Start with the Greeks Book Club: Iliad

Days 1 and 2 will take place in this thread, allowing a wider range of discussion.

We begin today with the very first two "books" or chapters of the Iliad, gaining insight on how the war began and some of the leaders. Also how pissed Achilles can get. Tuesday we'll get into some action.

Supplementary reading is optional, after we do our read through of the Iliad, I'll fetch some extra readings for those who would care. Sharing your own supplementary reading is encouraged. Even if you've already read the Iliad, come take part in discussion.

Personally. I use the Fagles translation, but it doesn't matter honestly.

Discuss!

Other urls found in this thread:

mega.nz/#F!flYQGbzI!p1AFjtMuCLHQqocJqxV7rg
mega.nz/#F!ZAoVjbQB!iGfDqfBDpgr0GC-NHg7KFQ
theoi.com/
theoi.com/Ouranios/Mousai.html
library.newschool.edu/files/findingaids/benardete/SB_03_09_Homeric_Hero_dissertation.pdf
strawpoll.me/12017651
department.monm.edu/classics/Courses/CLAS210/CourseDocuments/Epic/HOMER.ImportantGreekTerms.htm
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

Little schedule made by a kind user.

>mega.nz/#F!flYQGbzI!p1AFjtMuCLHQqocJqxV7rg

Here is a link to a trove of historical information on all sorts of Greek era literature or historical background.

Here's 45 gigs of military history. Go bananas
>mega.nz/#F!ZAoVjbQB!iGfDqfBDpgr0GC-NHg7KFQ

Thanks for organising the club

fucking Agamemnon what a turbo autist

Book 1 down, shits good boys

OOooooo time to start!!

ill start today. abrupt start of this club, and way too many reading clubs on lit right now. i like it.

do share some supplementary material, im interested.

I've already started reading the Iliad before this, I am currently on book 10. I'll make sure to drop by and comment though.

The supplemental reading I was going to finish is a little extensive though. I really want to start with the greeks so im going all in.

>The Cambridge Companion to Homer
>Ancient Greece: A Political, Social, and Cultural History
>Simone Weil's The Iliad or the Poem of Force: A Critical Edition
>War and the Iliad
>The Trojan War: A new History

Are you really planning on going through all those? Surely just one book of supplementary reading would be enough?

Anyway, I'm in the same position as you actually. Just finished book 10 about an hour ago.

Fucc too many reading groups to keep up with.

just read Mythology by edith hamilton and trojan war: a new history. the new start with the greeks reading list floating around has far too high of a supplemental to actual greek reading ratio.

>pic related is the best list

Yes, I am for personal and specific reasons

Have already read Mythology, that should be read before Homer OR could be read alongside Homer. Anytime a god is mentioned it can be crossreferenced with the story about the god and its relevance. The list I gave was referring to what to read immediately after Iliad and before Odyssey. The Ancient Greece Book can be read at a slower pace because it covers Stone age -> Diadochi.

Speaking of supplementary sources, there is this very exhaustive encyclopedia on Greek mythology:
theoi.com/

For example here is the page on the Muses:
theoi.com/Ouranios/Mousai.html

Problem, Achilles?

>Starting with the Greeks
>easy inforgraphic floating around
>still manage to fail by not starting with Mythology by Edith Hamilton

How do you pronunce Agememnon, anyway? And also, do y'all say normally say "Aias" or "Ajax"?

Ag-uh-mem-non
Ey-jax

We're skipping those because that would take far too long. The discussion is aimed at the main canon works, leaving supplements to be optional to those who care enough

Agamémnon, with the stress on the é.

>thinking Mythology is supplemental to understanding the Ancient Greek corpus

A perhaps worthwhile supplementary reading, the classicist Seth Benardete's dissertation on the Iliad, "The Homeric Hero: Achilles and Hector", which contains a lot of provocative reflections on the epithets and the structure of the Iliad.

library.newschool.edu/files/findingaids/benardete/SB_03_09_Homeric_Hero_dissertation.pdf

Aias is the Greek name and Ajax I think the Latinate version? Certain translators favor Aias over Ajax, but as long as you know that the names are interchangeable it should be fine.

It is.

I appreciate this, thank you

No one cares dude.

enough with all these fucking book clubs and schedules

This is the whole point of Veeky Forums, reading.

and you need a group of internet friends to hold your hand in order to do it?

>wah stop discussing actual literature you're taking up space for my e-celebs and cool stax threads!1!

Fuck off.

Is Odysseus going to side with Aga or Achilles?

Don't think this is the beginning of some kind of civil war between two leaders of the Achaeans, there is only one and it's Agamemnon.

That said, Odysseus will be among those that try to bring Achilles back into the fighting later on.

What translation are y'all using?

I'm using Lattimore

An Italian translation

>45 gigs of military history

thank you based hesiod bust

What will we read after this? Are we going to work our way through the whole Greeks chart, meaning reading the Odyssey next?

Odyssey is the next, yes

Odyssey, then Hesiods Theogony and Works and Days. Of the group survives that long well move to the Theban plays and such

imo, Lattimore is my personal favorite. It may be a bit harder to read than Fagles (he uses alot of modern words that feel awkward for a 2700 poem), but he leaves every single detail in.

>start to read book
>remember I'm retarded
>can't follow anything
>stop half way through the first page to jack off

this is gonna be a long day

kek sounds like your attention span is fried, I used to be like that. Might wanna lay off the video games/tv/hentai kiddo, otherwise you'll never read anything.

who are you calling kiddo, bub?

fuck, seriously thinking about going with this...first translation I read of Iliad was 100% hot garbage and now I have the considered best translation on a PDF. Currently reading Ulysses, usually 1 chapter (40~50 pages) and KJV Bible, usually 5~20 pages a day. I think it would be doable to add 40~ pages of Iliad, especially since I am on vacation

guess I will try today

Curious to know... which translation is 'hot garbage', and which are you using now?

both are in portuguese (brazilian portuguese), my first language. the one considered 'best' is also the first translation of iliad and the odissey to portuguese (1874) and one of the very few translated directly from greek to portuguese, and the guy, Manuel Odorico Mendes, also translated the eneid

It really, really isn't. This isn't like "oh reading the Bible before X helps you understand it"; it's not supplemental, it's vital.

On what grounds is it vital lol

The poems are meat to be consumed by an audience who has a full understanding of Greek mythology. We as modern people lack such an understanding, and so reading Mythology is vital to really comprehending the meaning of the poem.

Where are some places that, without a full understanding of Greek mythology, you can't understand either poem?

i think 'understading' is way too relative and a bit vague. yes, you can understand the 'plot' of the iliad without knowing anything about mythology, but you won't understand the relations between gods and man and the reasons they are doing what they are doing.

>but you won't understand the relations between gods and man and the reasons they are doing what they are doing.

Can you give an example of where this is likely to happen?

Beginning of the Odyssey, who are Circe and Calypso? The Ancient Greeks would have known them well, and heard many tales of them. But we do not know them well. That's where Edith Hamilton's Mythology comes in. It covers both of them and countless others.

You want to use sources outside of Homer to learn about a pair of characters that are treated extensively in that very poem?

Wow Achilles is a fuckin nigger. The original primadonna. I'm on book 12 rn and I have to say that the fight scenes are a lot of fun. War is romanticized but Homer doesn't forget to illustrate the gore and casualties ever present in it.

The only annoying thing so far are Nestor's tales of his exploits.

Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?

Nestor's tales aren't made up. He references things such as Jason and the Argonauts, which were well known to the Greeks at the time.

And besides, Nestor is a top tier character anyway

>Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?

Are you referring to the lineages that characters declare at all sorts of different times?

Agamemnon is such a shit.
If I lived in a world where gods would just fuck your shit up because they didn't like you I think I'd be on my best behavior.

Why is Agamemnon so defiant towards the gods?
Is it because he has a master plan or only because he is a retarded fuck?

>Wow Achilles is a fuckin nigger. The original primadonna.
It's not easy to sell the idea of what an insult it is to Achilles ' honor being robbed like that to a contemporary audience. Honor is a big deal there.

>War is romanticized but Homer doesn't forget to illustrate the gore and casualties ever present in it.
But the gore and casualties are part of the romanticization. There is a pecularly Greek aesthetic of dying a beautiful death, which is why despite the years of tough fighting, you will read of so little wounded, and no mutilations or details of scars, even on experienced soldiers.

The Greeks don't have an aesthetic of wounded warrior manliness, made of missing eyes covered with eypatches, large scars, torn ears, etc. That's probably more to the taste of the Romans (source are the notes in my Italian edition of the Iliad if that wasn't clear) and contemporary folks.

The Greeks would rather have you be a handsome teenager boy, looking as beautiful like a statue that falls to ground, and to pieces, in a single instant.

Now, the relationship of fragility and beauty for poetic purposes is far from exclusively Greek, sure.

>Why did Homer decide to put in a bunch of references to people (I assume he made up) that have no bearing on the story?
Try to think about who would listen to Homer's tales. Namely, people from all over Greece. What you're reading is a "national" epic for a collection of city states. No wonder he features people from all over Greece in the book.

That's why we got two full books in the first place, and the more "local" poets came to us in tiny fragments, literal tatters.

And I wouldn't assume it's all stories the historical Homer made up by himself, rather he collected and put into hexameters.

That's his hubris.

Perhaps it's easier to fall into temptation and do something that offends the gods, when you're indeed a larger than life character, as the chief of the largest coalition of free men ever.

Often, gods liked pride but I agree he's hubristic

reminder that Helen was in Egypt while the war was taking place

Literally dumbest war ever. Trojans didn't hand her over because she wasn't there.

All the characters are one-dimensional. No self-overhearing, no change. Are they even human?

4/10

Fuck off, retard. If you don't like it, scroll past the thread like a big boy.

Fucking idiot.

>Literally dumbest war ever.
It's like somebody didn't want to admit this Trojan War business was a piracy operation gone tragicomically wrong.

>Helen was in Egypt
Euripides pls

>Are they even human?

>being a mortal
>ever
>>>/hades/

Some mortals can also fuck shit up for gods however. Keep reading, friend.

>was a piracy operation gone tragicomically wrong.

wow
bad luck for pirates
such tragic lol
wow

the modern day equivalent of the Iliad are somalis trying to hijack a US trade ship and getting owned

jesus christ this is awesome

Something to think about: are the gods or the men in greater part steering the direction of the story.

not OP, just curious. Pls answer.
strawpoll.me/12017651

I'm with you, user.
Already reading Count of Monte Cristo and War and Peace, i cant be joining another one.
But i think this is a great initiative. Good luck, anons.

Its no question that the actions and dispositions of Apollo, Hera, Zeus, etc directed the tides of war thus far.
However, I want to believe that due the fact that most divine interference which occurred was a result of man beseeching the Gods, or retaliation of the Gods against the actions of man, it was man directing their own fate.

This idea on the other hand can also be troublesome considering that in Greek mythos "fate" is observed as a divine force all its own which overpowers the will of even the Gods, ultimately leaving the direction history in the hands of neither God nor man.

So if Zeus is so powerful, why does he put up with Hera's bullshit so often?

you'd think he would just smite her and find a new queen.

Doesn't that assume:

1) Total homogeneity in the myths? Such that is contradicted by lines among the poets about how other poets speak differently about such and such figure, but how the poet writing/reciting is speaking the truth in comparison?

2) That Homer has nothing to contribute to the myths? And that both Homeric epics aren't primary sources for myths or for elements of myths?

There are some surprisingly funny bits in the Iliad.
In book 2 we have Odysseus smacking down a shitlord with a royal scepter.

something like this would probably work better at the beginning of a thread.
Oh well.

Zeus is a cuck. He's always like "Oh I'll smite you if you disobey" but he ever really does

>but he ever really does
Tell that to Prometheus.

I meant he says that to Hera

>strawpoll.me/12017651
If you're not going to post at the beginning of the thread at least put an image in your post so it catches people's attentions

Quality post, thanks for contributing user

also Achilles crying to his mommy after he gets cucked

>Eneid

>Book 2
>People star leaving
>Odysseus starts rallying the soldiers
>I'm getting excited
>Describes thousands of soldiers
>Holy shit this is going to be epic
>Suddenly starts talking about random generals i don't care about
>Put the book down
Fuck me

I haven't read Homer in a 3-4 years but I'll join in once you guys get to Hesiod.

How are you going to handle Plato? Please for the love of God don't just read The Republic.

I posted this recently which I feel narcissistic reposting ("I am so great" - me) but I feel like it might help if anyone is interested in interpreting obtuse-ass Dark Age Greek behaviour, re: Achilles:
>Actually it's more like he is caught between two equally strong duties, duties that for him are so strong and "objective" that it's like he's having to choose between killing his mother or killing his father, and he can't make either choice.

>Achilles also lives in an eternal present, where there is no "progression" through time or past-future line of events, but a static "now" that draws upon a living legendary past. That's why his dilemma, to choose between an anonymous life in the now and an eternal "life" via glory, is so strong - because to the Greeks both of these were "life," and they were supposed to be intertwined (your natural life is supposed to be establishing your glory and so your eternal life), but for Achilles they have been split, in a way that's basically incomprehensible for him.

Different interpretations obviously abound but this is the KIND of thing you want to be open to when reading something as culturally distant as Homer. Basically, "what if they were really, really weird and their worldview was really different from ours?" WHY did the author(s) choose to depict this specific dilemma or crisis in a story? What makes it speak to that culture and grab their attention?

Other things to think about while reading Homer:

- department.monm.edu/classics/Courses/CLAS210/CourseDocuments/Epic/HOMER.ImportantGreekTerms.htm

Stay with it user. the next few books are hype as fuck.
Maybe someone will post a poll at the beginning of the next thread. I doubt I'll be here when it starts.

My personal list:
"Mythology" by Edith Hamilton
"A Brief History of Ancient Greece"
The Iliad by Homer
The Odyssey by Homer
Theogeny, Works and Days by Hesiod
The Oresteia (Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers. Eumenides) by Aeschylus
The Theban Plays (Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone) by Sophocles
Medea by Euripides
The Frogs, Lysistrata, The Clouds by Aristophanes
Euthyphro, Apology, Crito. Phaedo, Meno, Republic by Plato
Metaphysics, Nicomachean Ethics, Eudemain Ethics, Politics by Aristotle

Everything else is good, but not necessary - I recommend returning to later

Histories and Persian War are essential

Histories and Persian War are neither good examples of history (as covered by the "Bfrief History) or literature (Like Homer, Hesiod, etc)

Homer's (and not just Homer) tales show that even in a world where Necessity (Ananke) and the three Moirai rule over everything, even the allegedly all-powerful Zeus, men can indeed make the difference, with their actions and choices.

Because the separation between man and god (particularly in mythic times where people even lift massive rocks, etc.) is not as great as with monotheism: not only gods can become men and live among them, but men can become gods and live among them, too.

Look at what started the war: a mortal choosing between three goddesses. All three used their powers to affect the contest: Hera would make Alexander Paris king of Europe and Asia, Athena offered wisdom and skill in war, Aphrodite the most beautiful woman to ever live.

The gods have their agendas and excercise their superhuman powers to their advantage, yes, but it's the mortal's responses that matter.

>So if Zeus is so powerful, why does he put up with Hera's bullshit so often?
They're husband and wife, brother and sister.

>you'd think he would just smite her and find a new queen.
...and now you know why Zeus cheats on her oh so much.

Has anyone got an suggestions for non-fiction/ textbooks to learn more about the Trojan War? I'd like to know more documented facts (I know there aren't that many) about the time when the Iliad is set.

>The Trojan War: A New History
>The Trojan War: A Very Short Introduction

Thank you.

It should also be mentioned that Achilles' life is destined to be brief.

I made another OP image for tomorrow, assuming there will be another thread. Use it if you want.

I'm literally sitting here with tears of laughter streaming down my face at how bungled this whole endeavour is. I cannot believe you've started with the Illiad instead of Hamilton's Mythology. It legitimately feels like some sort of joke.

Shut the fuck up

I can highly recommend downloading the Teaching Company's course on the Iliad and Odyssey if you really want to understand the Iliad and the Odyssey. Listening to the course my appreciation for the Iliad increased tenfold, the Iliad is a very complicated book which is hard to understand if you're not familiar with Greek terms such as Kleos and Time

I can highly recommend downloading a pdf of Edith Hamilton's 'Mythology' if you really want to understand the Illiad and the Odyssey. Reading the text, my appreciation for the Illiad increased tenfold - the Illiad is a very complicated book which is hard to understand if you're not familiar with, you know, the basic building blocks of all Greek thought, without which the text is as good as incomprehensible beyond the most meaningless superficial 'understandings'.

You know, I can understand the frustration with this, but Veeky Forums doesn't emphasize supplemental material enough in charts. There's alot in philosophy to be missed when you just read the major texts without the college classroom and outside sources. I took alot of political philosophy classes in college and it illuminated alot of arguments in philosophy that are not entirely overtly discussed in the works.

That said, Homer & alot of literature can be tackled by paying close attention and reading frequently.

I also want to point out that I think the old Veeky Forums is back. Patrician reading groups, daveposting at an all-time low, /pol/ posters disappearing en masse.

Please learn that it's 'a lot' and not 'alot' if you're going to use it so much.

t. autism

OP here. This's going pretty well, which is good. We're going to keep books 3 and 4 in this thread so we're not constantly on the move and we can source more info. It doesn't seem so cramped in the thread yet so we can just carry out day 2 here. I will make a new thread upon Wednesday morning for everyone

That said, 3 and 4 are pretty exciting and interesting. If you have time, check out some of the links I posted if you want to learn some history.

Also, it may be good to keep track of characters names at this point, too. If you want me to list them in the thread let me know. Thanks picture user for your work, and to all the anons contributing sources.

OP, you really, really should have organised Mythology first. It's alright so far you're in the early books, but as it progresses and gets more complicated, people are going to get lost and lose interest because it will fail to make a landing without that background.

Look, you're flat out admitting supplemental material was always vital - "keep track of characters names at this point, too".

You're doing pretty good, but starting with the Illiad was a grave mistake. A grave, grave mistake.