Anyone here fall for the medicine meme?

Not so much administration would be really time saving for medicine...

I'm a doctor, I had the same mindset you describe and still have to some degree. But recently I needed a small operation and I can only tell you once the privilege of youthful health vanishes you will feel deep gratitude for high-quality healthcare.

You're a child if you think a computer could do what a doctor can.

I get that the power a doctor has makes a lot of people uneasy, also that the spergs here out of their special superiority-inferiority-"all science is physics or stamp collecting" mentality can't cope with the possibility that people may be smarter and work harder than them.

an ER doctor gave me a head CT because i was a little nauseous and dizzy, and i found out that you are absolutely not supposed to get a CT scan unless you were in a fucking car accident and blacked out or something. I hate doctors. Most don't give a shit about the patients. I'm probably going to sue him. how is that even legal to do?

>you are absolutely not supposed to get a CT scan unless you were in a fucking car accident and blacked out or something

That's complete bullshit. I hate patients like you. You're not special. You don't know shit. Just have the humility to accept that you don't know anything about the stuff smarter people than you study for a decade to master. It's not hard. Once you're 20 you will have learned that subject-specific knowledge is something that exists.

Who can memorize thousands of patterns and relations between symptoms and causes using past data better, a computer or a human?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray#Adverse_effects

>A head CT scan (1.5mSv, 64mGy)[40] that is performed once with and once without contrast agent, would be equivalent to 40 years of background radiation to the head.

>Diagnostic X-rays (primarily from CT scans due to the large dose used) increase the risk of developmental problems and cancer in those exposed.[28][29][30] X-rays are classified as a carcinogen by both the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer and the U.S. government.[23][31] It is estimated that 0.4% of current cancers in the United States are due to computed tomography (CT scans) performed in the past and that this may increase to as high as 1.5-2% with 2007 rates of CT usage.[32]

>Avoiding unnecessary X-rays (especially CT scans) reduces radiation dose and any associated cancer risk.[44]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computed_tomography_of_the_head#Indications

>Even in emergency situations, when a head injury is minor as determined by a physician's evaluation and based on established guidelines, CT of the head should be avoided for adults and delayed pending clinical observation in the emergency department for children.[5] Many people visit emergency departments for minor head injuries. CT scans of the head can confirm a diagnosis of skull fracture or brain bleeding, but even in the emergency room such things are uncommon and not minor injuries so CT of the head is usually not necessary.[5] Clinical trials have shown the efficacy and safety of using CT of the head in emergency settings only when indicated, which would be at the indication of evidence-based guidelines following the physical examination and a review of the patient's history.[5]

>Concussion is not a routine indication for having brain CT or brain MRI and can be diagnosed by a healthcare provider trained to manage concussions.[6]

You're literally wrong. You pieces of shit don't care about patients at all.

there's fucking nothing you can quote off the internet that can compensate for that fact that YOU ARE NOT A DOCTOR AND YOU DO NOT KNOW JACK FUCKING SHIT.

lol how ridiculous an argument

>well ur not a doctor so none of that stuff matters!!

fuck off retard. go give people cancer that wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. you're a fucking piece of garbage.

Lol. Doctors are so butthurt all the time. I would be too if I had to spend all my time interacting with plebs.

I'm so glad I chose to go into biology research instead so I can interact with people who actually like talking about science.

>CT scans of the head can confirm a diagnosis of skull fracture or brain bleeding, but even in the emergency room such things are uncommon and not minor injuries so CT of the head is usually not necessary.

I like how this sentence implies that CT scans are only necessary for minor injuries.

it's saying that skull fracture and brain bleeding are not minor injuries but are uncommon so coming to the ER for a head injury does not warrant a CT scan. This is why is pissed.

I don't think and is the same guy, because that would be fucking ridiculous.

As pointed out, it's complete bullshit that CTs are only indicated for car accident victims with blackouts. Your ER doc was either the biggest moron that has ever happened upon the field of medicine, or he had some background information about you that indicated that a caput CT was necessary. Your two listed symptoms present in almost all acute brain-related pathologies and traumas, so it was probably a defensible decision. Note that I'm not saying that imaging diagnostics isn't being overused in general.

Also, from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation, the average annual background radiation is 3.01 mSv worldwide and 6.24 mSv in the united states. The math doesn't add up even if you take into account that the head has under 1/10 the weight of the body.

I'm not a native English speaker myself, but can you really argue that the sentence isn't badly written? If I knew nothing about anything except the English language, I would think that CT scans of the head would only be necessary for minor injuries after reading it.

>Your two listed symptoms present in almost all acute brain-related pathologies and traumas

Minor concussions will bring with them some nausea and dizziness days, even weeks later. Those are not indications for a CT study and the doctor who ordered that wasn't thinking straight.. It's clear if someone has had an injury so great that they have a skull fracture and a hematoma. I had a minor concussion when I was 13. I didn't go to the ER to get a CT scan for it because that would be ridiculously unnecessary.

but yes

>Also, from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation, the average annual background radiation is 3.01 mSv worldwide and 6.24 mSv in the united states. The math doesn't add up even if you take into account that the head has under 1/10 the weight of the body.

that 40 years thing makes no sense. a CT head study is like what you'd get to your head in 8 months, not 40 years. Maybe they're trying to compare your natural head dose to your natural whole body dose and are getting 40 years from 2 CT scans.

A comouter can't even rrliably read a chest xray. You have no idea about the tremendous variability of symptoms in different people.

Two randomly selected radiologists will only give similar diagnoses to the same X-ray image 60 % of the time (heard from a PhD radiologist in a lecture, can't be assed to search for sources).

With the current improvements in neural networks, I'd be surprised if programs don't surpass radiologists at image interpretation real soon.

When it comes to diagnoses, the current program success rate is around 90 % while human doctors still hover around 50 %.

I'm studying to become a medical doctor, but I have no doubt that programs could easily outperform us in this field if only somebody would invest in it. I think I'm really safe in my job though, seeing as--excepting power storage technology--the medical field is probably the slowest discipline to incorporate new ideas and technologies. Look at the discovery of penicillin, or hell, look at the discovery of washing your hands. Both of these weren't incorporated into medicine until decades after being discovered.

There's also the whole irrational "hurpa durpa humans are much more trustworthy and accurate than machines" mentality that most people--intelligent or not--have, and this is especially prominent in the medical field. Retards will be retards regardless of intelligence.

I'm an average IQ cuckboy, IQ 110-120. Is it possible to grind my way into med school?

>You have no idea about the tremendous variability of symptoms in different people.

tremendous variability works in favour of computers and against humans.

Let me tell you a couple of stories from my med class.

In the second year we had a mandatory epidemiology seminar. In it, one of my fellow students (a girl in this case) asked the professor leading the seminar how to divide one number by another.

In the third year, a male student said he'd heard someone get pregnant from swallowing sperm, and asked our embryology professor if this was possible.

Typing this out, and assuming you have no med school experience, I realize that it sounds ridiculous and you'd almost have to be a moron to believe it, but it's really true.

I'm not in a third world shithole either; there are no admission interviews, you compete on high school grades only. Even if you got only A's, you're still not guaranteed to get accepted, and you might have to wait for a year or more.

For many reasons, including the examples above, I believe that most people can attain a degree in whatever field they like. The only exception would be if you were clinically retarded.

>It's clear if someone has had an injury so great that they have a skull fracture and a hematoma.
No it isn't. What the hell are you talking about?

Yea I do actually have some clinical experience. Worked in hospitals and clinics before. And yea those accusations sound very out of this world.

Adding to this, medicine is a really procedural field. You don't really need to understand abstract concepts or excel at anything really, you just need to be able to plug'n'chug a lot of information. The first years of med school is a fucking drag, but it gets more interesting afterwards, when you can actually use other aspects of your brain than long term memory. I'd recommend challenging yourself with other mental activities the first few years, e.g. take up some maths or logic to get more well-rounded.

So what you're saying that the course is full of plug and chuggers that grind their way into medical school to continue plug and chugging.

So do you think you can divide one number by another, or at the very least explain what dividing one number by another actually means? If the answer is yes, then yes, you can study medicine.

I realize I slightly misread your question; it wasn't if you would be able to study medicine, it was whether you'd be able to get good enough grades to get accepted into med school. Even so, 90 IQ people can get good enough grades to get into med school, so with your advantage it should be relatively easier for you.

as usual, just another bunch of butthurt engineers in this thread

Yea, thing is, none of my family members are doctors, so sometimes it gets to a point where people start claiming that I just don't have the brilliant mind of a doctor, and whatever I do to fight against the fact will work against me. It's this family stigma that has started to knaw onto my motivation so far. Which is why I started to ask this question.

>I'm not in a third world shithole either; there are no admission interviews, you compete on high school grades only. Even if you got only A's, you're still not guaranteed to get accepted, and you might have to wait for a year or more.

Ah that makes sense. That's probably because you live outside the United States, which has stricter standards for medical school admission.

Can you give a source for the neural network x-ray system?

Last time I saw something about a CTPA reading program, it had great sensitivity but shocking specificity (ie a huge number of false positives) and would have done far more damage than good in the real world.

Yes, and this is why many if not the majority of doctors worldwide aren't very good at their jobs. In order to get good at your job, you'll need to train your inductive and deductive skills, logic, maths and statistical skills on your own.

However, there are also many specialties in which having the aforementioned skills isn't so important, it depends on what you want to do. If you want to become e.g. an orthopedic surgeon these skills won't help you (directly at least), you'd be better off doing strength training and honing your fine motor skills.

My bad, I worded that badly.

I was talking about two different things.

The first one was just me speculating about how neural networks will probably own us at medical image interpretation in the foreseeable future.

The second one was a study in which they tested a prototype program's ability to make accurate diagnoses (probably from a list of symptoms and medical history), in which the program's success rate was 90 % as compared to the human 50 % rate. I still can't be assed to look for the source, but maybe another user could be helpful (it was posted a lot say... 6 months ago?). I guess google might work too.

None of my family members are doctors either. My mother used to be a nurse, and due to knowing a bit about her job from a young age because I was with her at work a couple of times, I swore never to get involved with the medical industry. Turns out I'm a liar.

Brilliant mind of a doctor? You've got to be fucking shitting me. That's just too funny.

In all seriousness, don't cuck yourself by applying some value to a number that was designed to ascertain whether or not you are retarded by seeing how good you are at finding patterns in visual images in a limited timespan, (extremely close to) nothing in the real world works like that. Measuring intelligence by IQ is like measuring how long you can hold your breath by seeing how high you can jump.

If there's one thing I've learned in my studies, it's that motivation is a concept that doesn't apply to me, or maybe rather that I am always demotivated but I just do the work. All you need is will. It's not about being motivated or unmotivated, it is about doing it or not doing it.

Hello /med/! My username is "feynman" and I'm creating a discord for physicians, nursing, premed, and life sciences majors. Non-life science majors are welcome too. For people who don't know discord, it's a free chat platform that uses text and voice.

Perm link:
discord.gg/jK4U7bk

MDs in research > surgeons > primary care doctors (technicians)

what the fuck

There's not a physician shortage. Our health system is just stupidly structured around specialties. Once the new gen of nurse practitioners has more than 2 lobbyists in Congress compared to the massive ama things will be good. Except maybe for physicians thinking they're going to be rich.

As a foreign physician going to American, this is bunk. There is a huge physician shortage in the US because of lack of graduates due to the few medical schools there are in the US.

The fact that we need higher scores is entirely because we come from unknown universities with unknown qualifications and often times the best way to back that up ends up being through good scores.

I can tell you we have it easier than the Americans who study "medicine" in those Caribbean diploma mills at least.

Unfortunately, Medicine requires a very large base of knowledge that isn't really taught beforehand. Once you get out of basic sciences you'll see how much logic you actually need to be a good physician.

But yes, fuck those teachers. Unfortunately most of them come from a time where technology wasn't readily available to check these facts so their only recourse was to memorize it. The best physicians now-a-days are those that are able to utilize technology to the maximum benefit. There is literally no excuse for a physician to be outdated in a world with instant internet access wherever you go.

Me.

The only thing I regret is that I was born in the new times when hating people that educated themselves for decades to help you and suing them is common practice.

Fuck postmodernism

>Fuck postmodernism
What did he mean by this

Thanks man. I really needed that. I feel like I'm just intentionally cucking myself thinking I'm just too stupid to be a doctor. I'm doing quite well now, I'm just worried I just slam a wall finding out I can't do it because I'm just too stupid for it, instead of anything else.

I know plenty of physicians who lack natural intelligence and more than make up for it through constant reviewing and being very perfectionist.

Wouldn't recommend that rout, though. Your profession would be very exhausting.

Fucking epidemiology is the best.
>Starting epidemiology class.
>Highest GPA student is in my class, he's your typical gunner and is pretty stuck up also.
>We start doing simple statistical problems for practice.
>Gunner guy isn't getting it.
>Since he's sitting beside me, I try to explain what to do.
>He gets fucking pissed off that I'm trying to explain it to him.
>End up being the top of my class in epidemiology, making me wonder if I should have gone into engineering instead.

It turns out the reason he went into medicine is because he wanted a career that required no math. Let's hope he doesn't get into peds or nephrology.

To add to a funny story of when I was stupid in class:
>Urology class.
>Teacher is asking us about causes of male infertility.
>People already mentioned the common causes like hormonal imbalance, tissue damage from infections, trauma.
>Teacher keeps asking for more.
>Remember King of the Hill.
>Say "narrow urethra".
>Teacher gives me a look of utter confusion.

I still cringe to this day.

I think I should be able to get used to the exhaustion. I've been through really tough grinds before, adapted to it and managed it quite well. Feels like a shitty gift to be honest, know of some friends who really snapped grinding too hard and just lost the discipline and the motivation. Well, beggars can't be choosers, would rather have the gift of natural intelligence rather than this.

If anything, having the nagging feeling of being intellectually inadequate is good for you.

Some of the best physicians I know are the really humble ones who want to keep learning and reviewing old information, and fare much better than the ones who feel they already know everything.

At least, in my experience. The feeling that I am still somehow inadequate tends to make me over-prepare. Everyone says I worry to much and I'm a great applicant, but I guess I'm not going to believe until I actually get accepted.

It's not just for med school, though. It's the rest of your life. (Unless maybe you want to be a surgeon, but I have more experience in internal medicine, so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.)

You have to be a person who is able to constantly grind and still find time and joy in researching new things about your career. Most physician's life ends up revolving completely around medicine, with little time for other things. But I will say that medicine is a very rewarding and fun career if you like researching and reading up on new things. The whole branch is infinitely interesting.

I know I hate the grind, but (not to brag) I've been able to get by on my natural intelligence and innate capacity for memorization. I love reading about new things and learning how everything works, but I hate sitting doing and just memorizing. Just the fact that I dislike memorizing makes my class ranking and gpa worse than what it should be, everyone is always thinks I'd be higher.

Yo thanks brother. Just needed to know I'm not too stupid for medicine, just needed to know whether if I put my back into it, I could do as good or if not better than those who are smarter.

I'm mostly interested in being a surgeon, I want to work in a general hospital mostly and help many patients by fixing them with surgery.

You'll be fine. Surgeons in general love memorizing stuff, and those will be the sort of stuff they will ask you.

Once you start working you won't have to deal with the academic stuff anymore.

I can only speak for my field, which is neurology. I can't imagine a computer performing a neurological examination and interpreting it correctly.

Also treatment decisions are often intricate with neurology. I think we would need very strong semi-supervised learning to do that with computers. Lastly the question of who is responsible is key and problematic similar to as it is with self-driving cars.

That may be true for surgical specialties but for internal medicine and neurology you need to understand a lot of deep abstract concepts.

Well, I'm just interested in surgical specialties. So would I be fine?

I'm pretty sure they're not factoring in AI diagnosing tech, such as Watson:

bbc.com/news/technology-37653588

It's a hard thing to include and it obviously won't be lightening the load of the surgeon shortfall claimed by the paper. However, AI or highly automated medical tech could be pervasive in the medical field within the decade. Especially considering that Watson is already started entering into medicine last year.

It's interesting how computers can compare symptoms from a list and give a statistically more precise answer than humans. But computers don't have the same opportunity to interact with the patient as doctors do. Sure, if you're an inpatient you only get maybe a a quarter hour with the doctor each day, but they work in teams and discuss diagnoses and conditions. The team setting ensures that multiple views can be argued, based on different experiences and specializations.

I have no doubt computers will play a larger role in future medicine, especially considering remote controlling surgery with computer aid, and I also think that most simple "doctors visits" can be expediated effectively by computers, as they are usually not very serious, but I don't think we're anywhere near a replacement scenario, both due to diagnostics and personal relationships between caretaker and patient (is my patient of 20 years acting differently for a headache now than before, have they changed slightly etc.).

One of the big trials using Watson in neurology failed a few weeks ago and the others haven't exactly lived up to the hype.

Dont tell me, you're swedish?
What school is this anyway? Karolinska, Uppsala or Lund?

>karolinska
Is this overrated? I know Johns Hopkins is.

I can only believe this because last week in my pharmacology class I had a guy ask if people could transmit fevers through sharing water.

Karolinska has amazing rankings for some reason, like 6 in the world in medicine and 7 in life sciences. Mostly due to Karolinska handing out the nobel prize in medicine/physiology I would reckon. It's a pretty decent med school and a good research university, but 6 in the world, nah. Don't get me wrong, it's a good university where they give you opportunities to become everything, but it's not 6 in the world.
If you want to know anything more about KI just ask.
>t. KI med school student

>there's a doctor shortage in my area
>our dumb-as-fuck health minister decides to reduce med-school acceptances, make doctors take up even more patients (he gave an estimate of 7-8 patients an hour) and that they now have to work 6/7 days of the week in order to "balance" things out. Oh, and he's also making doctors and other health care workers, the nurses, orderlies, techs, do things they're not even trained to do in order to reduce spending on hospitals
>with this dumb rules, soon we'll just have NO doctors

I'm planning on going into medicine for the inevitable doctor shortage we're going to have here. Helps that I have actual hospital experience.
It's insanely competitive here, but I'll try.

Fuck that explains it. No fucking way some swedish university in the middle of nowhere shits out nobel prize winners like it's nothing. Literally people go there to siphon nobel prizes.

Yo bro, you should do your research there, you could get your face on the news worldwide.

>Karolinska has amazing rankings for some reason, like 6 in the world in medicine and 7 in life sciences.

Uni rankings reflect one thing, and one thing only: whether the university itself made a deliberate effort trying to advance in the ranking. I've graduated from a university ranked 170+ and am now employed by one that constantly ends up being in the top 30. My old alma mater was better in every way. My new one obviously put effort into making some of the numbers look good and thus end up being in such a good place.

Ignore rankings. They're worthless.

That's false you retard

You know hundreds of years ago people would say "machines will never replace textile makers!"

You're even more of an idiot than they are because you know what technology is capable of but can't see past your own nose and extrapolate.

Top fucking kek, Caribbean med school student detected

What is the deal with Caribbean med schools anyway?. Do they just hand out degrees, and are they even legit?

Planning on doing my Ph.D here while in med school or doing it at something like Oxbridge if I'm able to post med school. Lots of people come here for their PhD's, I think mainly because they looked at the rankings and nothing else or they just really want to come to Sweden for some reason. Karolinska papers have ridicolous amount of citations though, it's mainly that which the rankings care about.

What fascinates me the most is that in the Shanghai rankings, Karolinska outranks Oxford and is ranked 22 in the TIMEs best universities with all subjects. I mean, that's just ridicolously inflated.

I can imagine that it's a lot that isn't shown in the ranking. What matters most to me are the opportunities given for you to succeed, which I find Karolinska Institute grants me with professors being really excited if you wanna work in their lab and with corporate relations.

What country?

>What country?
Fuckin Canada. These proposed new rules are only for the worst province of Quebec though.
All the med students I know only come here for McGill University and are taking off to the US or abroad once they graduate.