Hey Veeky Forums, I wanna get into reading and learning about western Philosophy. I got these two books yesterday...

It's more like they got the selection wrong.

Essential Dialogues of Plato has: Ion, Lesser Hippias, Laches, Symposium, Gorgias, Phaedrus, Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedus, Protagoras, Statesman, Laws.

A Plato Reader has: Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Meno, Phaedo, Symposium, Phaedrus, and Republic.

I'd recommend the latter, which is why I told you to get a copy of the Republic.

Jowett is tough for a first timer. I tried to start with the very B&N edition you have and couldn't get through much of it. Hackett's Five Dialogues and then Republic is what actually got me into philosophy about a year later.

there's not reason for philosophy to be a chore
Start to explore a topic in the most basic way, find an author that piqued your interest, don't worry if you don't get all the references, and if you'really like philosophy you'll naturally branch out.

It could be. But it notice that it uses Jowett's translations which are outdated (and they're open sourced, hence why Barns and Noble uses them) and I don't think their annotations, notes, and introduction would be as useful for a new reader as Hackett (whose the paragon publisher for translated philosophy texts for students) based from my observations of reading B&N's Thucydides's Histories translation. Jowett also is notorious for his overtly Victorian diction that doesn't accurately represent the simple and casual language Plato used, and thus his translations have been known to confuse and frustrate new readers (as well as getting criticized by a lot of later scholars and translators).

Is it vastly different that you won't get what Plato meant accurately? No, especially if you follow the lectures and courses. But Hackett will serve you much better in your instance, especially if you're new to philosophy.

I think I will follow your suit

In addition, thanks for all the helpful guidance so far guys!

Pick up other user's recommended Plato Reader instead. It has all the dialogues in the same translations as what I posted, plus Symposium and Phaedrus which are must reads, and all in one volume.

A Plato Reader is also unabridged with those dialogues. You're getting the raw deal with reading all the essential dialogues that are helpful for understanding the Republic and later on for Aristotle and onward, with adequate notes and nicely introduced that you won't find in the Complete Works by Plato.

Barns and Nobles' edition seems to be just selections. I can't find the list of those dialogues on their website or Amazon, but I do know those are his major and most relevant dialogues that are accepted to be his, and would probably be 1200-1500 pages in raw length by themselves.

does anyone else think aristotle was retarded?

Yes, but he was on the right tract.

Brilliant resources, thank you.

OP here, so do you think I should start with Platos reader by Hackett, then move onto Republic? Also, does Platos reader by Hackett already cover what's in Platos five dialogues, and Essential Dialougues of Plato (I would assume this puts Platos reader at the top of the food chain so to speak)?

Forgot to mention if these books are what I should pick up as well: Hackett's "A Pre-Socratic Reader",And "Selections of Aristotle"

>Ion
>Lesser Hippias
>Laches
>Crito
>Euthyphro
How the fuck is this part of the "essential dialogues"?

Plato Reader has everything Five Dialogues has, plus Phaedrus, Symposium, and Republic. Assuming the dialogues are in the same order as describes (I don't own it) I would recommend reading them in that order.

Fuck the "essential dialogues" and "five dialogues" seen ITT, this is where the real shit is :

Start with the Major Alcibiades, as recommended by Iamblichus and Proclus as the introductory dialogue to Plato ; if you spend some time on it, you will realize it thoroughly explains the nature of the enlenchus, that of dialectics and finally, that of maieutics. You need to know these things before you start reading Plato.

I then recommend reading one more "early dialogue" to understand the "moral finality" of elenchus (refutation) and how, on a dialectical level, such refutations proceed.

You can read more of Plato's early dialogues, or just move on directly to the Meno, to see how the early socratic method is fundamentally lacking in epistemological justification. The Meno will introduce you to reminescence and metempsychosis.

Therefrom, you can read the Phaedo and the Phaedrus. Read both thoroughly. Read the Theaetetus, to understand Socrate's relation to knowledge, and how such a quest would look, if Forms were to be discarded. This should get you ready to move on to the Symposium. Analyze it deeply, try to understand how it deals with Plato's dialectical/erotic approach to the intelligible.

You should be ready for the Republic. Read it. Work on it, take notes, etc. Read the Statesman, then the Sophist.

Now get ready, it's time for the Parmenides. Arguably Plato's hardest. If you don't feel like you have the time/energy for it, just read the first part, which should be enough. Try to refute yourself Parmenide's refutations of the theory of Forms, that's what the dialogue suggests the reader should do.

Read the Republic again.

Now you can read the Timaeus, the ultimate dialogue, with the last one I'll recommend you to read...

The Laws.

This shouldn't take more than six months, and could be achieved in two.

>Try to refute yourself Parmenide's refutations of the theory of Forms, that's what the dialogue suggests the reader should do.

cringing so hard here

"Plato Reader" has the Republic in it unabridged. The "Plato's 5 Dialogues" by Hackett is basically a shorter version of the "Plato Reader" that I would only recommend buying if you already an adequate translation of the Republic, but I would recommend you get the Plato Reader over it.

If the dialogues what says are in the "Essential Dialogues of Plato" are correct, then those are probably selections from all those listed dialogues, and not completely unabridged. Which might be more useful over the "The Plato's Reader" if you want to read more about Plato's entire career, as the Republic--the last dialogue in the "Plato Reader" which the purpose of the other 7 dialogues in the book are meant to build up and help you understand the references and inferences made in the Republic it-self--is very important dialogue for Plato as he practically spends the second half of his career expounding on it for additional details, but it isn't quite necessary to read the dialogues dated after the Republic which aren't in the "Plato Reader" if you want to continue on with reading Aristotle and such, and perhaps go the later dialogues like "Gorgias", "Protagoras", "Parmenides", "Philebus", "Theaetetus", "Statesman", "Sophist", "Timaeus", and "Laws" later on, preferably in other Hackett singular or small-collect editions if you do want to read them after the Plato Reader.

And yes, I would absolutely recommend you pick of Hackett's "A Pre-Socratic Reader", as Plato and Aristotle talk about and refute a lot of their points that they talk about a lot in their writings. I recommend you read it before Plato.
Selections of Aristotle is perhaps the best primary introductory book for Aristotle. Reading him, unlike Plato, is very difficult as his works that we have are basically compiled estoric lecture notes that weren't likely meant to be published, so he constantly expects you to know what he talked about in other lectures and uses a lot of abstract jargon. Reading unabridged works of his--especially with little or no annotation and commentary, or no prior instruction from another source--would be pretty difficult, that is quite unlike Plato's dialogues which were way more refine and welcoming to new readers. Selections basically allows you to get the gist of his philosophy and understand him with adequate context once you move on to read books of his whole.

>the ultimate dialogue
>Laws
I hope you're jesting. That's the most boring and un-philosophical dialogue he has.

What are you on about you fucking bitch?

shut the fuck up you pseud

>I like my Plato the same way I like my cinema : loaded with action!

Just fucking off yourself.

>thinking the most ultimate dialogue that Plato wrote after getting diagnosed with autism was the one that he created after getting tired and fed up from being asked if the type of government in the Republic was really possible to attain in reality, and if-not, what would be the best practical alternative; to which his answer was to go on and write the most longest dialogue of all his works that goes into overt detail about the exact particular details in his pragmatic state and how he would do them while barely focusing on any philosophical topics.
>implying the contents of are of any relevance today with modern readers aside from it's contrasts to the Republic and showing Plato's changed views later in his life.

>implying his views changed from the Republic to the Laws
hahaha have you read any

I know I am a bit dense, but just to be sure, the text on the right page is the same text from the left page, right?

reddit tier answer.

well it appears to be a completely different language

...

Yes. But they're not in the same language.

thanks