As the old OP of the original instance of this group, I was disappointed in it overall. I reflected what could be done differently, and I propose these changes in this thread.
>Not starting with Hamilton's mythology, (x) history book This would be up to the individual reader. Having taught classics for a few years, I have not encountered a student who struggled with the mythology entwined in most classical Greek texts. I will provide the supplementary reading to those who would like it. >Too fast I will agree with this one. I was excited to see so many interested that I wanted to get a move on it! We'll slow down this time. We're going to take a week in this thread to discuss thoughts and scheduling for the group. >What if you get extirpated by snow again/unexpected events again? I will count on a member to pick up the torch and keep the threads running. As suggested, this wouldn't be a problem in that case >Autism, trolling, and purely negative criticism. What do? Perhaps a private chat group will have to do if things get out of hand again. That shit was ridiculous, guys. >What translation of Iliad? Most are public domain. Due to being translated, it will not matter much. >Too many groups, can''t choose one Greek texts translated pose not as a colossal feat. You can get through them
I hope this goes a lot more smoothly. I understand there were plenty of faults on my own, so here's to a better instance of the group.
Get in here boys. I propose the following order of readings for NOW: Iliad Odyssey Hesiod (Works and Days, Theogony) Sappho Aeschylus Sophocles: Oedipus the King; Oedipus at Colonus; Antigone; Electra; Ajax; Women of Trachis; Philoctetes. Aristophanes: The Birds, The clouds, The Frogs ...?
I hope to start next week, but we will see as a result of this thread.
>Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War (at least excerpts?) >Herodotus' Histories (at least excerpts)
Will post more thoughts later.
Jaxson Reyes
*raises paw*
I'm in.
Jace Sanders
Book 6&7 of Thucydides' History. We could cut it down to the more important parts if necessary, but this is the section that raises the big questions. The Melian Dialogue would also be pretty cash.
Kayden Harris
I'm in and a lot more hyped for this than I should be
Hope it all works out
Also I didn't realize OP had an actual background in teaching classics. That's pretty good
Also the closer we stick to one of the charts, the easier this will be to organize I expect. So we should look to that at least as guidance if not gospel
Evan Cook
I am too. I hope this doesn't go south. Really looking forward to discussion with you guys.
Do you mind posting the typical Greek chart here? I don't have it.
I'd say background + The Epic of Gilgamesh, which forms part of the foundation of western literature and precedes Homer.
Brody Sullivan
Whoa, nice dude.
OP I was in the last thread and I honestly couldn't tell if the Edith Hamilton's Mythology posts were trolling. I do not think the Iliad is a difficult text to research on your own, and a group reading of Mythology is utterly pointless. Most people have to read it in high school, it's short, it takes little reflection/ group analysis. There is nothing complex, there is no interesting discussion to be had, unlike the books that we tend to do group readings on. I made a bunch of points in that post trying to defend starting with the Iliad, which I think was a great idea.
The supplementary texts and amount of information on greek mythology are both accessible (in an intellectual sense of the word) and WIDELY prevelant, not to mention generally disseminated culturally in the west.
Sorry that that happened.
Nathan Brooks
I'll see about Gilgamesh. Start looking for online sources if serious about taking that up, I'll try too myself
I honestly thought so too. No student of mine has ever been so clueless as to recognize who "son of Cronus" is. But I do not want to be rude to those who are not well versed in such topics.
I would like to get right into the Iliad again and try through the canon. It just depends on how many we have that are struggling to recognize the names and references
Brody Williams
I like Stephen Mitchell's English version of the Gilgamesh epic. It's only 130 pages of double-spaced verse excluding the introduction.
Carson Miller
>Not reading Homeric Hymns >Not reading the Pre-socratics >Not reading Pindar >Not reading Aesop >Not reading Euclid, Pythagoras and other Greek Mathematicians >Not reading Fragments of Poetry
Sebastian Mitchell
I think an understanding of Ancient Greece is important to understanding their literature. MIT's course on "The Ancient World: Greece" uses The Routledge History of the Ancient World:
>Greece In the Making, 1200-479 BC by Robin Osborne (400 pages) >The Greek World 479-323 BC by Simon Hornblower (434 pages)
Other texts:
>Ancient Greece: A Very Short Introduction (216 pages) >The Rise and Fall of Classical Greece by Josiah Ober (448 pages) >Introducing the Ancient Greeks by Edith Hall (336 pages) >A Brief History of Ancient Greece: Politics, Society, and Culture by Sarah B. Pomeroy (416 pages) >The History of the Ancient World: From the Earliest Accounts to the Fall of Rome by Susan Wise Bauer (896 pages)
Hudson Anderson
this is nice, as I've used some of these in class, but some are a bit expensive and I don't want this group to have to be pay to participate, so to speak.
That said, if one of you finds a torrent, post it here. I'm hardly torrent-literate, I'm afraid, but I will learn.
Jason Murphy
What if I'm too dumb for the classics. I started reading Les miserables and I was never able to finish it
I've read Iliad and Odyssey. Also the trojan horse one
I know most of the gods but what are some other accessible Greek stories like the ones I said
Carter Gray
Every book I have named I can share the ebook of, so that is no problem. Bookzz and gen.lib.rus.ec have all of them.
Christian Thomas
>I've read Iliad and Odyssey. Also the trojan horse one
Kayden Collins
>Also the trojan horse one
please leave this thread
Jason Murphy
Nice chuckle boys. No worries user. Now's your chance to hop along your path to enlightenment.
This is absolutely wonderful. If that is the case, I would feel wrong not to delve into such works with you guys :)
John Foster
I seriously don't like the idea of background reading. We're not college students, a rudimentary understanding of Ancient Greece from skimming wikipedia or whatever is more than enough to understand the Iliad.
The supplementary material should be optional. Having to read 800 pages of history is going to put off all the potential newcomers and besides, our imperfect understanding of Ancient Greece also helps to fuel discussion.
Realistically speaking, I don't expect more than 10 people to take part in this. The current thread for the War and Peace reading group has 15 IPs. I doubt we will even have 5 when we're halfway through the Greeks which collectively are a lot longer than W&P. So let's not discourage newcomers with boring history books.
Brody Gonzalez
random question, which philosopher proposed the idea of time as a strung out infinite sequence? i want to say it was someone in response to Zeno's paradoxes but I could be misremembering
Jaxon Lopez
This is exactly what I've thought as well, but a large portion of people last thread whined about it. I'm right there with you.
Charles Gomez
Nothing to contribute except to say Im in, never participated in a Veeky Forums reading group before so im excited, especially since the Greeks are so fundamental! I actually have some pre req material to read to keep occupied until we lauch so some hype material!
One question though, my semester starts on monday, my free time is quite low with a physics undergrad, will i be able to keep up with this reading group with say 5 hrs of free time to read per week or will i need to find more time?
Luke Nelson
>What translation of Iliad? >Due to being translated, it will not matter much. What sort of classics teacher are you OP
Oliver Clark
1 hour per day to keep with the schedule
Cooper Bennett
Just picked these up 15 min ago, i'm somewhat ready to begin with the greeks
I suppose I am in, was planning on reading Mythology first but maybe I can read both at the same time
Alexander Nelson
so i have to find 2 more hours in my week, ty user
David Brown
user, the Iliads translations, in all my years, have all been relatively the same
Andrew Hernandez
This format is anachronistic. We're on a real-time web forum, not a women's library.
>There is a certain kind of thoroughness which is but the excuse for inactivity. Think of what Goethe understood about antiquity: certainly not as much as any classicist, and yet quite enough to enable him to engage in fruitful struggle with it. One -should- not, in fact, know more about a thing than one can oneself digest creatively. Moreover the only means of truly understanding something is one's attempt to -do- it. Let us try to live in the manner of the ancients – and we shall instantly come a hundred miles closer to them than with all our learnedness. Our classicists nowhere demonstrate that they somehow strive to vie with antiquity; that is why -their- antiquity is without any effect on the schools. -Nietzsche
Be a teacher, not a medium, OP: have a purpose, select, excerpt, interpret; focus on the living types. Use links, ebooks, images, video, memes. Asceticism is decadence: making it essential not to be left behind at the start, slogging through lengthy material without a goal (except '_ in itself'), making a dichotomy between context and works. A mishmash of university and leisurely reading.
Why not make the Greeks Veeky Forums's own, if you genuinely want to teach? All I can foresee here is indigestion and deaths.
Juan Bell
...
Jack Sanders
Yo need more ppl in on this
Kayden Lee
there will be more soon. All the groups are coming done. I would be happy with even 10 people
Tyler Bell
I'm in. Seems like a great list. I'd like to see at least one more lyric poet though. It might be interesting to have someone to compare Sappho with.
Bentley Murphy
Maybe is he referring to the aeneid? The trojan horse does make a cameo there.
Hudson Cox
What would sex with Aphrodite be like?
Austin Hall
Any recommendations on critical commentary of the Iliad and/or the Odyssey?
Benjamin Collins
OP, don't let them start on Aristophanes until they've read some Plato. And then don't move on from Plato until they've read Xenophon's Socrates to compare.
And how the hell are you going to get all the way to Aristophanes before introducing any history? Thucydides is boring as hell to most non-classicists, but I think everyone can enjoy Herodotus, plus the Solon/Croesus bits get referenced throughout Western literature.
>sorry if these points were already made; I am about to close Veeky Forums and didn't have time to read the thread
Brody Young
Keep it up there boys
Are we okay with starting next Friday? Does this give everyone time to get the book/download it and make room in schedules?
Aaron Perez
I'm good for next Friday, gives the weekend to get a good start. Are we doing 2 books a day or less this time?
Jaxon Barnes
Divine.
Jacob Edwards
I was aiming for the two a day, but we need to discuss this. Also, we'll make up a schedule
Cooper Miller
I would prefer 1 a day but if everyone else is okay with 2 I'm cool with it
Parker Martin
they're easy reads, they shouldn't be too hard to plow through and each is only 30-50 pages
Wyatt Evans
Yeah that's fine man, sometimes just get a bunch of uni work and end up a day behind
Sebastian Wood
Would like to read the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid soon. Which translations would you all suggest and why? I don't want to buy Fagles just because it's the one in the chart.
Gabriel Reed
I've never read any epic poetry before. Is the style easy to get used to?
Kayden Bailey
Yeah. You'll be fine. There's less focus on pure form than in most other forms of poetry, so even if you dislike poetry in general you should still be able to get something from epic poetry, which, at least in its classical form, is as narrative as most novels
Connor Moore
OP, you still there?
Any recommendations for commentary on the Iliad and Odyssey?
Jack James
In the back of Fagles' Iliad is a list of suggested reading. However I'm not sure which of them is best.
Bentley Ward
I have tons my man. I'll post en soon
Jayden Lewis
I found a few as ebooks. How are the recs coming?
James Roberts
I thought the Edith Hamilton's book was going to be shit and I'm glad I was wrong.
It's a treat.
William Lee
Their texts don't exist anymore, if they ever did. This is like saying "I want to read Socrates." If you want to read about the seven sages, Dioegenes Laertius is probably your best bet, and there are some scraps in Diodorus Siculus.
The Homeric Hymns are fine if you want more mythology and want to read more """Homer"""
Pindar is good but repetitive
Aesop is good but not significantly "Greek"
The mathematicians are insignificant to read
Agree with you on the poetry, Oxford's "Greek lyric poetry" has a solid collection; Sappho would be worth reading more fully.
"The world of Odysseus" "War and the Iliad" Cambridge companion to Homer
t. Greek/Roman fanboy, might reread Homer with you guys but otherwise will just be peeking in and giving advice/recs if desired.
Benjamin Young
Thanks. Apparently an essay called "The Iliad or the Poem of Force" is also really good.
Evan Watson
Yeah that's one of the essays contained in "war and the iliad."
Joseph Clark
im new to this how will you teach us?
Lincoln Allen
tfw know ancient greek but at a tree sloth's reading speed
Anyway this sounds cool I'm in. I never actually read much in the language or in translation.
Cameron Edwards
I want in! Though I will be doing my reading in my mother tongue, sorry.
Michael Garcia
Get an easier translation then dumbass
Camden Barnes
Ok, I'm in. Sounds great.
Brayden Moore
>tfw I can't read these books in my Native language and have to read them in English instead.
And yes, they are translated to my native language
Gavin Russell
What do you mean Aesop isn't "significantly Greek?"
Cameron Gray
Bump!
So what book do we start with? And what history book or companion book we should we read along with?
Blake Perez
Mythology is very easily digested, reading both at the same time wouldn't be difficult at all.
Nathaniel Nelson
>I don't want to buy Fagles Fagles is really good though
Jackson Russell
Hello Veeky Forums Why does will not contract into won't instead of win't
Logan Diaz
Any idea on start date? Excited for this btw
Julian Reed
Nobody resolved this
Blake Reyes
The Iliad.
I'll post a mega that Veeky Forums has that has TONS of background for those who care
I'm hoping this upcoming friday. Gives people enough time to get their books and such, and also waits for the other large groups to fade away to this one
Iliad is kickass. You guys are gonna love it. Can we discuss scheduling? What's it going to look like?
go away you meme
Brayden Taylor
His fables are great (definitely not suggesting otherwise), but there is little in them to give insight into specifically Greek culture. They tend to be much more general stories with stronger links to folk tales across the world than to other Greek works.
Carson Wood
I'm currently on book 4 of the Iliad and book 3 of Gilgamesh (Michell's translation).
Iliad is so much better, and I'm not even reading that great of a translation (Lombardo, because I like Hackett)
Michael Wilson
The first time I read the Gilgamesh epic I found it rather boring and uninspired. Then I read it another time years later, Mitchell's English version, and it came alive to me. And reading his introduction helped me a lot to gain even deeper understanding of it.
It might take more than one read to appreciate, and perhaps some time in between.
Know that you are holding and reading one of the first stories ever written down in this universe. A story from a civilization that is vastly different from our own, but filled with people who too sought meaning in life and death, and through mythology, through this epic, came to try to understand their role on Earth.
Luke Jones
I just finished the Iliad, do I go directly to the homeric hymns or The Odyssey?
Nathaniel Roberts
Also I'm thinking about getting some secondary literature, but I'm not really sure how "necessary" it would be for Homer since Fagles gave a really good introduction.
Usually I'll get a companion reader if it's something really hard to digest.
Justin Hall
Fuck me. I hate choice.
I would like to start with the Greeks but I wish there was one globally accepted reading order including secondary texts. All the different opinions in this thread make my head hurt.
Logan Hughes
Secondary literature must come from what the reader is interested in about a text, it can't be proscribed from above.
Mason Ross
Secondary reading is unnecessary if you have a brain and know how to use google.
Ian Reyes
Agreed. The works of Simone Weil and M.I. Finley are of no consequence to anyone with a brain.
Joseph Thompson
Secondary reading LISTS are unnecessary, but a good book will always be more informative then what you can find on a google search
Austin Rodriguez
Read the Odyssey next. Homer almost certainly didn't write the "Homeric" Hymns; even not considering authorship, they're on a very different stylistic level than Iliad/Odyssey, and are best read as secondary to the main epics. With that said, if you like Homer, definitely read the Hymns. They're of varying quality, but are a quick read and some (Hymn to Hermes especially IMO) are very funny.
Fagles' introduction is great. If you want to read secondary stuff in depth, consider what I mentioned above , but IMO your intro is totally sufficient for a first reading of Homer; maybe read more when you revisit him eventually.
A big point of "starting with the Greeks" is developing the skills to gather, sift through, and judge between many different sources. The Greeks are relatively simple in that regard, since there isn't TOO much primary content, and wading through it will give you the experience you need to better tackle later historical periods/major literary sources/new genres. You CAN brute force the Greeks and just read effectively everything; you can't do that with modern historical sources, with modern literature, etc. There's just too much to look at. You need to develop the skills to be judicious, to be able to say "This might be a bit interesting but isn't worth the time it would take; I'll look for a more directly relevant source."
Case in point, the comment I just made to the user considering secondary sources on Homer. Is it worth reading 15+ essays in a 400 page Cambridge Companion if you just snapped shut the Iliad? Probably not. Probably you'd get more out of digesting Homer and rereading him (maybe in a different translation). Probably you'd get more out of reading some intro histories of Greece, reading some Hesiod to peek into the "little brother" great epic poet, or even some other genres of Greek writing to get a better handle on the culture, ideals, way of life, etc.
The point of the Greeks is not (only) to know "the Greeks." It's to be able to abstract from them, to grasp universal historical themes from their histories, universal literary themes from their poetry, and universal facets of human nature and the human condition from their way of life.
Adam Wood
Very good post, thanks senpai
Samuel Butler
That user is completely fucking retarded so don't listen to him.
Caleb Roberts
Argue against my points then m8
I welcome the discussion
Ian Rodriguez
Were Achilles and petroclus gay for each other???
Thomas Ross
Were Achilles and Patroclus gay for each other???
Levi Thomas
why would you delete a shitpost m8
James Robinson
No they just loved each other and had sex with each other.
Matthew Adams
i'm in
James Wilson
What edition or translation of the anabasis should I read?