With the rise of vertical areoponics, 3d bioprinting, and renewable energy...

>eliminate scarity first
the technology and resources exist to create a world with no scarcity where everything is produced so efficiently that it would be absurd to expect payment for anything.

the problem is that the means of production is owned by the 1% and they will not give anything for free and would rather see the 99% die of starvation before allowing for a scarcity free egalitarian society.

You are so completely full of shit, and that sentence such a mishmash of crap I feel a need to respond. Unlike on /pol I think this board may actually be able to understand the failure from the start of a Proxy Currency system.

1. We have a system that aspires to Interdependence through Trade.
2. Trade is Supply/Supply
3. The "Value" of trade is not a macro concept because trade is for the individual good. You trade your surplus for what you don't make yourself according to what you need or want. There is no macro value to anything.
4. To facilitate trade we create a PROXY to trade called Capital. This Proxy CAN have a value but it is not the same value as trade. It is divorced from any reason to trade.

5. So Proxy Trade becomes Supply/Proxy/Supply. This is important because it is in this dynamic that all of the lies are perpetrated.
(cont)

>the problem is that the means of production is owned by the 1%
I dont know where you live, but I live in a democray, my leaders are elected by the people. So here, the means of productions are owned by the 100% (minus children)

Now to you.
Your first statement of “value due to comparison of currency” equivocates "value" of Trade with "value" of Proxy, but still essentially agrees that there is no macro value. That I’ll give you. But your reason behind that is completely wrong.

Your second statement about Supply and Demand (and competition and marketplace) determining value is absurd.

Supply doesn't determine price according to demand. That is invoking the Law of Conservation in a system where Supply is created and controlled by the Seller in a complex function to Maximize Profit.

The Seller Maximizes both the difference between his cost and the sales price (profit margin) by setting both his supply level and his asking price according to a variable demand, AND the Maximum total Sales as limited by the competition's part of the total sales. You not only applied a physical law to an agreement, you neglected to inform your reader of the very important point that Price and Supply are set by the seller for the sole purpose of Maximizing Profit. This is a non-linear partial differential equation that cannot be solved except by the Heuristics of trial and error.
To think that Supply and Demand sets price is less that sophomoric. It’s stupid.
(cont)

cool, so i have a supply of programming skills and demand of hamburgers
what do i do?

The First Elephant in the room.
If the Proxy is to Trade, then how can you sell the Proxy itself for Profit by loaning money, or investing money and getting a return that is greater than what you put in and still have it be a Proxy to Trade?

By getting any return on investment, you sell the Proxy as a Trade and get more Proxy back than when you started. This is a DIVERGENT FIELD. You SOURCE Proxy, and when you trade it back on the Proxy/Supply part, you SINK Trade. Any Investment makes more Proxy than Trade, which is the case right now with the Stock Market.
It is a paradox to say Proxy determines Value when the Proxy erodes the value it is determining.

Now to the second elephant in the room:
Proxy Trade is Supply/Proxy/Supply. Classical Economics only talks about the first part - Supply/Proxy – and ignores the second part – Proxy/Supply. That is a rhetorical Shell game that makes "equilibrium" absurd. Without a Buyer with something to trade back, the Seller has no value. As the Buyer’s ability to buy back and complete the trade is eroded, the seller’s value decreases. Ignoring the Buyer in Supply and Demand equations is classical economic bullshit.
(cont)

just because you have democracy doesn't mean you don't have capitalism. Unless you live in one of the absurdly small number of countries that don't operate under the free market capitalism system then the situation I described applies to you.

The third Elephant in the Room is Crossing Production with Consumption.
Production can only be Proxy valued by a final Trade of what it produces that is consumed, so how can you sell a company, issue stock in a company, or pay a wage when none of those ends in the consumption equation that values the Proxy by trade?
This too Diverges the Proxy.
Only a fucking idiot can look at the history of capitalism all the way back to ancient times and not see the scam for what it is.
Capitalism is a Non-Martingale game designed to make the wealthy wealthier at the expense of those who actually trade goods. That’s how the game of Monopoly works.

As for you: scarcity is planned by a system that doesn’t reward surplus. There is plenty of everything for everyone as evidenced by a 40% food waste, a 90% energy waste, and a 98% land waste.

Corruption doesn't exist because of currency, it exists because it's part of human nature you dumb goon.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

>There is plenty of everything for everyone as evidenced by a 40% food waste, a 90% energy waste, and a 98% land waste.
Let me guess, the fact that solar panels convert only 22% of their available energy into electrical power is also a part of the conspiracy that doesnt reward surplus?

>American who doesn't understand economics and private property law

no one was surprised by this

there are so many board on Veeky Forums, why does Veeky Forums get all the leftist nutjobs? go shit up pol or something

>Eminent domain is the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use.
>However, this power can be legislatively delegated by the state to municipalities, government subdivisions, or even to private persons or corporations, when they are authorized by the legislature to exercise the functions of public character.[1]

There is no such thing as human nature. You have to have stories to make stories but the stories you have limit the stories you can make. The story of the collective self could not be possible if corruption was the norm.
If anything, Humans are the opposite. It is just that we have a system - a story - that rewards the corrupt.

Change the story you have and you can make new stories and see if the World allows them.

You are confusing waste. It is the sale of food that wastes 40%, not the physics of growing and transporting food. By pricing too high and supplying only the highest cosmetic quality, and having a system that does not look at need, but only the ability to pay, food is wasted.

The solar panel is as efficient as it can be.
The economic system is not. It is efficient for profit of the Proxy to value, not the actual goods traded.

Don't be such a pedantic ass that you can't see your own fallacy before you post....

the use of currency extends way beyond those things.

>not understanding the circumstances under which the application of eminent domain would be upheld during an appeal in federal court.

>federal court
so, you mean, the government, and thus the people decide if capitalist gets to keep his "property" or not?

>and having a system that does not look at need, but only the ability to pay, food is wasted.
without money, how do you determine need?

>so, you mean, the government, and thus the people decide if capitalist gets to keep his "property" or not?

no they don't because the constitution protects private property ownership.

constitution can be changed by two-third majority

>thinking politicians will ever do anything except the bidding of the ultra wealthy

you are constantly moving the goalpost

>you are constantly explaining why I'm wrong
ftfy

please answere this

not me friend

oops wrong one

Most scientifically literate people are left leaning.

>Most scientifically literate people are left leaning
(citation needed)

spoiler: you wont find one

I think you don't know shit about money.

Money are just IOU markers whose value is widely respected. You give money to someone who you have indebted yourself to and they can turn in that money to a third party in return for services.

Trustworthy payment is really important to have for any kind of civilization or no one will ever do anything for people they don't know and whose cows and corncobs they don't need.

Those things might let us support a larger population, but when the population was lower we still needed currency.

not him but because you cant really measure "scientific literacy".

but there are studies that the further your education goes, the more liberal you become. ill try and find them

No.
Currency is just an efficient way of allocating resources.
Don't think of currency as "what can I get"
Think of currency as what it stops dumbasses from saying they want something, swamping up production unnecessarily, then accidentally producing far more or less of that thing you need wasting resources
Think of currency as "what can my dumb ass not afford"
You'll notice that with as hard currency economy is replaced with a credit/debt based economy you have a lot of dumbasses requisitioning things they can't afford, screwing up resource allocation, and thus ruining the economy and causing recessions/depressions.

Currency won't ever go away for this reason, though the means of acquiring currency may change. Maybe from private employers allocating currency as it is right now to a mix of government and private employers both.

With money, how do you determine need?

those who are willing to pay the price, are in need

>So long as money exists so will corruption.
>Any thoughts?
Yeah. You're an idiot. Corruption exists independently of money.

Even in Star Trek they used currency.

It's important to remember that need is not binary. You need some things more than you need other things. For example, you need food and water a lot more than you need a new iPhone.

Currency allows a person to communicate to the economy the proportionate value they put on their various needs. Of course, there is also the other side, which explains why water isn't the most expensive thing in the world; supply. A surplus of supply reduces prices by allowing competition.

In this way, currency determines both need of consumers and need of producers and elegantly finds an equilibrium. The variables and many actors involved make it impossible for any individual or organization to ever solve these problems in real time. The only possible solution would be some sort of insanely powerful supercomputer artificial intelligence, but even a system like that would need to poll people to find out their proportional desire for things

>the technology and resources exist to create a world with no scarcity

This is not true. A lot of people desire things which are extremely labor intensive and expensive to produce, or of which there is only a limited amount on Earth. So long as there is 1 original Mona Lisa and 2 people who want the original Mona Lisa to hang in their parlor, there will be scarcity.

DS9 is shit and doesn't count. No they don't.

>as long as people exist so will corruption

FTFY

But Jake Sisko talks about having no money because he's federation in DS9...

block chain currency will be a large step towards a moneyless society
capitalism is it's own gravedigger desu

kys commie
All technological advancement so far has only increased the need for and transfer of capital. Why would increased productivity of agriculture and manufacturing industries change this? Why would cheaper power change this?

Money and prices act as a form of market control.

currency isn't a problem
currency is a solution to a lot of problems

time to eat the bait
No, the need for currency will never, under any circumstance, disappear
Man A has thing A, Man B has thing B
Man A wants thing B, but man B does not want thing A
How would man A get the thing he wants?
he gets it through use of money, since both can agree that thing B holds this particular amount of value, value that can be exchanged through currency

if you cannot comprehend this, you are literally dumber than a child in kindergarten

why would you want a thing a person makes when super-intelligent robots make everything so efficiently that they cost nothing?

>t. inverse spectrum nutjob

Uh no. This is entirely an us vs them problem.

age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/sherif_robbers_cave_experiment.html

Societies have existed without currency
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order

>but my thing will totally happen if we have magic
matter is finite, there will always be a cost attached to something, no matter how efficient your manufacturing, as material costs will always be a thing
if there are costs, those costs need to be paid, somewhere down the line
it just so happens that the consumer of the product in question is a good point to have those costs paid back

in some places fresh clean water is so plentiful that they don't charge money for it.

and in places where it is not, those materials have costs
water is a common thing, other things are not

>post scarcity is a pipe dream everything will always have a cost
what about this thing that is free because its not scarce?
>not everything can be post-scarcity because that's just the way it is. even if some things are post scarcity other stuff will never be

that's called moving the goal posts.

>we can totally have post scacity, we just need super robots that make everything out of nothing
>water is free in certain locations, so the entirety of a society have absolutely everything for free
no u

>So long as money exists so will corruption
money isn't the cause of corruption, human nature is

the utility that money gives to the user is too great to simply give up. the value of currency does not lie in its worth compared to goods, but in it's role as a medium of exchange. without some sort of currency, the only other option is a barter system, and under a barter system, the costs of undergoing even the most simple transaction are magnitudes higher

Call me when we have vertically farmed headless livestock