EmDrive

> field momentum
Which field ?

Lets say it does work, what are the ramifications?

Free energy, interstellar travel

cheap space travel, also weapons capable of destroying earth thus we go extinct.

The whole thing is a psy-ops war between the US and China. Each side is trying to trick the other into wasting more money on a goose chase. America is winning. The only westen tests involved were done by universities that are funded by Goy money. All tests done in vacuums say it's a load of shit, of course. Meanwhile, China sent an EM drive into orbit to try and test it. That would have costed them at least 1 billion dollars in gross costs.

Yeah man, they've totally violated physics.

Except the EM drive actuarry work and America sucks big cock.

>That would have costed*
cost

no they said they'd put it into orbit, we dont know if they've actually done it yet

> The only westen tests involved were done by universities
wrongo

The EMDrive has been tested by NASA’s Advanced Propulsion Physics Research Laboratory

news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/nasa-impossible-emdrive-physics-peer-review-space-science/

i hate americunts but literally half of scientific research coming out of china is invalid / completely fake. much of their projects are simply political and/or societal stunts that don't go beyond the initial stages.

Give a non-trivial undisputed example.

>iterally half of scientific research coming out of china is invalid / completely fake
Source faggot
also don't forget skunkworks compact fusion

The EMDrive works, but no country can afford to use it, because it takes 1.21 Jigawatts to go anywhere.

If you think "half" is a lot, then you're pretty out of the loop in terms of how bad things are in scientific research. Current estimates on American research is that as much of 90% of it is unreplicable and fake. If China is at 50% they're actually beating us by quite a fair margin.

We have to send, at least, $ 50 million to Roger Shawyer if are ever to catch up to the Chinese. Please donate.

They have been making clothing for a long time, though, so it is not surprising.

just shoot it over the ocean and make some low budget 3d and photoshops. its worked for a long time in usa

That, or theremin music.

Thread theme music:
youtube.com/watch?v=c_3yDl1G3Vk

>The Chinese are clothing in on a Science victory
50 cents have been deposited in your pboc account

>free energy

I think I've seen this movie before.

lmao so much this

Yes, and produed the same thrust, in the same direction, no matter which way the "engine" is pointing.

That sort of indicates that they "work" as a over;y-elleborate device for detecting a flaw in your test stand.

What makes you people think it violates the laws of physics ?

R E M I N D E R:
The meme drive is an American psy-op with the goal of wasting Chinese research funds. The data is all faked. The Chinese are now trying to save face by faking data of their own.

That's all, feel free to resume your pointless debate.

eagleworks is barely affiliated with NASA proper and it's where they send all the crank devices to get tested

It's not that hard to build an EMDrive.
So wouldn't they waste like 3 chinese technician's time and

Kinetic energy increases with the square of speed, so there is a theoretical limit to the thrust to power ratio of a propellantless drive, that of a photon rocket. The email-drive is alleged to surpass this thrust to power ratio by several orders of magnitude. So if you get an email-drive to go fast enough you will be getting free energy since its kinetic energy will surpass the power input.

YOU MEAN BITCOIN IS A CURRENCY TO CARRY OUT CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS?

> theoretical limit to the thrust to power ratio of a propellantless drive, that of a photon rocket
maybe a perfect idealized photon rocket which doesn't exist.

>you will be getting free energy
no you won't

>The email-drive is alleged to surpass this thrust to power ratio by several orders of magnitude

The Microwave Cavity Thruster makes use of a High Q resonance system so it can theoretically extract momentum from a high energy travelling wave packet more efficiently than a simple photon drive.

The EM drive supposedly produces propellantless constant thrust regardless of velocity. Were that true, it would be possible to accelerate the device fast enough that energy gained from regenerative braking is less than energy spent accelerating it. That makes the device an overunity device.

>The EM drive supposedly produces propellantless constant thrust regardless of velocity
Where have you seen this claim made ?
BTW, chemical rockets produce constant thrust regardless of velocity.

>Were that true, it would be possible to accelerate the device fast enough that energy gained from regenerative braking is less than energy spent accelerating it.
Current EMDrive prototypes are actually extremely inefficient. So your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

this is something i know is a problem and most scientific researchers know is a problem...

the big issue is that so many American universities are full of PhDs and grad students who are really not worthy of their position. their basic research skills are godawful and they've become so absorbed in their own research that they lose the context. some of you might call this the nature of "basic scientific research" but i see it as underqualified graduate researchers being pushed through universities as free labor.

I've seen it claimed in nearly all threads and articles on the subject, and the key portion of the quote is "propellantless". Also, efficiency is irrelevant to this problem.

mmmmm, but you can't provide a definite source.

Imagine you are in an inertial reference frame, and an electron is flying past relative to the inertial frame at speed v.
The wiechert electric field for a moving charge is increased perpendicular to its motion and decreased along its motion. The weichert magnetic field circles the charge and us also enchaned in the same way since it is just, v cross the wiechert electric field divided by c squared.
In relativity terms the fields are said to be a contracted coulomb electric field, and a contracted bio savart b field, to yield a wiechert electric field and wichert b field both for a moving charge.
The ELectromagnetic field momentum, derived from wiechert fields In this case, which are without loss of generality and work all the way up to speed of light, is proportional to weichert electric field cross weichert magnetic field.

When you use flemmings rule for cross products you can see that the field momentum of the electron's moving Wiechert E and Wiecher B fields, as measured in the lab frame, visually looks like its flowing with and around the electron motion and except for the two thirds paradox, would calculate out to be equal to the electron mechanical momentum. So perhaps all momentum is field based.

This field momentum is called a poynting vector.
Since newtons third law is violated by the Lorentz force, an EM drive could only exist if this field momentum required to balance newtons third law for the lorentz force, did not exist, however that would not conserve momentum

emdrive.com/theorypaper9-4.pdf
let's look at the derived thrust equation from the inventor, then.
P0 = incident photon beam power
Q = microwave cavity quality factor
Sd = design correction factor based on wavelength values and er
c = speed of light
Lambda0 = propagation wavelength in free space
Lambdad = wavelength in dielectric medium
Lambdag1 = wavelength at largest cross-section
Lambdag3 = wavelength at end plate
er = honestly not sure what this one is but it's a constant he sets to 1

ultimately what we have is, for any given emdrive configuration, a linear relationship between power and thrust.

The only candidate for an EM drive for would be field momentum, proportional to E cross B. field momentum surrounds moving charges and moves with them, it can also be shown that field momentum is the momentum which is required to balance the missing momentum which occurs when the Lorentz force law violates newtons third law, for the force from moving charges on each other. This extra field monument required for newtons third law to hold for E and M, is called hidden momentum-see griffths electrodynamics, pgs. 357 361 520-521

I think you are doing charged particle physics.
The EMDrive is purported to work for reasons other than the Lorentz force.
True an electron is subject to C contraint in vacuum, that is the momentum will approach infinity as C is approached.

> for any given emdrive configuration, a linear relationship between power and thrust
Are you talking about independence of thrust and velocity ?

It should be obvious that I am.

(There may be multiple posters on different tagents)
OK, So what.
What exactly in General or Special relativity says you must get free energy from a working EMDrive as you approach C ?

Scratch that, hidden momentum is not field momentum, that nomenclature refers to the extra mech momentum due to relativistic effects, however if the two thirds problem is solved, then technically hidden momentum is field momentum since all momentum is considered field momentum if the two thirds problem of electron field momentum yields, to a solely field based momentum explanation.

Where is EmDrive user?

I'm talking about the user that said he was working on some affiliated research and other anons verified that he wasn't larping and promised to give updates...

At least say that you are not dead.

I did not say that you get free energy as you approach C. I said that if you have constant thrust without losing mass, then eventually your kinetic energy will be larger than the energy spent to accelerate you.

The input energy used to accelerate the device is a linear process. Kinetic energy increases with the square of the velocity. It's simple math.

to clarify the first sentence: it's not just that you have free energy JUST by going fast. It's that if you have some kind of means to extract the energy back out, with some kind of regenerative braking mechanism, then you'll be able to pull more out than you put in.

I don't see what you're saying.
Your talking about conservation of energy being violated, so you have to show that the total energy consumed by the EMDrive is less than the kinetic energy produced. That should be easy from the inventor's "allegedly bogus equations".
Can you do that ?

I never called them bogus. I brought in the equations to prove my claim that the device is claimed to produce a constant thrust without using propellant.

>you have to show that the total energy consumed by the EMDrive is less than the kinetic energy produced
you only have to look at the basic equations to see that it must be true. velocity increases linearly as the force is applied over time. kinetic energy increases exponentially as the force is applied over time. if you can extract the kinetic energy, you can extract more energy than you used to accelerate the object.

The only forces on moving charges in e and m are due to charges interacting via electrostatic fields, wiechert electric and magnetic velocity fields, wiechert electric and magnetic acceleration fields, these are grouped under the term Lorentz force.
The only non lorentz force on moving charges is the force from interacting with eM waves,
called radiation resistance force, or radiaction reaction firce.
The problem is that using radiaction resistance firce, i.e. light momentum firce, as propulsion is that it would be cheating, since the radiation resistance force on a accelerating charged particle is not reaction-less, and the Chinese want a reactionless em drive.
So the only force we can use are the electric force and the v cross Magnetic field B force, combined called the lorentz force, its from the wiechert fields shoukd be used, to prvent loss if generality. Yet field momentum prevents this from beingreaction less, and thus newton third law is not violated.

Next stop -- THE STARS!

>maybe a perfect idealized photon rocket which doesn't exist.
Yes, that's why I said theoretical limit.

>no you won't
Yes you will. If kinetic energy exceeds input then by definition you have created free energy. And this energy would be easily attainable via energy generative breaking.

>The Microwave Cavity Thruster makes use of a High Q resonance system so it can theoretically extract momentum from a high energy travelling wave packet more efficiently than a simple photon drive.
I don't see how "resonance system" can explain how energy is being created.

>I don't see how "resonance system" can explain how energy is being created.

You left out the handwaving. The explanation works much better with the handwaving.

>The EM drive supposedly produces propellantless constant thrust regardless of velocity.
Interesting assumption, I have no idea why you think it is valid.

>idiots claim emdrive can create unlimited energy
>They can't explain why a photon drive which also has constant thrust from the reference frame of the drive is also unlimited energy
Oh wait you change the frame and the thrust drops from time dilation? Oh the same thing happens to chemical or electric rockets and literally everything?

But we assume the emdrive keeps the same thrust? Fuck you brainlets, too bad the emdrive doesn't work.

I wonder how much of their "Discoveries" are made up of stolen research from state sponsored hacking.

A dick response like this is why I love you Veeky Forums

>velocity increases linearly as the force is applied over time
No it does not.

It doesn't matter whether a chemical engine or exotic engine is used. If the thrust results in a force of say .1 G, then the entire system is **accelerating**, corresponding to the ^2 factor in kinetic energy.

The naysayers on the technology in this thread are a mix of conspiracy theorists, 8th grade physicists, and other confused persons that have never had direct experience with an actual EMDrive. The only legitimate reference seems to be this:
So we can assume the EMDrive works as the inventor claims until credible evidence shows otherwise.

There's no confusion. It's been tested in a vacuum and shown not to work.

No even semi-credible source again.

we already have nukes

user's probably referring to asteroid redirection,
which can already be done with traditional technology.

So I don't really understand the EM drive. Does it just shit out a nigtrillion watts of Microwaves and shit out a pipe?

If I can't trust buying clothing from the Chinese online, then how could I trust their clothes in space?

Checkmark atheists

Lets have PBS Space time take a look at it, then. The video page includes explanations, references, and source links. I suggest you take the 14 minutes to watch it.

youtube.com/watch?v=hqoo_4wSkdg

>>PBS
>government funded statist commie propaganda
real source or gtfo

They are funded by Patreon, Great Courses Plus and Legal Zoom. They say so right at the start of their videos.

This presentation is an elaborate way of saying "we don't know for sure about this thing".
Not even close to a refutation.
They didn't even do anything hands on with an actual operational unit.

What they did was examine the work people have done on it. Peer review. It's ridiculous for you to say they should have personally done experiments when the aim of the show is to provide understanding. More so when the experimental data they examine included the experiment that was done in a total vacuum, with highly sensitive detection equipment. You're really just going to handwave them because the equations and citations they use are too "elaborate" for you? That's just another way of saying you can't understand them.

They didn't exactly go out on a limb and refute the drive.
Soooo..., they don't know for sure and are merely. guessing.
Whereas those that have experimented with the actual drive have had numerous positive test results, that yes ultimately might have some other explanation, but to date don't.

They give the data exactly as it is and they do not buy into the hype. The host (an astrophysics professor himself) obviously doesn't believe it works, but he's still scientific enough to not "go out on a limb" to say so. They show the data, show that it's inconclusive, gives hypothesises on how it might not be and how the EM might work if we change physics (eg, bring back aether), then finalise by saying that the whole thing is probably nothing.

>Whereas those that have experimented with the actual drive have had numerous positive test results

I don't think you were paying attention to the video. They go over each test by different groups. The guys who first made it claimed it worked, while everyone that tried to replicate the results (such as nasa) got nothing close to the amount of claimed thrust. They got results that were either equivalent to a photon rocket (the same amount of force a torch emits via radiation pressure, which is almost nil), or straight up indicative of the thrust being caused by iterations between magnetic fields and the measuring equipment (eg, the force is still applied in the same direction even when the drive is turned around).

>"advanced"
>"research"
>"laboratory"

Fancy name for Harold White and two other guys on a shoestring budget studying every pseudoscience from free energy to warp drives

FUCK YOU YOU JEW MOTHERFUCKER YOU

>>The host (an astrophysics professor himself)
He looks at pretty pictures beamed back from the Hubble. He's not an engineer.

>>They got results that were either equivalent to a photon rocket
How do you explain this ? The unit is a sealed cavity. No photons are expelled out of some exhaust port.

See:

Yes it does, and the reason propellant based rockets don't have this problem is that they use propellant. The physical system includes the exhaust left behind the rocket.

Explain how newtons third law can be violated. It can't. So since there is no reaction less em drive, the inventor is out of thier wits.
Who would want an em drive that used radiation resistance force? If you use photons you fucking retard, you drive is not reaction less, if your drive has a reaction then you get more thrust by using particles with mass such as an ion thruster, plasma thruster etc.
So no em drive is physically possible, and photon drives are produce less thrust than drives that use particles with mass.

If velocity increased linearly as the force is applied over time, then the ship could exceed the speed of light which would violate Special Relativity.

>tfw no one wins a cultural victory

>you get more thrust by using particles with mass
Sure and you have to carry all that mass and use it. The EMDrive doesn't have to eject mass which is what makes it interesting.

Now you're starting to see the problem with the EMdrive!

Problem ???
That's one of the best features of the EMDrive.

>Here is a concrete contraption to get unlimited energy, and unlimited deltaV, given the hypothesis of constant "propellantless thrust" at constant power :
>Em drives mounted on a rotor turning at 2000m/s tangential velocity (not easy but this is the kind of tangential velocity attained in some energy storage flywheels...). Em drives consuming 1kW microwave, radiating some (all ?) of this power as heat and thrusting at 1N : 1N/kW is in the ballpark of what has been experimentally claimed already. This gives 2000m/s * 1N = 2kW mechanical power to the shaft of the rotor. 2kW mechanical power at the shaft are converted to 1800W DC current by a generator (and 200W radiated as heat). Of this 1800W DC electrical power, 250W are diverted for any use we like. To keep it in line with the topic I put it to good use to power another Em drive but really we are free to use those 250W for whatever (creating mass for instance). The power splitter is not 100% efficient, it radiates 50W of power. 1800-250-50 = 1500W to feed the RF amplifier. The RF amplifier wastes (radiates) 500W as heat and pumps 1000W of clean microwave back into the Em drives on the rotor.
>The process needs an initial investment in energy (to make rotor move at 2000m/s tangential velocity) but then this is a free energy generator for all practical purpose. If small variations in efficiency make the rotor lose a bit of velocity, just divert a little more power to the RF amplifier : this is just a regulation problem, there is ample margins to adjust and stabilize around the optimal operating point.

>If this consequence is a feature of the Em drive, great. If this is a problem then the problem rests in the initial hypothesis of "propellantless thrust magnitude at constant power". But we often see by proponents the contradictory position that "of course EM drive respects COE, and somehow at constant power input at some (ill defined) point thrust has to surrender" and that "with that technology we could reach Proxima in less than a century", that later hope being made possible only by breaking COE, that is considering "constant thrust at constant power".
>So either "constant thrust at constant power" is true and this is (apparently) breaking COE.
>Or either "constant thrust at constant power" is not true, COE might be preserved, then we would like to see a not so ill defined formula of thrust=function(power, other objective parameters ?), and short of that at least not be sold deep space mission profile that do presuppose constant thrust at constant power, undercover.

A photon rocket does not have this problem because even at its theoretical maximum thrust per power ratio (which is about 3.336 * 10^-9 N/W), the speed it would have to reach in order to start the violation is the speed of light in vacuum. So, even though it has a constant thrust per power input it will simply never reach the required speed no matter what you do.

But any increase in the thrust/power ratio will decrease the speed to something that can be reached and at 1N/kW that speed is only 1 km/s.

If you are gonna cut and paste from some other forum, please give your own detailed explanation, as to what the hell your point is please.

why would I rewrite something already explained succinctly by someone else? that's illogical.

If you think this GobbleyGook is going to convince anyone of something good luck user !

they directly address points raised in this thread. the EMdrive as described by its inventor allows the creation of a free energy machine. either the EMdrive doesn't work, it doesn't work as described as is nothing but a novelty, or all of physics is wrong.

I'm betting against that last one.

If the EM drive works, Military Industrial Complex black projects probably figured it out and more a long time ago ( where are all those trillions going? )
If it doesn't work then what the fuck is China doing by keep researching it? Somehow trick the US into wasting funds on it even though US doesn't believe it works anyways?