Does any literary sci-fi exist besides pic related?

...

I don't see botns as sci fi in the least bit. I mean sure it has lasers and ayyliens but the actual meat and structure of it is fantasy to the core. It's far more interested in playing with our understanding of storytelling and myth than any speculative questions like "what if the whole planet was gay and aliens watched so they could beat off?" and it doesn't spend every other paragraph explaining in autistic detail how everything works.

That's a really shit book cover; book deserves better

Can you elaborate on that? If you're a Christian then what do you not like about him from a political standpoint? The somewhat favorable view of monarchy and torture?

> I also find some of his later plot to be a bit silly

Which books are you referring to? I've only read BOTNS.

Assuredly, literary SF exists outside of Gene Wolfe. Here are a handful of novels that come to mind.

The Left Hand Of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin. Androgynous hermaphrodites on an arctic world are visited by a male envoy who wants to invite them into a federation. Told from the P.O.V. of said envoy, and a native disgraced prime minister, between fables.

Dying Inside by Robert Silverberg. A middle aged telepath, who ghost-writes college papers for a living, must come to terms with losing his powers. Narrated in a slick first person style that is interspersed with transcendental mind reading passages, and interludes on Greek writers.

JG Ballard - The Drowned World. A post-global warming narrative that emphasizes the surreal beauty of life amid a drowned city, and the languorous (psychologically regressive) nature it imposes on some survivors.

Earth Abides By George R Stewart. A post-apocalyptic novel where the protagonist seeks to rebuild society using his anthropologist knowledge. Features extensive passages of decay, pestilence, unbounded wild growth, and reflective moments that ruminate on the usefulness of passing on knowledge, history, and religion, with reference to Ecclesiastes.

Strugatsky Bros, Hard To Be A God. Soviet era SF about a primitive extra-terrestrial society being observed by academics from Earth who live clandestinely among them. Deliberately combines swash-buckling genre trappings from Dumas (sword fights, debauchery, frail heroines) with philosophical passages; about the nature of development, the role of history, and the morality of a good man in a hostile environment.

this is literary sci fi

True, it saddens me how little good art there is for BOTNS, it has so much potential. I still like the Shadow and Claw cover though.

Yes it's his views on monarchy and torture primarily, and I'm probably not quite as Conservative as Wolfe is in a lot of regards, although I don't know enough about him to be sure.

For me, at least, The Urth of the New Sun throws out a lot of what was good about BotNS, since it is much more sci-fi.

Wolfe? neat.

Yes
Plenty
Literary SF has existed since the 1950s

I have heard that about UOTNS, which is why I haven't read it. I don't want it to ruin what I loved about BOTNS.

Go to bed Margaret

its not fantasy, it is Clarkes 3rd law in action
>any science sufficiently advanced would be indistinguishable from magic
Severain and the rest don't realize the towers are space ships, the knight in white armor with a gold helmet is an astronaut, etc
But that doesn't mean its fantasy just because the characters don't know

You definitely shouldn't, having read it the appreciation I had of Wolfe (which as I said was limited due to political differences) was spoilt somewhat. I'd hasten to add that none of what I have said means I don't like Wolfe, by and large he is a good author, and certainly better than the likes of the hack Moorcock.

Post an example faggot

burden of proofs on you

When I first read Book of the New Sun I thought he was using some of the USAs meddling in Central and South America as inspiration, especially given it was written at the start of the 1980s
And I read he was a Catholic so I thought that confirmed it
Then I read of his views on William F. Buckley so then I didn't and still don't know what to think

I've never seen any other views of his, he doesn't discuss them

The only other strongly expressed views of his I can think of is an interview where the possibility of a 4th Latro book was discussed and he said it was a categorical fact that the Egyptians went to the Americas
And also said Lamarck might of got it right but is tarnished by the Soviets using his work
So
He wasn't satirizing it
He was recreating it
>Yes it's his views on monarchy and torture primarily
Ah yes
If a character says or does something
This MUST reflect the views of the writer

What political difference

A character Wolfe consistently glorifies and who is his mouthpiece to an extent? And the views on monarchy, to me at least, seem fairly obvious. That said it is true that he had some strange views.

Proof for what? I'm not saying there isn't literary sci-fi, I'm saying you should back up your claim with an example.

>constantly glorifies
how?
>who is his mouthpiece to an extent
how?
>And the views on monarchy
what?

This is babbys first critical analysis.
You are assuming that the views and values of the character must represent the authors

What's with all the hate for Moorcock itt? I've only read Behold the Man but I found it quite potent in its fatalistism, and appreciated the existential undertones as well. I get that it's blasphemous, but I find it silly to hate a work of art because it doesn't align with your ideology. I say this as an agnostic strongly considering a return to the church.

>blasphemous
>agnostic strongly considering a return to the church.

when will the Veeky Forums nu-religious meme die?

which of his views do you think are strange?

also do you mean wolfe or severian? their opinions don't always match.

>he said it was a categorical fact that the Egyptians went to the Americas
>And also said Lamarck might of got it right but is tarnished by the Soviets using his work

He provided a pretty solid argument to justify torture in I think the third book that was never really refuted. And the Autarch flat out says that democracy and socialism failed so they were forced to resort to monarchy to reach the stars. This doesn't bother me because I'm right wing but the text pretty clearly looks on moarchy and torture more favorably than most people would.

>also do you mean wolfe or severian? their opinions don't always match.
>characters dont reflect the authors views
get a load of this shitlord

Not while /pol/ leads Veeky Forums's trends, or while Trump and Moldbug/Bannon influences the working class right's views on politics and religion.

I don't like the trend but you really ought to get used to it.

Unironically Kafkaesque

>implying Veeky Forums isn't the most sincere board on Veeky Forums
>implying we aren't genuinely filled with Christians
>implying we haven't had theology and religion threads for years, long before /pol/ achieved its current form

>And the Autarch flat out says that democracy and socialism failed so they were forced to resort to monarchy to reach the stars
>characters views and statements reflect the authors beliefs
The Autarch also believes he has to be castrated if he cant pass the tests of UOTHS

You think Severian is fucking glorified?

You think the Underground Man reflects Dostoevsky, don't you.

I mentioned this to someone else but the Autarch flat out says that democracy and socialism failed so they were forced to resort to monarchy to reach the stars. The pro monarchy themes seem pretty obvious.

I wasn't the other user you blundering retard.

Olaf Stapledon seems pretty neat, from what I've been reading. The fact that Borges admired him should tell you all you need to know.

Characters also engage in Cannibalism
Does this mean Wolfe believes in that too?

RE: monarchy versus other forms of government.

This is something LeGuin speculates about in Left Hand Of Darkness, in the depiction of a monarchical society and a more materially advanced (and vaguely degenerate) beurocracy.

>characters views and statements reflect the authors beliefs

If the character is portrayed in a positive light then it is very likely that their views reflect the authors. For example, do you really think a lefty would make a heroic protagonist a major racist or sexist?

>The Autarch also believes he has to be castrated if he cant pass the tests of UOTHS

How is this relevant?

Not a meme friend. I no longer have the confidence in atheist ideology I once did, and am beginning to view the existence or non-existence of a higher power as beyond the epistemological limits of mankind. And in areas in which we will never truly 'know,' I don't see faith as an irrational response. I just don't know if I'm willing to commit to that either.

Cannibalism isn't a political issue so that's not relevant. Wolfe knows that nobody would ever think he support cannibalism, so there's no problem writing it. If he writes something that's anti-Democracy and socialism and pro-torture then he knows he's inserting himself into a political debate.

Some of you in this thread are taking the "character views =/= author views" thing too far. If the events of the book don't reflect the beliefs of the author at all then why would they write it, unless it's just for entertainment and isn't literary. In which case we should stop discussing it in this thread about literary sci-if.

Daily reminder than Michael "Morecocks please" is a hack.

Can you back that up with a substantive argument?

Moorcock wrote one, it's called the Elric series.

Well, he is on a par with the likes of Robert Howard. Moorecock has a spunky exuberance, you might say,

You could have just said
>no, I cannot

If you aren't intelligent enough to discuss literature, please refrain from attempting to do so.

>tfw you realise OP probably did this to make a science fiction general [spoilers]away from the fantasy fags in SFFG[/spoiler]

I think, if we DO hate Moorcock, it's due to /pol/ leaking. Moorcock's Elric stories are sendups of Conan that subvert and undermine the Nietzschean strongman aspects of Howard's stories.

Come to think of it, /pol/ should read the Conan stories. They'd probably love them.

What's everyone's opinion on Urth of the New Sun? Should I read it (or Long Sun and Short Sun) after finishing BotNS?

I do too, but the cape clearly isn't fuligin, it's just black; it has visible creases. Its tablecloth frills and ruff also look ridiculous and aren't textually supported, as far as I can remember.

those are the ceremonial robes that he wears at the end of book 4. its just put as the cover of book 1 because fuligin would look retarded slash boring to anyone not in the know.

I think it would look interesting, it could even be cut out or recessed

I didn't know that was Severian at the end of book 4, are you aware of where he is in that scene and the context? I've always wondered that.

>only what I agree with must be right
Cannibalism is presented in a positive light
It is shown to beneficial
QED
Wolfe thinks Cannibalism is good
It can help us through the healing process of grieving for a lost love one

My argument is that the technology aspect doesn't matter, it doesn't have the structure or ethos of a sci fi novel.

>Cannibalism is presented in a positive light
>It is shown to beneficial

Cannibalism in their world is nothing like cannibalism now. They cannibalize so they can gain special powers. Wolfe isn't showing cannibalism as beneficial, he's showing the Alzabo drug as beneficial. Now if Severian was a cannibal instead of a torturer and cannibalism had no added benefits beyond what exist in our world then you would have a point.

I am disappointed no one else recommended this.

For my money Lem is actually better than Wolfe in terms of literary value. The Cyberiad is simply one of the best short story collections that exists and much of Lem's work like Solaris and Eden really holds up to actual works of literature.

Long Sun has some amazing art. I want this on my wall!

Wolfe is probably going to be relatively obscure until he's been dead for some time

I think they are "literary" for different reasons. I think Wolfe is more character oriented.

Also to add, Lem is funny as fuck, The Star Diaries in particularly.

world inside by robert silverberg is great

this

>views on monarchy and torture
Late to the party here but Severian flatly rejects torture at the end of his story. There are several very sound and logical reasons for backing torture but over the course of his long and painful journey Severian decides that straightforward humanism is enough to justify not using it. I think that that's interesting growth. Severian is kind of an autist for most of the story but then at the end he decides that feels can be greater than reals.

Also anybody who isn't a monarchist/anarchist is wrong. Democracy is a scam.