R8 my philosophy on suicide

I've been thinking about why people consider suicide to be a bad decision and I unironically think the exact opposite
When you kill yourself...
>...all the negative aspects of your life go away, which is a good thing
>...all the positive aspects of your life go away, which seems like a bad thing, but you'd no longer feel the need for them so it's actually a neutral thing.
So suicide is on one side good, on the other neutral, so overall it's good.
Am I missing something here? Is my logic inconsistent? Or should I just kill myself because it's the best option?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement
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You've not considered the potential good in your equations, neither have you considered other people, or the fact that suicide is a fucking impulse that can easily be treated

Reminds me of that guy who left a treatise on why suicide is good as his suicide note.

do it/10

i dont know waht to say about suicide , i personally think this about life:
>You are born to fail
>You are born to learn about your failures to never happen again
>You fail in life to help others
Also , once my little brother and i where having a dumb disqussion and i said ; "You cant never do something rigth , what can you do rigth?"
and he said "live , because i can kill myself"

Humans have a natural revulsion towards death, as all animals do. The crux of anti-suicide feelings is almost always just rationalization of an emotional response.

That said, if philosophers who think suicide is logical tend to not actually kill themselves. People who ACTUALLY kill themselves are people with mental illness or who are severely depressed.

Another thing that holds people back is the thought of work left undone. Assuming there is even one thing you want to do more than die, then it's logical to not die so you can do that thing.

>neither have you considered other people
irreverent because once he is dead that is no longer a concern
> or the fact that suicide is a fucking impulse that can easily be treated
We're discussing suicide as a philosophical concept here, not the actions of a lunatic (which it almost invariably is). Some examples of suicides which were justified and reasonable in context would be the suicide of Socrates by poison hemlock or suicide to preserve family honor by Japanese nobility.

Other people don't matter in consideration for suicide because they'll be dead soon too. If they can't handle the pain they can always kill themselves so it happens sooner.
Never thought of it like that, suicide is incredibly logical to me but I've never done it even though I've naturally let my life deteriorate out of lack of caring. I can't even imagine the pain people go through where they actually do it.

How about
>...all the negative aspects of your life go away, which seems like a good thing, but you'd no longer feel the need for them so it's actually a neutral thing.
>...all the positive aspects of your life go away, which is a bad thing

>irreverent because once he is dead that is no longer a concern
No. They still exist after your death. Any philosophy that believes the subject's perception is the whole world is retarded.

0-1 = -1
-1 + 1 = 0

suicide is neutral

this desu

>other people matter
spooky

Well, first you can't actually prove anything exists outside your own perception. Consider Descartes evil demon. All of the universe, aside from ourselves, could easily be a fabrication.

Putting that aside because it's pretty much "U CANT NO NOTHIN" philosopher fuckery, lets consider why other people matter. Ultimately, the happiness of other people is only important if you perceive it somehow. If some action you take causes somebody great suffering, but you never know about it in any way, then it has not effected you negatively in any way. Even if you are the most perfectly selfless saint, if you do not know of the suffering you cause then to you it has had no negative outcome.

Likewise, if you are dead, than any resulting suffering is irrelevant to you personally because you can not know of it. While it is not "irrelevant" in the general sense, I mean to say that it is irrelevant to the person who is dead.

>egoism
This is why active euthanasia should be allowed.
You only exist through your interactions with other people. Consider yourself without anybody to talk to, nothing to read because nobody wrote something. Do you exist ?

If you move into isolation do you stop existing? You sound like you have dependency issues.

Of course you exist retard. You existing is your perception of reality. If you have no perception THEN you cease to exist.

learn 2 think

The positive is good, but it could be argued, that the need for the positive in the first place is a bad thing, because you can never truely statisfy all your desires.
->The need for the positive is bad so it's good when it's gone
->When the need is gone, there is no more positive to be lost.
Hence, loosing the positive is irrelevant

Imagine you loved Twinkies. Suddenly, the the company that produces them goes bankrupt, but you simalaniously loose your appetite for twinkies. You wouldn't care because you no longer feel the need. So it's not a negative thing.

The same logic can't be applied the other way around. Wether you care about the negative after your death is irrelevant, because it is gone either way. the negative is bad, so when it's gone that's a good thing.

Therefore:
->loosing the positive is neutral
->loosing the negative is good

I think, therefor I am.

Your theory that a person only exists if they have a chat with somebody else or read a book doesn't even make sense. Do you think fish don't exist because they can't have a nice chat with other fish or read Hemmingway?

it's neutral because positive doesn't exist when you are dead therefore it's a negative. Losing the negative is positive. So you end up with it being neutral. Fucking retard.

Labelling things as good or bad is kind of elementary school kid levels of retardation desu. We aren't in some fairy tale of orcs vs. humans where things can be good or evil. Things just are.

You've managed to make objectivism sounds intelligent and thoughtful. Congratulations.

The axiom that only your perception of reality exists is something really practical to make you say the edgiest things, but it really is not. There is such a thing as society. There is such a thing as others.
You exist within these systems. The pain you cause onto others should be considered.

Move out of your parent's house into the real world if you think the idea of being an individual is absurd or edgy please. It's not healthy.

Makes no sense, bringing in systems and participation into senses. If you can't perceive anything sure you can still be a corpse or a husk but it isn't you.

You = data in (perception) + reaction to data. No data in, no anything.

I *am* out of my parent's house, thank you very much.
You're not defining the idea of being an individual. You're defining the idea of being *the* individual, the *subject*, the protagonist of the story, the only one that matters.
That's what your idea that "reality is my perception" basically boils down to. When I make a choice I consider others as well as myself. Or do you respect speed limits, as an example, just because you're afraid of being fined ?

>He doesn't recognize the difference between moral right and wrong and percieved positive and negative

You're keep reposting this but every time you're ignoring the two specific refutations.
1: You can not prove anything other than your own perception exist. just saying "yeah it does" doesn't count as a counter argument.
2: Even if you assume that the universe exists outside of personal perception (which I grant it probably does), the fact remains that once a person dies, nothing that happens effects them personally. It only effects other people in a way that is imperceptible to them. Can you come up with a single reason why I should care about the emotional state of people after I am already dead? It's not like I'm going to benefit from society or companionship once I'm dead.

Guess what? There are people in space with not a single person for miles around, to say their existence is any less than yours is an insult.

People consider suicide bad because all the people that consider it good usually kill themselves.

Positive not existing isn't negative when the need for it, which gives it a point in the first place, is gone.

Yes, but my understanding was you considered the whole world as what I perceive. When I'm gone there surely will still be people around.
I also believe that the equation is more like

You = data in + reaction to data + memories, biases, and experiences.

This is by far the most intelligent post in this thread
Suicide isn't considered good because people are dumb, but because of natural selection.

Please list a moral right that you personally adhere to and I'll explain how you're full of shit.

You're (purposefully) misreading me. My example was in a situation where you were literally alone in time and space, the only sentiment being.
Our disagreement was on weather or not we should consider other's people when we suicide. I say yes. You apparently said no because since we're not there they are apparently not existing any more. I made a bad example, arguing that your definition of existence as "it only exists if I perceive it" is flawed.

Wrong. There have been plenty of philosophers who have concluded in their own opinion that suicide was logical and good, but didn't kill themselves. Even when people mentally think suicide is fine, their animal instincts stop them from putting it into action. This kind of philosophical hypocrisy is pretty common, actually. A lot of people do things they know not to be correct.

Mental illness does happen and there are people restrained 24/7 because they are a danger to themselves.

Veeky Forums is already looking nice.
> My last time on Reddit

There is not such thing as moral right or wrong
I meant to say it's retarded how you think you can't lable things as good or bad in the sense that good means "preferable state of being" and bad means "unpreferable state of being". I never said anything about good and evil, I'm purely talking about what is preferable to oneself. Morals have nothing to do with this thread.

Well, instead of just killing yourself like that you could just live dangerously like fucking some whores, climb mt everest, become a drug addict, etc.
Since if you're going to kill yourself then do it but do it right.

But you shouldn't do it if you're just an edgy nihilist autist from reddit that wants to kill himself because his mommy didn't gave him the money for dem animes.
You gotta have a really shitty life, family, home, no money, be in a 3rd world shithole and no home in order to really kill yourself, OP.

But eh, I never give a shit about someone who kills himself either way, he would just be some coward pussyfaggot that didn't wanted to live on this beautiful place called earth.

This thread isn't about some specifically suicidal person. It's about the philosophical ramifications of the concept of suicide in general.

Brainlets get out. Also all your opinions sound like they're copy pasted from a 13 year olds facebook post

>Ignoring OP's argument this hard
The amount of positive and negative doesn't matter. According to OP's logic the only scenario in which suicide is not preferable to life is when there are literlly 0 negative aspects in your life. Considering this includes even the most minor annoyances like stubbing your toe, being a bit cold or having an itch, it's impossible to be in this perfect state of being, so suicide is still the best option.

But hey, as long as you can call anyone who dares to suggest suppoedly bad things are good an underage nihilistic redditor I guess you're happy.

I don't care about being remembered on account that I won't be around to know that I'm being remembered. I'd rather do something useful in the here and now, because that would give me pleasure in the here and now. Nothing I can do seems to be particularly useful to anyone so life is just a chore. I'm just supporting this body for another day for no reason in particular.

Man I hate people like you who are incapable of critical thought. Nihilism is the most freeing philosophy there is, nothing about it is edgy. What value is there in fucking whores, climbing mount everest, or becoming a drug addict compared to suicide? If anything you're being wasteful of precious resources that can be used by other organisms who are deluded into thinking that doing these things are important. If you have the potential to kill yourself and see no problem with it them by all means do whatever you want. Why do you care what he does so much with his life? Worry about yourself before you run around trying to be a hero.

Sorry meant to quote

>my philosophy
>my

Read some Schopenhauer and Camus.

>Philosophical
So why isn't this on Veeky Forums? You know this isn't the board for this?
>nothing about it is edgy
Most of the people talking about this are, though.
>What value is there in fucking whores, climbing mount everest, or becoming a drug addict compared to suicide?
You're still pretty much killing yourself in a different way than just hanging yourself.
Why not do the stupid shit you wanted to do that you thought was risky and dangerous if you're going to kill yourself anyway?
>If you have the potential to kill yourself and see no problem with it them by all means do whatever you want.
No problem with that though, not saying one shouldn't kill himself.
>Why do you care what he does so much with his life? Worry about yourself before you run around trying to be a hero.
Just sayin' mmkay

There is no reason to live desu. The only thing we really need to survive is to maintain homeostasis. But if that was all we got, we would all kill ourselves from boredom.

This is why humans are so social. Because we need people to reassure us that what we're doing is actually worthwhile. It's not. If you take a nice picture, people will say "wow you look so great!" They won't say "what the fuck are you doing, you're basically a pig in a suit". If you go on a vacation, you have to tell other people. Because deep down inside you know it's not actually that great. Human society tricks itself into thinking that life is not pointless. That there is actually some long-lasting happiness. There isn't. There is nothing.

Have you ever been in isolation for more than a few days? It's a torture. You start hallucinating; you start feeding yourself information in this loop you create for yourself or you'd probably kill yourself by automation or some shit. We NEED interaction with other animals, even if that means our own projected wavering mental state.

Sollipsism is so childish. It's a reconciliation with one's own struggle with the notion of death. There's literally a sample size of 7 billion people, each walking and perceiving the universe in a slightly different way because they don't occupy the same space nor convey the same physiological build as you. You diminish your peers as simply a figment of your imagination when alot more of them than you can imagine have greater mental capacities than you. Sure it may be unfalsifiable to project objective reality from a subjective one sample size viewpoint, but that's just silly, since we're a collection of 7 billion units, not one.
In summation: stop being a special snowflake, cunt, and start doing something you so you can come to terms with yourself before you die.

>Implying homeostasis doesn't involve social interaction

Society is just one giant circlejerk. We do it so that we don't all kill ourselves.

>, he would just be some coward pussyfaggot that didn't wanted to live on this beautiful place called earth


I'll bite (I'm not OP btw), interested in hearing how much of a coward I am

>do live in a 3rd wolrd shithole
>one which had 40k´+ homicides recorded each year for the last 10 years or so
>also amongst highest incidences of rape (actual rape, not ''rape stare'' that exists in western nations), corruption, theft
>health care absolute garbage, people being operated on the floor, dying on corridors
>had my house broken into several times
>robbed at gun point more than thrice
>shot at twice
>witnessed death in front of me as early as when I was 8 years old (police complete unleashing a barrage against a guy on the street out of nowhere in front of me)
>seeing kids smoking crack or sniffing glue is a daily occurence
>was ran over by a drunk fucktard when I was 6, threw up blood for a month because of that retard - have scars because of that until this day
>born with problems on the heart (cardiac arrhythmia, heart murmur and pectus excavatum
>health care malpractice left me with a huge scar on my chest (had complications due to it for years)
>I also happen to be the worst failure in the family, never achieving anything I set out to do
>the only thing I've ever been competent at is learning languages, I was able to learn English ;
and German by myself
>I'm also now in debt
>know I'll never be able to realize my dream (move to Japan, which I had the pleasure of visiting - and which was the only happiness I had in my life)

Do tell me how much of a pussy I am. Working a night shift job dealing with drunkards, being threatened, cleaning piss and shit, while some American or European guy cries about muh feminism and muh immigrants.

I've had so many suicidal thoughts lately that only focusing on doing my daily tasks is becoming a burden lately I can't even sleep properly anymore.

Beaten by about 2000 years faggot

Epicurus: “Death, the most frightening of bad things, is nothing to us; since when we exist death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist” (Letter to Menoeceus, 125)

It's tough dude.
I see it as you have a few options, however.
-Leave everything behind, use your language skills, like travel and work during travel or some shit.
-Keep living your current life and wither
-Release yourself by suicide, but hopefully choose a painless option

You have the option of achieving a better life for yourself if you're still a capable human being. You have a skill you can use. Think about it utilizing that.

>-Leave everything behind, use your language skills, like travel and work during travel or some shit.

Most countries (developed ones) don't have a work/travel visa program for my country.

Japan complete out of the list obviously.
And I don't want to be an illegal and a burden on another country.

I could potentially work 3 months at Disney World during summer vacations in the USA...

For what? there's no way to progress there and I'd end up coming back to the shithole I currently live in after that time.

>-Release yourself by suicide, but hopefully choose a painless option

I actually think the opposite.
I thought about cutting myself open through the solar plexus. I probably am mentally ill at this point but being the failure that I am, I'd like to at least take my life by my own hand and have a stern face at the point of death, so that I'd at least have stood with fierceness where many people would have cried and begged mercy.

But then what if I even fail at this?
I think this is the one thing holding me back, not knowing if I'd be able to fulfill it the way I want it to be.

It's hard not trying to sound ''edgy'' when suicide is constantly in your mind, in your dreams and you simply can't stop thinking about it.

I cannot rationally acknowledge this argument. The notion that suicide is in anyway beneficial or rational is asinine.

You are making this judgement on the basis of beneficial and negative aspects of your life. The judgement relies on the claim that a. there exists both beneficial and negative things, b. death is without sensation, and c. the presumption that if beneficial and negative things exist they are of equal value. As b. relies purely on the concept of the metaphysics which Veeky Forums finds unsavory we can happily ignore it. As for a. and c. they are particularly poor.

If we claim there exists positive and negative things than we must have a basis on which to stage this claim. I'll presume this argument is made from a materialistic worldview as this argument is rather unfashionable for the spiritual. As such positives and negatives must stem from materialism. The only conception of positive and negative for which we have access stems from the human animal's perception of pleasure and suffering. Both of which are the result of -- rather arbitrary but generally beneficial to survival -- chemical reactions in the brain in response to stimuli. Both are simply events to be observed. Neither of which is of any particular value over any other event. From a purely materialistic worldview such events are neutral. Neither good nor bad. Simply things that are presumably occurring. The absence or experience of either pleasure or suffering is neither negative nor positive in any way, shape, or form. And the distinction is meaningless. Death being without sensation means that suicide ceases ones ability to observe these events, and nothing more. This fate is inevitable. And one's decision to accelerate the process is, like all things, arbitrary. The decision to do so based on some equally arbitrary dichotomous human distinction of positives and negatives
is irrational because within this framework at best the decision can only be said to be neutral.

>Both of which are the result of -- rather arbitrary but generally beneficial to survival -- chemical reactions in the brain in response to stimuli. Both are simply events to be observed. Neither of which is of any particular value over any other event. From a purely materialistic worldview such events are neutral. Neither good nor bad.

You imply there are no states of being that are preferable to other states of being, so for instance being tortured would be no less preferable than getting laid because hey, it's just chemicals in our brain, right?

You must be retarded

i've been reading the thread and all your arguments. to be honest you're not missing anything at all. your argument is flawless.

the only question is why you haven't killed yourself yet?

>r8 my philosophy on...
Even as a stemfag this gets on my nerves

For now, my survival instinct likely keeps me from doing it, but considering I'm a human and we usually rely more on rationality than instincts that's not an excuse.
I guess I'm just scared I missed an important detail that disproves my whole argument and suicide is actually a mistake. Since death is final I won't kill myself until I'm absolutely certain it's definitely the best choice.

why

You're hardly the first person to think about this.

Suicide IS rational.. but it's better to live, because it unironically always gets better. People who survived suicide attempts often say they regretted it.

Your bro deep. Thanks for sharing.

>isolation for a few days
>hallucinating

Come visit New England. I WON'T hang out with you.

if you feel suicidal, just die. You're weak, and your genes and cultural influence needs to be eradicated.
Beat it, and show strength of self, or just die. Evolution marches on and you were not needed. Our descendents will repair and be better than you ever where.

i agree

Mipha plz

this is all rooted in an assumption that there is no consciousness after death.

If you could prove death = no consciousness or awareness, then it would be a good argument.

For now, just change your thinking.

>Have you ever been in isolation for more than a few days? It's a torture.

It's torture because you aren't used to it. I prefer isolation because I find humans retarded and annoying. All they do is talk about their boring problems that interest me for a whole 5 seconds while I contemplate how I would have done it differently.

People are so predictable. I have been neet for almost 7 years. I value my solace and I really don't care.

Reading the rest of the thread it just seems like a bunch of mentally ill retards talking about their problems or other retards caring about if some mental retard lives or dies. Get on with it please, do a flip faggot.

you just start over when you die, so it's pointless unless you have literally zero favorable options, next one not a guaranteed improvement

let's get creative

>Implying you're not interacting, still

You're really dumb aren't you? When I'm talking about isolation, I'm talking about Z E R O interactiong, not even in the abstract form. The only thing you have is you and your mind. There is nothing to verify, there is nothing to ask feedback on.
You're just sitting in a confined space where only you can interact with yourself indefinitely.
Let's see how that goes.

> I find humans retarded and annoying. All they do is talk about their boring problems that interest me for a whole 5 seconds while I contemplate how I would have done it differently.
>People are so predictable

Why are you scared of missing an important detail? As you've quite successfully argued already, even if you were, it wouldn't matter.

Just because you are a needy bitch doesn't make everyone like that. I remember when I first became anti-social. It did feel shitty, but I wasn't hallucinate or losing my mind. After 6 months of sitting around I stopped feeling the "need" to socialize or validate myself by other people's opinions.

It's all about staying occupied. Do you really think there aren't people who don't like interacting with others? You got some serious autism. Can't wait for you to get older, watching your family die from fucked up reasons, seeing all your friends move on and get married.

I can tell you are probably like 18 and crave validation.

Please kill yourself, I'm begging you. Nothing would make me laugh harder. You sound utterly pathetic. Grow up.

>being a NEET for 7 years
>thinks he can call anyone else mentally ill with credibility
LOL

You shouldnt kill yourself as you have potential to lead a good life. Also, you only know of this reality and the fact you can lead a good life (under most circumstances) so you should live this life to your fullest.

You still don't get it, do you, fucking cretin.
It's not about being anti-social, it's about being confined to a space with just you in it. There is no possibility to connect. It's not an option.
You don't get to see, hear, or have any kind of evidence anything else than you exists.
That's not what you're doing, you're fucking responding to internet messages on the internet retard.
Do you buy all your food online? Do you not go on the internet and watch anything social? Do you not read the news? Do you NEVER go outside?
Stop responding in this edgy fashion, because you have no clue what you're talking about lol

>I'm a unique special butterfly
>now listen to my problems
>look at the new piece of plastic I purchased
>this is how I bake cookies

This is the average persons extent of "socialization". 90% of people are garbage. Even on Veeky Forums, lots of people here are good at math but retarded at everything else, from biology, to critical thinking, to philosophy.

It's hilarious.

That wasn't your original criteria, you said if people don't socialize for a couple days they begin to hallucinate. Pure, mental retardation.

No, fucking asshole. My original premise was ISOLATION. The thing that happens in jail when you misbehave. You know what isolation means don't you?
Fucking degenerate.

Here we go, getting angry because someone isn't validating you, moving the goal posts. Most people who are isolated, in prison for instance will keep sane by making up games, or by sleeping. Are you dumb?

I think you are trying to say sensory deprivation, which isn't the same thing.

I've never moved the goalposts. I said isolation is torture, that's it. You start to dance around that for whatever reason.
If anyone's acting like a special snowflake, it's you, so stop projecting. Get out of your shithole, it's obvious you're not happy with it.

Just read the wiki page, faggot. It might enlighten you. Here, I'll even provide the link for you.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement

You can't even define isolation consistently. And I'm the one being vague? Life is isolation, life only gets harder. So if you can't handle a few days of "boredom" you might as well end it now.

>just read this

No

I've never been inconsistent with my definition of isolation. I've continuously defined it as a complete void of human interaction and no way to see evidence of other humans around you. I even extended it to other animals, because animals can definitely be a companion you need to keep you sane.

Ok, then don't do it. I don't give a fuck, just tried to educate you, but I guess you just seem to be too much of an edgelord.

So in your scenerio, hermits, pioneers, settlers, colonialists and prospectors are all insane because they don't get validated. Seems convincing, I mean you are losing your shit because I'm not validating your gay autism.

So before the internet was invented, everyone without a car who lived outside the city was crazy. And petting kitties and bunny rabbits keeps you sane.

Sorry, you are a huge retarded FAG.

You make false assumption.

What if when you die you are sent to eternal torment and pain for eternity?

Then your goal in life would be to survive the longest.

What if when you die you are instantly respawn as some other organism on some other planet. Being a human is pretty good. No matter how many times you kill yourself, you will always respawn, so you can't escape life with suicide; only humanity.

>you just start over when you die,

how do you know so?

Haven't literally LOL'd in awhile, thanks user

>how do you know so?
obviously because i've done it.

the question you should be asking is whether or not you can trust me.

>live
>make millions
>fuck bitches
>die slow ride slow getcha game on

I believe you senpai!

Why is this shit thread in Veeky Forums?