Vegans BTFO again

That land needs to be used for ecological systems
Decentralized agriculture is the way to go

Simple starches aren't heathly

Extremely efficient large scale production uses less space and energy than millions of amateurs doing it by them selves.

Same reason why we send things in enormous cargoships instead of having millions of delivery drivers

Yes they are. Not if it's all you eat, but you need to eat them. And beans are much more than simple starches.

Then there's also the fact that vegetables are way cheaper per pound than any fastfood/tv dinners

>extremely effecient large scale production uses less energy and space
It's only effecient at turning a profit from capital, industrial agriculture destorys everything it touches.
it requires massive amounts of energy and an unequal distribution of power incompatible with anarchist ideals.
>millions of delivers drivers
Irrelevant if nothing needs to be delivered

hive-cities when

>No Tricks Zone
>nothing but deceptive arguments immaturely lashing out at anything "green"

Why hasn't science found a way to make vertical farming more nutrient-rich yet? What's the holdup?

>It's only effecient at turning a profit from capital
and the reason for that is because it uses less energy and space, thus giving you more tomatoes for less resources/money
>it requires massive amounts of energy
No. It requires like 10x less energy per tomato
>anarchist ideals
Don't know why you think that's in any way relevant to sustainability or efficiency

the no tricks zone is nothing but tricks

how ironic

There is nothing in them that you need that you can't find in other, more nutrient dense foods

Socialism - economical system that makes people prosper
Capitalism - literal fascism

Climate controlled year-round farming.

>more nutrient dense foods
we're talking about cheap and healthy though.

>Socialism - economical system that makes people prosper

The problem is that practically every society that ever had a socialist revolution has ended up becoming an authoritarian dystopia. Look at the USSR under Joseph Stalin, Albania under Enver Hoxha, East Germany under Walter Ulbricht, Venezuela today under Nicolas Maduro. Not a pretty picture.

Going any further left than social democracy, is a road to self-destruction.

>cheap and healthy
what's that?

It's just because something like a society is too massivley complex to control.

>this nutrient is unhealthy

Sure thing, kid.

The fact that "I'm poor" is not a valid excuse for "I eat unhealthy".

The funny thing is that all my green leaf veggies not only don't come from a store, but are not grown by other farmers. Then again, all my green veggies are actually considered weeds now. I allow them to grow along with my other crops as trap plants, distraction plants, and because when I weed the garden I eat them instead. Most were part of people's normal diet until stuff like spinach or kale took over in world markets. I even grow them in the winter to eat, since it is so simple to do (pic.) Today, I had the following for lunch,

Chenopodium album (Lamb's quarters)
Persicaria maculosa (Lady's Thumb)
Plantago lanceolata (Ribwort Plantain)
Plantago major (Common Plantain)
Oxalis stricta (Sourgrass)
Erechtites hieracifolia (American Burnweed)
Stellaria media (Chickweed)

Heh, I'm not even vegetarian let along vegan.

Eat the weeds.

True that. I make no more than $300 a month and eat like a king in both quantity and nutrition. But, I only spend about $75/mo on food since I farm everything else.

>notrickszone

tl;dr

>Capitalism: Poor people are unhealthy because cheap food is complete garbage with 0 nutritional value

>What is 1kg of rice for 0.70 dollars
>what is 12 eggs for 1.30 dollars
>what is 6 gallons of milk for 3 dollars
Wew, so expensive so low nuts

Heil Hitler

Globalism was always a cancer.

it's very simple: you can't replicate nature in a lab with 100% accuracy

topsoil differences (and micro-climate conditions) are difficult to replicate, especially when you don't want to use pesticides, since many chemical reactions are due to organic matter, microorganisms and... crawling, flying, pooping creatures

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsoil

you can't grow grass in a lab, feed cows with it and then make Parmigiano-Reggiano... forget it, you are not God

Cause buildings and A/C don't exist in the countryside.

>Socialism - economical system that makes people prosper

Tell that shit to Venezuela.

>Hundreds of millions of square miles.
This is false thou, not ever climate or location is suitable for farming.

Farming in mountains sucks.
Farming while being far away from water sources suck.

Also nobody is gonna do it within the city in the same way industrial complexes are always on the outskirts.

Is it possible to feed a ton of people without pesticides? Are there chemical pesticide alternatives?

I thought the original comment referred to ecological sustainability. We are destroying our own soil.

you can mix repellent plants and companion plants to the main plants you want to grow; there are people who plant a garden/orchard this way and then leave it almost alone during the year with very little intervention:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pest-repelling_plants

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companion_plants

>ton of people
eh, here comes the problems
starting from permaculture, to step up the game you need to integrate animals into the farm (that is: manure):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_farming

it's like a medieval approach, but done efficiently with precise programming

Thanks user, never knew that existed

>We are destroying our own soil.
I don't know why you think stripping the land of megatons of soil and transporting to a bunch of amateurs in the cities would destroy it less than letting professionals handle it

that's not what vertical farming entails, I would imagine they would use hydroponics

Depends though. It will make any crop a lot more expensive, so really poor people might struggle

that sounds a lot like organic farming

>Irrelevant if nothing needs to be delivered
You still need to deliver the same things a farm needs retard. Plants don't grow on magic because they're on your balcony.

hydroponics is not ready for mass production yet though. And it will be a really long time before it's ready for a majority of countries as opposed to a few of the very richest

>6 gallons of milk for 3 dollars
Pleb

What is there to improve? All it takes is nutrients + water + substrate + light. Also microbes and fungi I guess.
The real problem is it's expensive to have vertical farming but if people invest or it get subsidized it'll work eventually.
Vertical farming has some advantages namely no pests, no weather and far less transportation (maybe there's others).

>low nutrient
lol

Not one scientific paper as a source, just wikipedia and some guy's opinion.

>Eat nothing but plants
>End up malnourished because plants don't offer the correct macronutrients in the correct quantities for any reasonable person to eat regularly
surprise

bowenpublishing.com/jaeb/paperInfo.aspx?PaperID=16664&year=2015&volume=3&number=2
here's something

But the paper mentions nothing about what OP's guy was talking about, that paper is about the cost-effectiveness of using mylar reflectors for artificial light instead of LEDs.

yeah pretty much

>Notrickzone

Oh wow, the same website notorious for climate change denial and other crank beliefs. No fucking surprise such a bullshit story comes from them.

Where the fuck do you live where food prices are that low? 1 gallon of milk is over $5.00 in most places. a dozen large eggs is far more than $1.30, more like at least $5.00 at most stores. 1kg of Rice, again, for only $0.70? Where the fuck are you buying your food from?

>Vertical farming has some advantages namely no pests

try again:

alternet.org/story/146686/why_planting_farms_in_skyscrapers_won't_solve_our_food_problems/
>Powdery mildew, aphids, mites, or other pests can easily wipe out greenhouse-grown wheat plants, for example, if chemical control is not used.
>the company filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy, having fallen victim, according to the Arizona Daily Star, to "its debt burden, labor troubles and crop pest problems," which included invasions of white flies.

How much time do you spend tending to your garden?

>Socialism- economical system for handsome young gentlemen who wear nice hats
>capitalism- stupid system chad thought up

This is (You)

Not much really. This year has been the most ever since I'm nearly at max capacity for all gardens. However, the 1st hard part is nearly done (starting seeds, planting, setting up/taking down structures.) After that initial burst of work the rest of the time is pretty chill. Then later harvesting and preserving the crops takes a good bit of time. It is great because inbetween I can go fishing with all the gear I made inside during winter.

I want to continually expand until I actually have a near full time work load, including in winter. However, I prefer to only use raised beds and making soil for those takes time.

>"I'll just become self-sufficient", said the lonely man from behind his computer.

Even in this capitalistic society, the irony is free to enjoy.

Sounds good to me.
What do you make with the weeds? Boil them or process them in a dish?
Also, what's the climate like?

That's not the reason you fckig retard. Why do you people insist to speak even thou you know shit. The reason is that vertical farming requires way too much electricity to compete with direct solar exposition, and it's only "profitable" with overpriced lettuce and herbs. I say "profitable" because it's not a business model that scales, since everywhere in the world except two or three overcrowded cities, it's cheaper to grow in open air, and there's only so much demand for premium quality fresh lettuce

Temperate, Zone 5.

I make salad, steam, boil, add to various dishes requiring normal greens. Nothing usual. When I have a ton, I sometimes pressure can them like they are spinach or collards (bottom-left three images). That's an easy way to make stuff for winter.

Check out for the most proper place to discuss farming and gardening.

Carotenoid Composition of Hydroponic Leafy Vegetables
Mieko Kimura and Delia B. Rodriguez-Amaya
J. Agric. Food Chem., 2003, 51 (9), pp 2603–2607

>pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf020539b

>Comparison of hydroponic and field-produced curly lettuce, taken from neighboring farms, showed that the hydroponic lettuce had significantly lower lutein, β-carotene, violaxanthin, and neoxanthin contents than the conventionally produced lettuce. Because the hydroponic farm had a polyethylene covering, less exposure to sunlight and lower temperatures may have decreased carotenogenesis.

>What is there to improve?
>it's expensive
This
>if people invest or it get subsidized it'll work eventually.
but not right now. Especially not "for a majority of countries as opposed to a few of the very richest"
>no pests
This is wrong, for example salmonella still thrives in hydroponics
>far less transportation
I don't know why you think this would be the case. The most efficient means of production will still be huge farms outside cities

Yeah, bacteria is a big problem in hydroponics.

civileats.com/2015/04/13/why-you-cant-have-organic-food-without-soil/
>The traditional motto of organic growing is “Feed the soil, not the plant.” Hydroponic growing is based on the opposite strategy.

comment 13 is interesting:
>One reason plants grown in soil can be more nutritious is because they feed on microbial metabolites, which are a more efficient form of plant nutrition. Through the symbiotic relationship between the plant and the active soil biology, a plant expends less energy in-taking the nutrients it needs. Furthermore, when plants have excess energy, they can store it in an active rhizosphere for use later in a growth cycle or in subsequent growing seasons. This is not possible in a traditional hydroponic system.

One cherry-picked example of a single poorly managed farm. Simple air filtration, insect screening, and employee entry & exit procedures would solve this.

~69 mg/kg vs. 55.56 mg/kg. Easily overpowered by the higher yields. A quick fix would be some cheap UV lights or UV penetrable cover if you want to go full blown autism mode. Also kinda a straw man / unfair comparison as you'd see the same shit if you grew conventionally in with a cloud cover and nobody argues replacement of a summer open soil setup with a winter hydroponic greenhouse.

...

That's some bullshit. Just from the point of view of biochemistry plants contain all the enzymatic machinery they need to grow without any microorganismal association. Introducing one only creates inefficiencies as you now require a longer pathway with more spatial/temporal degrees of freedom, transporters, metabolons, cofactors, etc and their inherent inefficiencies and weak links to obtain the same precursor-product relationship. A notable exception is poor growth under depleted conditions where the symbiont has something the host plant lacks such as capacity for nitrogen fixation, production of siderophores that are better suited for the soil type, or possession of small diameter hyphae that allow for foraging in inaccessible soil pores. In hydroponics an optimized nutrient solution is highly bioavailable and not rate-limiting for growth. Microorganisms here becomes parasitic and yield retarding as photosynate is incessantly sucked to keep them alive without anything in return for the plant.

Also, storage root initiation is dependent on oxygen availability to support the required higher rates of respiration, not microorganisms. Aeroponics would be good here

cell.com/trends/plant-science/fulltext/S1360-1385(14)00031-4

Or a modified hydroponic setup like these sweet potatoes where the developing adventitious root avoids getting submerged in solution

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273117707009532

Scientific observation of actual fascists invalidates your claim that the steroid addict on the right is a fascist.

He isn't fascist though. Only a government can be fascist.

capitalism: rich people are unhealthy because their expensive food is fucking garbage

Then he's a fascist-supporting sheeple that thinks the government will only fuck over the brown-skinned people he hates without realizing the globalists are out to fuck over everyone who isn't in their little club equally.

Another typical idiot journalist. Here's an example of the idiocy:

> The real target is to produce as much plant mass as possible, and as quickly as possible. Nutrient density is a side issue.

No, obviously, the real target is to produce the maximum profit for the corporation. It's entirely possible that high nutrient density food has a higher market value -- and if it does, then the corporate goal of maximizing profits might in fact be compatible with the goal of increasing nutrient density.

But did the journalist bother to research the actual goal of the corporation? Did the journalist bother to investigate whether high nutrient density has a higher market value? Of course not. This article is just more of the same lazy, fuzzy-headed crap that now passes as "journalism" in the modern era.

OHHHHHH BEANS, OHHH BEans, YES BEANS PLEASE, NO RICE, THAT IS LIKE ROCK, I NEEED BEANS RIGHT NOW

Make sure you think about the soil

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/16/meat-eaters-soil-degradation-over-grazing

Capitalism: people starve because we believe rich people deserve 100 food and poor people deserve 0

There it is

Not real socialism : ^ )

>Thinking this is what facism is
You are probably one of those people who think Hitler wanted world domination and to genocide every non-white race. Despite having the most diverse military at that point in history and stating repeated admiration for Britain and not wanting to fight them.

Where do you live that 6 gallons of milk is 3 bucks? Here in the USA where meat and dairy are heavily subsizied its anywhere from $2.50-3.50 per gallon of milk

Lentils nigga

.
>Then there's also the fact that vegetables are way cheaper per pound than any fastfood/tv dinners
As a poor person I can tell you that's not exactly true or simple.

Already exists, it's called "tropical countries".

I know that you stupid ponce, which is why I gave the figure for ARABLE land only.

Nice m8 I'm glad to see some take initiative in eating stuff other than kale and lettuce. What are some of your favorite plants?

Also I miss having a big peice of land to garden on, I use to manage a mycology program at a community college and I also helped out the garden. We had some great knowledgeable people there and every season we had a shit ton of food. Once I transfer to the university all they had was an abysmal garden which was riddled with Bermuda because nobody could be bothered to put in a little bit of work.

The art of a good varied garden is sadly one that is not practiced as much as it should be at least in the US.

Its because the idiots don't know how to take care of their plants besides putting them in pods. One way to reduce infestation right off the bat is having a good air flow ad well as not doing monoculture. Seriously it's amazing how well plants will do if you don't bunch up a shit ton of the same ones together or plants that have a similar predator. But the thing with hydroponic gardeners is that they tend to not think about those variables.

>More importantly, it boasts having a much smaller impact on the planet and climate, and many vertical farms are even backed by big investors, like Goldman Sachs.
Why am I not surprised?

when traveling in latam I talked with an american about hydroponics, he told me about aquaponics and it seems to me like the most effective way of growing in the future, it involves a closed biosphere where fish produce food for bacteria who in turn produce food for plants:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics

Yes it is.
Even in the US, with exceptionally cheap fast food, a big mac is like 8$/lbs. 8$/lbs is more than fresh chicken in a super market. A full chicken dinner with rice and vegetables is like half the cost of a big mac. And that's even without buying frozen

>good people trying to save the planet may suffer some health risks
what the fuck kek

>man who just won a billion dollars is having relationship problems

What both of you are describing is extremely expensive compared to conventional farming

Hydroponics is still a meme for at least another 30 years

Ya but poor people be working all the time and not a lot of time to cook.

>Ok, I was wrong but I'm still too lazy to cook food
There it is. This is why you deserve to be poor.

It's not even a valid argument: You can cook a huge batch that will last the entire week in 1 hour. 1 hour is less time than you spend buying fast food over a week. AND you save even more money on driving expenses. AND now that you're spending half as much money on food, you can work less hours