/wprg/ Day 19: War and Peace Reading Group

>And with a Frenchman’s easy and naïve frankness the captain told Pierre the story of his ancestors, his childhood, youth, and manhood, and all about his relations and his financial and family affairs, “ma pauvre mère” playing of course an important part in the story.

ma pauvre mere makes a comeback!

Is Pierre's sit down with the French officer like reminiscing about the times of peace?

Pierre has convinced himself through numerological calculations that he, “l’russe Besuhof” is destined to assassinate Napoleon. But on the way to carry out this task, he rescues a little girl from the flames of the burning city, saves an Armenian woman from looting soldiers, and is captured by the French. What is comical, even farcical, about Pierre’s heroism, and what does the episode underscore about the way Pierre lives his life?

Do you think Pierre's love for Natasha is the same divine love that Andrei discovered?

I don't think anything so purely good could ever come to Pierre. He seems destined for unhappiness.

I don't really believe in the divine love, even within the context of the story. Marya prays every day and she's got less to show for it than anyone. Divine love is only how the characters see their feelings. It is not whole and pure, because it is a human conception, and so it can be corrupted and is. Andrei felt a strong love for Natasha, but I believe his love too was corrupted in her betrayal.

So phooey for divine love. Even if Pierre should never have such a thing, it's not for any to hold, and he can grasp what best he can just as any will try.

We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.

Old OP here.

I think the best way to start discussion is to have arguments, on this particular website anyway. It's always better to make claims than to ask questions if we're looking for responses. And let's be honest, the more spurious and extreme the claim, the more likely it is to start discussion, (but this is something we should be wary of taking too far.) There's the old internet joke about how if you want to know something, it's better, rather than asking the question, to write out an obviously wrong answer on a board full of experts and wait for them to correct you. I think that's a principle that has relevance to sparking discussion on any part of the site. People definitely are more likely to respond to active claims than passive questions (which is why I stopped posting questions as well when I was still running the group).

And I just want to say thanks for taking over the group. You're a lot more put-together than I am (with the customized pics etc.) and you've done a much better job than I could have, especially how you've organized the catch-up days.

I suggest that to organize the discussion in a thread covering multiple days' reading OP could make 2-3 posts saying something like
"Day X reading, posts regarding pages y-z reply to this"
that way spoilers can be avoided and people can still read and contribute to the thread if they arent fully caught up

Have been listening to Mihail Glinka's (mid-1800s Russian composer) orchestral works while reading, would recommend.

The spoilers don't bother me for some reason.

Anyone ready for Napoleon to get BTFO?

Are people still with the group that aren't posting? Has anyone had to drop out?

Napoleon did nothing wrong.

I'm still here bb

Day 20.

The reading for day 20 is B4 Part 1 Chapter 1 through and including Chapter 14, pp. 1001-1056.

I always read the threads, sometimes i don't post.
Still reading with the group.

>They all knew very well that the enchanting countess’s illness arose from an inconvenience resulting from marrying two husbands at the same time, and that the Italian’s cure consisted in removing such inconvenience; but in Anna Pavlovna’s presence no one dared to think of this or even appear to know it.

Oh shit

>Moreover towards the evening, as if everything conspired to make Petersburg society anxious and uneasy, a terrible piece of news was added. Countess Elena Bezukhova had suddenly died of that terrible malady it had been so agreeable to mention.

OH FUCK

The Kuragins getting royally BTFO. Pray for Ippolit.

Today ended on too much of a cliffhanger, I had to keep going.

>praying for the shittiest family
They got what they deserved.

Me t b h

>Two more prisoners were led up. In the same way and with similar looks, these two glanced vainly at the onlookers with only a silent appeal for protection in their eyes, evidently unable to understand or believe what was going to happen to them. They could not believe it because they alone knew what their life meant to them, and so they neither understood nor believed that it could be taken from them.

Fuck...

Words read for day 20: 20,687
Time taken: 54 minutes

Total words read so far: 452,579
Total words in book: 563,286
Total time taken so far: 19 hours 22 minutes
Approximate total reading time: 25 hours

Does Tolstoy think all people are inherently good? He seemed to imply even the French soldiers regretted killing the "incendiaries", and that it was just the system doing the killing, not people.

Savage spoiler there mah dude.

Napoleon loses

I'm still here, I've just been reading ahead of the group. Almost on Part 2 of the Epilogue.

Welp, might as well kill myself.

Don't worry, he makes a comeback.

Catch-up day today. After this, we will have one more catch-up day at the end of Book 4, before the Epilogue.

Read for Day 21 if you are caught up already.

You definitely should read to part Two ASAP, as the last reading ended on a cliffhanger.

Hey guys, I'm the old OP for the Greeks reading group. which was a drastic failure due to people not committing themselves to the reading, autists crying about supplementary reading, and me being behind the threads and such because of the recent snow New York was struck with.

If I were to make another, would you guys be interested in coming in? I guess we'll have to slow down our reading so nobody complains and whines like the first attempt, and give people a week in advance to see if they want to do it.

Let me know.

It's really good timing because I was gonna read the Greeks this year anyway. I was bummed out about not being able to take part in your Iliad group because of time concerns but I'd be more than up for joining a group if you set up another one.

Two suggestions though: wait till we're done with these two groups and also spend more time getting a reading list planned out from the start in the general planning thread about the whole group.

I think it's better if the position of OP is just an elective pragmatic thing. If someone can't make the threads, as in your case with the snow, the people in the reading group should be able to organize and handle that. So don't worry about that. In a larger group it wouldn't be a problem.

Relevant reading group discussion thread

Russian Retreat

>Both armies began to move and rebuild. The Russian retreat was significant for two reasons; firstly, the move was to the south and not the east; secondly, the Russians immediately began operations that would continue to deplete the French forces. Platov, commanding the rear guard on September 8, offered such strong resistance that Napoleon remained on the Borodino field. On the following day Miloradovitch assumed command of the rear guard adding his forces to the formation. Another battle was given throwing back French forces at Semolino causing 2,000 losses on both sides, however some 10,000 wounded would be left behind by the Russian Army.

>The French Army began to move out on September 10 with the still ill Napoleon not leaving until the 12. Some 18,000 men were ordered in from Smolensk, and Marshal Victor's corps supplied another 25,000. Miloradovich would not give up his rear guard duties until September 14, allowing Moscow to be evacuated. Miloradovich finally retreated under a flag of truce.

History spoilers ahead Jesus dies.

French Retreat

>Sitting in the ashes of a ruined city with no foreseeable prospect of Russian capitulation, idle troops and supplies diminished by use and Russian operations of attrition, Napoleon had little choice but to withdraw his army from Moscow. He began the long retreat by the middle of October 1812. At the Battle of Maloyaroslavets, Kutuzov was able to force the French army into using the same Smolensk road on which they had earlier moved east, the corridor of which had been stripped of food by both armies. This is often presented as an example of scorched earth tactics. Continuing to block the southern flank to prevent the French from returning by a different route, Kutuzov employed partisan tactics to repeatedly strike at the French train where it was weakest. As the retreating French train broke up and became separated, Cossack bands and light Russian cavalry assaulted isolated French units.

>Supplying the army became an impossibility. The lack of grass and feed weakened the remaining horses, almost all of which died or were killed for food by starving soldiers. Without horses, the French cavalry ceased to exist; cavalrymen had to march on foot. Lack of horses meant many cannons and wagons had to be abandoned. Much of the artillery lost was replaced in 1813, but the loss of thousands of wagons and trained horses weakened Napoleon's armies for the remainder of his wars. Starvation and disease took their toll, and desertion soared. Many of the deserters were taken prisoner or killed by Russian peasants. Badly weakened by these circumstances, the French military position collapsed. Further defeats were inflicted on elements of the Grande Armée at Vyazma, Polotsk and Krasny. The crossing of the river Berezina was a final French calamity; two Russian armies inflicted heavy casualties on the remnants of the Grande Armée as it struggled to escape across pontoon bridges.

All from Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia

Pierre have a heart of gold, but it's too romantic in his ideals.
He always put in his head some epic tale about something he still have to do. Like the duel with Dolokhov, he couldn't kill the man. Or when he saw his first battle, so immersed in his ideal way of seeing things that he goes to the center of battle, in the middle of enemy fire, and looks like nothing is happening.

I think what's comical about Pierre's heroism is only when he forgets about the romantic story in his head that he takes some action. Here he is daydreaming about being a hero, but then he stop with this shit and do something. I think it's way of Tolstoy saying "Stop with this romantic bullshit, man. This doesn't exist, just do what you can in the moment and that's it."

That's what i get.

Yes, i think so.
I think Pierre gave some sort of divine love to Dolokhov when he didn't kill him.

I'm gonna read the garnett version.

As your first read through?

Day 21

The reading for day 21 is Book Four Part One Chapter 15 through the end of Part Two, pp. 1056-1108.

yep.

...

>>Prince Andrei’s little son was seven. He could scarcely read, and knew nothing. After that day he lived through many things, gaining knowledge, observation, and experience, but had he possessed all the faculties he afterwards acquired, he could not have had a better or more profound understanding of the meaning of the scene he had witnessed between his father, Marya, and Natasha, than he had then. He understood it completely, and leaving the room without crying, went silently up to Natasha who had come out with him and looked shyly at her with his beautiful, thoughtful eyes, then his uplifted, rosy upper lip trembled and leaning his head against her he began to cry.

The last couple of chapters in part 1 were brilliant. Part 2 was maybe the dullest yet for me.

...

...

Little shithead.

Day 22.

The reading for day 22 is B4 Part Three Chapter 1 through the end of Part Three, pp. 1109-1156.

Two days behind. Will catch up now.

Hey OP. You run the short story group as well right? Is that still going on? Last thread died.

I do/did. People seemed to consider it dead, both in the thread and in other threads talking about how it failed, so I wasn't sure if anyone wanted to continue. And the thread kept dying.

But as you've asked, here's the next story:

>Can't read other books.

Don't read multiple books at once then, pleb.

I prefer 2 novels at a time because sometimes I want to read but I don't want to read the one novel so I put off reading and end up reading nothing. Better to read a different book for a time than read nothing that day.

If you are more disciplined than me it's not necessary, but if you have ever had that feeling of wanting to read one of your many books but not the one you've chosen, you might consider just giving in and having two going.

Day 23: The End is Nigh

The reading for day 23 is B4 Part Four Chapter One through the end of Book 4, pp. 1156-1212.

Tomorrow, 1/16, is the final catch-up day.

>only 2
I like to have a math textbook, one other non-fiction, a "challenging" novel, then a couple of pulp novels all on the go at once, so I can choose what I want to read according to my mood and how stoned I am.

>can't handle more than one plot-line in his life
>calls others 'pleb'

>He tried to remember whether he had not done anything else that was foolish. And running over the events of the day he remembered the French drummer-boy. ‘It’s fine for us here, but what of him? Where have they put him? Have they fed him? Haven’t they hurt his feelings?’ he thought.

>'Ah, c’est vous!’ said Petya. ‘Voulez-vous manger? N’ayez pas peur, on ne vous fera pas de mal,’ he added shyly and affectionately, touching the boy’s hand. ‘Entrez, entrez.’
>'Merci, monsieur,’ said the drummer-boy in a trembling almost childish voice, and he began scraping his dirty feet on the threshold.
>There were many things Petya wanted to say to the drummer-boy, but did not dare to. He stood irresolutely beside him in the passage. Then in the darkness he took the boy’s hand and pressed it.
>‘Entrez, entrez!’ he repeated in a gentle whisper. ‘Oh, what can I do for him?’ he thought, and opening the door he let the boy pass in first.

Petya is so cute

R.I.P. In Pieces

>Petya came out, peered into the darkness, and went up to the wagons. Someone was snoring under them, and around them stood saddled horses munching their oats.

WHY I CANT BE FREE FROM THESE OATS!

"I am used to something sweet. Raisins, fine ones... take them all!"

Liek dis if you cri erv tiem

Catch-up day today.

>From that day a tender and passionate friendship, such as exists only between women, was established between Princess Marya and Natasha. They were continually kissing and saying tender things to one another and spent most of their time together. When one went out the other became restless and hastened to rejoin her. Together they felt more in harmony with one another than either of them felt with herself when alone. A feeling stronger than friendship sprang up between them; an exclusive feeling of life being possible only in each other’s presence.

Is there no end to the cucking that Sonya must endure?

Was Sonya punished for trying to determine her own destiny?
Instead of living her life day by say she clings to a promise made when she was a child. So, after pretty much sacrificing her life to accomplish the promise, she's getting owned by destiny.

>Karatáev looked at Pierre with his kindly round eyes now filled with tears, evidently wishing him to come near that he might say something to him. But Pierre was not sufficiently sure of himself. He made as if he did not notice that look and moved hastily away.

Oh god. Oh god....

Bump.

Hello friends! If some of you are interested in participating in another reading group, we are discussing various options in /comc/. The plan is personally nominate four books, the four most nominated books will move on to a strawpoll which will be held in 4 or 5 days

>Pierre had what the doctors termed “bilious fever.” But despite the fact that the doctors treated him, bled him, and gave him medicines to drink, he recovered.

top kek

>Pierre told of his adventures as he had never yet recalled them. He now, as it were, saw a new meaning in all he had gone through. Now that he was telling it all to Natásha he experienced that pleasure which a man has when women listen to him—not clever women who when listening either try to remember what they hear to enrich their minds and when opportunity offers to retell it, or who wish to adopt it to some thought of their own and promptly contribute their own clever comments prepared in their little mental workshop—but the pleasure given by real women gifted with a capacity to select and absorb the very best a man shows of himself. Natásha without knowing it was all attention: she did not lose a word, no single quiver in Pierre’s voice, no look, no twitch of a muscle in his face, nor a single gesture. She caught the unfinished word in its flight and took it straight into her open heart, divining the secret meaning of all Pierre’s mental travail.

>tfw you will never find a soulmate this genuine

Words read for day 23: 24,390
Time taken: 66 minutes

Total words read so far: 521,446
Total words in book: 563,286
Total time taken so far: 22 hours 26 minutes
Approximate total reading time: 24 hours

This is basically how I picture Andrei (Lee Adama from BSG).

...

Natasha is best girl

Arguably, the best novel ever written - and I do say arguably, carefully considering The Karamazov Brothers, 100 years of solitude, C&P, Lolita, Great Gatsby and Don Quijote.

I'm glad to see you youngins reading War and Peace. Gives me hope in your generation

War and Peace is the best novel I've ever read, though of those you listed I've only read the Great Gatsby which happens to be my second favorite.

If our tastes are at all aligned, I should hope I will enjoy the others!

Is 100 Years of Solitude really that good? I've seen mixed opinions of it on here. But as it were, people here tend to dislike Great Gatsby too, so I should probably not hold their opinions in too high esteem.

Though there are only about 10 of us, I'm sure it bodes well for the future of humanity.

thanks pops now go ahead and die we got this shht

Anybody else find that all the whinging about the faults of historians (ironically) hasn't stood the test of time, and consequently is a tedious read?

Yeah the great man theory is pretty much dead now, so reading so many pages about how wrong it is feels pointless

I liked them. Maybe I'm just not as caught up on current historical trends.

What part about it hasn't withstood the test of time?

see
It reads like a strawman, and if it were written today it would be.

So Spencer and Tolstoy (successfully) argued against the Great Man theory of the 1840s and possibly the beliefs held by the historians writing after the war up to that time. That seems to me like it HAS stood the test of time, no? I mean he's arguing on the right side of Great Man theory.

It's not like he's arguing for flat Earth theory and we're all shaking our heads wondering how he held such beliefs.

To me it all reinforces his views of fatalism while providing insight into the minds of soldiers, generals and the public of the time, and of Tolstoy's time.

Sure, good point. My main contention was with the tedium. I didn't need 30 pages solid of explanation of this argument after already having peppered the book with it.

I seem to be in the minority when I say this, but I quite enjoyed his discussions of the war, on the theoretical scale, the scale of the commanders, and the scale of the individual soldiers. This probably makes me more easily agreeable toward his lengthy historical discussions.

It seems like most people grew bored of some of the war sections, particularly at the higher scales.

The /comc/ thread is taking nominations, or has already, for a next read through.

The voting appears to be held here

Day 24

The reading for day 24 is Epilogue Part One Chapter 1 through the end of Part One, pp. 1215-1269.

Does anyone here have any nominations they'd like to make for the next read-through?

>At the Battle of Maloyaroslavets, Kutuzov was able to force the French army into using the same Smolensk road on which they had earlier moved east, the corridor of which had been stripped of food by both armies.

He really didnt
Napoleon won that battle and could have chosen any road but ge naively though he could spend the winter in Smolensk and took the same road

Did Kutuzov not block southern routes? It seemed to be part poor planning and part Kutuzov, though I gather that only from the book.

Wikipedia:
>Marshal Kutuzov arrived and decided against a pitched battle with the Grand Army the next day, and to retire instead to the prepared line of defense at Kaluga. The mainly French and Italian forces won a victory on the day, only to realize that "unless with a new Borodino" the way through Kaluga was closed. This allowed Kutuzov to fulfill his strategic plans to force Napoleon on the way of retreat in the north, through Mozhaisk and Smolensk, the route of his advance that he had wished to avoid.

I don't understand this passage.

>let us say that with guidance from those who blame [Alexander] and who profess to know the ultimate aim of the movement of humanity, he might have arranged matters according to the program his present accusers would have given him—of nationality, freedom, equality, and progress (these, I think, cover the ground). Let us assume that this program was possible and had then been formulated, and that Alexander had acted on it.

>What would then have become of the activity of all those who opposed the tendency that then prevailed in the government—an activity that in the opinion of the historians was good and beneficent? Their activity would not have existed: there would have been no life, there would have been nothing.

I don't understand what he means there. Is Tolstoy saying that the officials at the time would not have opposed the "good/right" option? No matter what route is taken, there will always be those on either side.

>If we admit that human life can be ruled by reason, the possibility of life is destroyed

2deep4u