time
I can understand that all your points stem from this, but I don't know why you think this is true.
Fully "reversing" time doesn't actually require a time machine at all, in the same way as looking at the back of an object doesn't change its shape. You aren't actually changing anything, you're just looking at things in the opposite direction. A time machine allows for more than that.

>unironically believing in the big crunch