Islam Thread

>bothersome.

I also agree on the 2nd interpretation, Islam is not a proper name so it encompass a large variety of things unlike, say, "judaism"

Really an esoteric readind of the hadiths and Quran is best, but you'll be called an heretic by ignorant pretty quickly (like Ibn Arabi or Meister Eckart for christians)

Surely you can agree that Arabic is a beautiful language to hear though?

I'd recommend you try listening to some famous nasheeds! Such as this: youtube.com/watch?v=mnFtZY_DNNs

More in a purely religious context, here is a recitation of the first chapter of the Quran that Muslims recite while praying: youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

>Ibn Arabi

"O Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Kaa'ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take,
that is my religion and my faith."

Reading some rudimentary texts and lectures on Sufism and Taqawuff definitely made me a more soft-hearted submitter.

>Really an esoteric reading of the hadiths and Quran is best
Could you suggest some books that do this?

tfw your religion prohibits you from being a good friend with me

Right, I have forgotten which verse says that bit about opening one's heart to non-Muslims (I am not being sarcastic, I know there is one, unless I have been a victim of some very sinful lies), care to remind me?

I sadly don't have any specific books to suggest because I mainly read dispatched passages on the internet but I do know some authors who gives insightful comments about Islam.

Ibn arabi as I said.
Al ghazali
Michel Valsan (a french guy but maybe his books are translated in english... he translated a lot of esoteric interpretations of the Quran by "Al Qachani" (or Qashani) a disciple of Ibn Arabi.

>I mainly read dispatched passages

Any particular sites of blogs you follow?

>Surely you can agree that Arabic is a beautiful language to hear though?
No, actually, I genuinely find it to be one of the ugliest languages.

Do you genuinely not know westerners often consider Arabic to be among the most unpleasant languages to listen to? Not the least for historical reasons I'm sure, but the throat fricatives also simply don't come with nice associations.

Surah 4:144
Surah 3:28
Surah 3:118
Surah 5:51
Surah 5:52
Surah 5:57
Surah 11:113

I love qasida burdah which you posted.

Listen to this brother it´s so beautiful youtube.com/watch?v=M3xjz4nxzGQ

Yes, but they're all french. Do you still want them?

>Not the least for historical reasons
I live in a part of the world untouched by the plague, but I detest the language and culture nonetheless.

No, I can only understand English.

I'll try to find a video with subtitles since I do not understand Arabic.

I've always been curious though, what are the thoughts of Muslims outside India on the work of AR Rahman (it does feature instruments).

This is my favorite:
youtube.com/watch?v=Nnmz3vJhr2A

(Translations are particularly bad, language is Hindi or it might just be Urdu)

Too bad, but surely you'll find what you need if you try enough, we all started there.

I will listen to that video you posted later. Here a translation of that song

Rahman , Oh Rahman (the Most Merciful)
Aid me Oh Merciful
Fill my heart with love of the Quran
Open my heart to the Quran
And pour the Quran in my life.

For Allah , For Allah
My desire for Allah is passionate
So i can learn the book of Allah
Start with Bismillah (In the name of Allah)
For the closure (of the Quran) and his approval.

Oh Nur oh Nur (oh light...oh light)
Oh Quran you descended to the graduate
Unto Muhammad ﷺ by Jibril
Guided by the Lord of the Throne
For man and all that exists.

Takbir.....Takbir (Allah is the greatest,Allah is the greatest )
For the one while young who learnt the Quran
The eyes illuminate with serenity & content
Bearing the light of the Fajr (dawn) shining
And the universe enriched the recitation.

Allah Allah gather us together by your book
And make it benefit us all
Make it our fortress
Our tranquility & our eternal guide.

I found a video with subtitles quite easily (didn't even try when I to when I requested one be delivered, how impatient we can be sometimes!), it is truly a beautiful song, thank you for sharing this!

I can imagine my Quran only friends will be particularly touched by this.

There are actual fucking muslims on Veeky Forums. There are probably loads on /pol/. Now it's clear where all the jewposting comes from.

A lot of this has to do with "allies" as opposed to "friends", there is an underlying point that these surahs have to do with strategic advise in times of conflict.

youtube.com/watch?v=vxcscSgznCw

That's Zakir Naik on the topic and I consider him to be one of the most hard hearted preachers I have seen.

Here's Mufti Menk, much more of a sweetheart (the music folks put in the background is quite annoying, I know):

youtube.com/watch?v=3VyaALS1H3A

I have close friends who are Non-Believers, I treat them with a lot of love.

Obligatory Nouman Ali Khan video:

youtube.com/watch?v=x1oK4i7R22E

Memri TV is what Muslims are actually thinking.
These are their pundits.
Think about it.

>Most people who speak of my apocalyptic death cult have no knowledge of it, in itself, beyond it being an apocalyptic death cult.

Who cares.

See it's still troublesome to me that muslims think this way.
Ok so, your ancestor was once a non-muslim. Then he converted.

There's something perfidious about Islam where a lack of some kind is always assumed.
I'm an incomplete being, maybe not human being, but still incomplete for not embracing your doctrine.

>it's the my religion is not a joke episode again

The reason why people speak on Islam without ''truely'' knowing it as you describe yourself is because people can observe, you can put yourself in someone position and say: Hey, that text right there may be taken out of context, like with basically anything.
But no.. ofcourse.. i do not understand muslims, i can observe anything. but when i talk about muslims i am ALWAYS wrong.
Because you're pieces of total shit oppertunist cancers who will lie to themselves and secrectly hold a deep hatred against smoking and drinking passed down from the family.
Could have happened to any race or religion, could have happened to ANYONE.
BUT I HAPPENED TO YOU MUSLIMS.

>Dogmatic, literalist theology

yawn

>I'm an incomplete being, maybe not human being, but still incomplete for not embracing your doctrine.

Don't know what you mean about you not being human but yes, in so far as you have not submitted to God you are an incomplete being, and I hope that you someday discover his importance in your life.

>oppertunist cancers who will lie to themselves and secrectly hold a deep hatred
Any big religion ever.

So you'll never accept me fully as long as I don't convert.

How can people even be friends that way?
If I was hanging out with someone and he'd be on some sort of autistic shit that "you're my friend, but if you joined our football team, then you'd be a better friend". Excuse me to never talk to your ass again.

Your religion is literally saying a phrase to belong to God's flock.
A phrase.
That's it.
Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.
You could go on the street, convince someone in 5 seconds, have him say the phrase and he'd belong to the 'brotherhood' of islam.

Your god is a joke if that's all you need to do.

>So you'll never accept me fully

What do you mean by "accepting you"?
>"you're my friend, but if you joined our football team, then you'd be a better friend". Excuse me to never talk to your ass again.

Well, it seems you have peculiarly high standards for "friends", this is an improper analogy but I have many friends who similarly say "if only you could come out drinking with us we'd be better friends" and what not, but I still don't leave them by virtue of their being a way for us to become closer that I am not comfortable with.

Still what I'm saying isn't akin to joining a football team, I don't think embracing the Truth can be compared to that, it is something much grander.

>Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.

No islamic scholar would say that one must not genuinely believe the shahada when one is saying it.

Maybe you're an American or something, because Americans call a dude they talk to twice a friend.
Yes, I have high standards for friends. If us being really close is conditional, I'm out.

Comparing GOD to a football team.

Man, I understand your sentiment but even Jesus who was SO TOLERANT said the same thing about one's family.

How do you even check it?
"Yeah I was totally serious when I said it."

>Not a deep religious experience is needed. Just saying a formula.
>You could go on the street, convince someone in 5 seconds, have him say the phrase and he'd belong to the 'brotherhood' of islam.

Seriously, where did you get this idea from? What kind of shallow Muslims have you been talking to?

Not an American, I do find it very funny how a lot of Westerners see America as the embodiment of all things evil though!

>If us being really close is conditional, I'm out.
You're telling me that, for all the people you consider as friends, there is nothing you can change about yourself that would make you closer friends?

Are you married? Because anyone with a wife they love and adore is aware of the necessity of saying "I'm sorry, even though you feel we could be closer if I took more time off work, this is something I must do".

All this scholar, and law school, and all this other authority crap really makes me hate Islam even more.
You people have enshrined not thinking for yourselves as a virtue.

I really hope than those talking bad about Islam aren't the one parroting and namedropping Aquinas every time they have a chance on Veeky Forums

It's like having an opinion on christianity based on the common baptist in the deep south or peasants in the middle ages.

Read Averroes (inspired Aquinas) or Ibn Arabi idk.

>Seriously, where did you get this idea from? What kind of shallow Muslims have you been talking to?

youtube.com/watch?v=wT1KV6Qlj88

You should listen to a good oral recitation of the Quran, it can be really beautiful.

Also, a question that's probably been asked a million times: what is a non-crap english translation of the Quran for a novice? The version in my local bookstore was in imitation King James english which seemed pretty dumb to me.

says someone who probably knows jack shit about Islam

>How do you even check it?
Well obviously you can't know definitively but the point stands that simply saying the words is not sufficient.

If other actions revealed that said person did not honestly believe it when he took shahada, then they would not be considered a Muslim, in fact many modern orthodox Muslims have taken quite a liking to calling other Muslims Not-Real-Muslims, so much so that there is even a word to condescendingly refer to these Non-Muslim-Callers, i.e. takfiris en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri

>"I'm sorry, even though you feel we could be closer if I took more time off work, this is something I must do".

Nah, I'd just beat the crap out of her, subhunallah.

Saheeh International is a very highly commended translation.
kalamullah.com/Books/Quran - Saheeh International Translation .pdf

Supplement this with reading the following abridged version of a commentary on the Quran called the Tafheem:
islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=130

If you read the Quran on its one it'll be a very, very, boring experience.

>Well obviously you can't know definitively but the point stands that simply saying the words is not sufficient.

Doesn't matter. If he says the words, he's in.
If you can't lie detector his ass during, it doesn't matter. He's saying it. That's all you can go with.

This is the problem with exotericism. The criterea are too weak. It's not a big stepping stone. Just splash some water over someone's face. Say a phrase. "But u gotta b super duper serial, k?!"
Excuse me, but there's more integrity to a masonic lodge than to your "slaver is cool" cave revelation by a dude with epilepsy.

Right, I agree with you there, I too find it distasteful that Islamic scholars are so highly revered but my point was simply that, even orthodox folks and folks orthodox muslims look up to, wouldn't agree that inner sincerity is needed when saying the Sahabah.

Can't do esotericism without the exoteric part bro.
Ever read Guenon?

Yeah it's too weak, but what can we do? We can't read hearts.

>worshiping the moon goddess Isis
No thanks, goat. I'd rather not worship one of the many faces of Lucifer.

>wouldn't agree that inner sincerity is needed when saying the Sahabah.
I mean they would agree*

Dare you accuse me of a Freudian slip! haha.

I do read Guenon. He's ok. He's got "the Tradition" totally wrong though. Like most Traditionalists.

>Yeah it's too weak, but what can we do? We can't read hearts.

You can. But your religion would behead these organizations that do induce transformative experiences and can notice it did have an effect.

Islam is a downgrade from Christian ethics.

Christ preaches turning the other cheek, Muhammad preaches eye for an eye.

What is tradition then?

Also you're talking as if exoterism wasn't hostile to esoterism in general.
A lot of esoteric christians were accused of heresy.

Also esoteric organisation don't usually care about the masses anyway, hypocrites are only fooling themselves.

>But your religion would behead these organizations

I don't know about this but in general I will mention that there is a lot of dissatisfaction (among a new wave of modernist Muslims and among many orthodox scholars of the ulema) surrounding how little emphasis Muslims place on tasawuff or Sufism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism

Btw, you've been in conversation with atleast two people, do keep that in mind when considering my opinions.

I'm well aware of exotericism its teeth grinding suspicions about most esoteric takes. It's why I abandoned Christianity. When I tried to talk to Catholic priests and just Christians in general about my mystical experiences or esotericism in general, he was only mildly responsive to it. Too prone to heresy he claimed. And that was it for me. If my deepest and most transformative of moments doesn't fit your institution "sanctioned spiritual experiences", I'm out.

>Also esoteric organisation don't usually care about the masses anyway, hypocrites are only fooling themselves.

They don't. That's true. And that's why I think spirituality of the mystical kind ( which to me is the deepest one can go and reach ) isn't meant for everyone. And I don't really mind that. Let people have their folklore. Their customs and routines that give meaning to the daily grind. Let them have the dummie tier take on nature, or the gods, angels, etc. Don't expect them to be theologians. Don't expect people to be as much a devotee as you are. And that's my problem with most (post-)Axial Age religions. They expect everyone to at least aspire to become like the religious scholar, the hermit, the monk, etc. Somehow "they do better", while for most of human history, people were just people.

>What is tradition then?

The tradition that Guenon and others point to is a historical construct.
It's basically a theosophist fantasy.
If anything IS a tradition that is prehistorical, it's what we would call superstition, it's the tendency people have to make charms, do spells, perform witchcraft and and other shamanic practises. Which is also much more female oriented and not this Evolian male-solar-dick worship.

Luke 14:26

>Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

Which, I might add, is why I think Islam is fundamentally wrong and why I can never convert. Because what you call "jahiliyyah" is what we've always been.
The archeological record proves this.
Our distant ancestors were animists, talking to spirits in hallucinations and dreams, not prostrating monotheists.

I know enough to know it has no fucking place in our borders given its history of endlessly trying to conquer us with bloodshed and that there doesn't exist a single Muslim country worth visiting.

Horrible reading comprehension and a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic theological concepts - as expected of a muslim

I understand your feelings and I agree. A lot of believers makes me sad even though I admire the most devout ones for their blind faith.
Though, I think you made a mistake by renouncing christianism. Exoteric rituals have a "raison d'être" and aren't merely tools to keep the people going they need to be understood and given a higher meaning. The majority of mystics, enlightened people, etc subscribed fully to the exoteric law.
That's why protestantism is practically devoid of saints or mystics even though they preach for a more "direct and personnal faith"

What is unity through multiplicity?

People in the ancient times knew this, but because we live in a spiritually darkened era, religions needs to affirm unity in the most explicit way possible.

"Dios ha muerto, y nosotros lo hemos matado.
¿Cómo podríamos consolarnos, los asesinos de todos los asesinos?".

How do David Wood's videos make you Muslims feel? Is he wrong? Can you actually refute any of his videos?

Quran 3:28
Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

46:12
>And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good.

6:155-157
>[We revealed it] lest you say, "The Scripture was only sent down to two groups before us, but we were of their study unaware," Or lest you say, "If only the Scripture had been revealed to us, we would have been better guided than they." So there has [now] come to you a clear evidence from your Lord and a guidance and mercy. Then who is more unjust than one who denies the verses of Allah and turns away from them? We will recompense those who turn away from Our verses with the worst of punishment for their having turned away.

3:3-4
>He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

5:68
>Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

The Quran says in many places that 1) the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were not corrupted, and 2) the Quran was revealed in Arabic because the Arabs had not yet received a revelation like the Jews and Christians had. It was so they had no excuse on judgment day.

Any Muslim who tells you that theirs in the one true faith and one needs to convert isn't speaking from their own scripture. There's literally no reason for Christians and Jews to convert. In fact, it wouldn't make any sense for them to convert for the sake of a revelation that exists solely for Arabs.

Question for Muslims here:

Doesn't it ever bother you that your holy book is a mostly incoherent fanfiction of Jewish and Christian scriptures with a whole bunch of old Christian heresies thrown in and them tempered with an almost autistic focus on narrowly-defined monotheism?

Their holy texts includes the Torah, and the Egyptian book of the dead you fucking retard. Solely islamic holy texts are not meant to be taken seriously
he is a retard who does not know what he is talking about because the Quran is not an accurate description of muslim theology

calling now that christian dogs will try to debate me on this

It did. That's why I'm agnostic now. I can't say anything about god, but Muhammad was definitely a psycho.

Muslims: why is sex such a taboo for Muslims when they are rewarded for their abstinence with sex in paradise? That's just one of many, many inconsistencies you will find.

Not either of those anons but I'm interested in your opinion.

How does it make you feel knowing that your culture is such a gigantic failure that if the world had fallen to Islam we'd have never made it out of the middle ages let alone to the industrial era?

>the Quran is not an accurate description of muslim theology

You're going to have to back this up somehow, because according to the Quran itself, the revelation from God IS the Quran. To Christians, it's not the bible. The whole of Christianity was founded on an event, the resurrection of Christ. The whole of Islam was founded on a revelation to Muhammad. So if that revelation can't even accurate describe the faith, why should anyone take it seriously?

Even if you think it's part of Islamic theology, but not the WHOLE of theology, proving that parts of the Quran contradict each other or how Muslims speak about their faith is enough to debunk it. The Quran may not give a complete picture, but if it were to say something opposite to what we're told about Islam, that is surely a mark against the faith.

I'm an atheist, but don't be a retard user. The Islamic golden age was a thing, you know. And while Islam does retard development, dont make such sweeping generalizations you ignorant that.

>if it were to say something opposite to what we're told about Islam
>what we're told about Islam = it's a religion of peace!!

KILL ALL INFIDELS
I
L
L

A
L
L

I
N
FIDELS!!

you are completely oblivious of the goings-on of the theological world. The 'gigantic failure' of the muslim society (which is literally just impiety) does not compare to the "middle ages" because their nature was completely separate as the chrsitian dogs waged war without the technology or food to assault castles en masse with the exception of some conquerors in the latter days (like Gustaves Aldophos who lead his people into extinction.

The reason why the muslim lands appear that way is because were they pious Allah would have to conquer them all from powerful kings whose people adored them, whereas now, they can be conquered with ease to pursue the apocalypse.

The Islamic Golden Age may as well be a myth, to be honest. It's exaggerated and for all the philosophy, there's still a good reason that an exact science like we see now was never even close to materializing in the Islamic world and could only have come from Christians.

Your post is about as incoherent as the Quran, but from what I can tell you bought into a Dark Ages myth, I'm guessing? You actually believe the Middle Ages were a dark period? lol

inferior religion/philosophy produced by an inferior race. why should anyone bother discussing that?

You know the irony in having pride about a meager technological advantage of about 10 years is the Western world could effortlessly glass the entirety of the Muslim world in an instant as of about Reality O' Clock: Yesterday.

Because Christians have more developed brains, is that it? Don't be stupid, it was the Europeans who were considered barbarians in the dark ages.

Frankly, any society can produce genius if the proper stimulus is provided and there is an atmosphere of learning. It's the reason why the Greeks produced so many gifted individuals.

The Islamic golden age was simply the time when learning and knowledge were more important. Gifted individuals like Avicenna, averroes were born. You cannot deny that the Islamic golden age was a fact. The advances in mathematics, science, medicine, astronomy, were more complicated than anything Europe would produce untill the renaissance.

Do you think that the renaissance just suddenly produced great people like da Vinci, Michelangelo? Do you think that Europeans were somehow less developed in the dark ages? Fact of the matter is that Islam didn't hinder learning in the golden age, while Christian culture did that during the dark ages. The roles reversed as the culture changed. It very pretentious and arrogant of you to assume that only a white man could have made great discoveries when until about the 16th century, the Chinese and the Arabs were far more advanced. Grow a brain.

>using facts
ughh.

What do you think about pic related?

How does it make you feel?

And you cannot deny that Islamic fundamentalism killed the Islamic Golden Age. Avicenna and Averroes were basically heretics.

Read the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. Written by a fellow agnostic, and tell me for yourself if it has artistic merit or not.

Fact of the matter is that the Islamic world really has produced nothing valuable. Nothing in the name of Islam anyways. It just so happens that some great thinkers were present in Muslim lands
I'm not defending Islam, it's clearly influenced progress. But assuming that progress is dulled because MuslimS are inferior is retarded, which I'm trying to show.

True. And I admire both of them more for it. But they were of the same race as those goat ducking fanatics, and that's a fact.

>But assuming that progress is dulled because MuslimS are inferior is retarded, which I'm trying to show.

I'd say look at Jerusalem circa 700AD-1944 and the work of Palestinian Jews circa 1915-1920. They were blowing Palestinian Muslims the fuck out before they were even a country.

>no knowledge of it, in itself, beyond the actions and beliefs of its followers.
There is literally nothing left to it if you subtract the actions and beliefs of its followers, you dunce.

Sounds gay to be honest senpai

Ibn Arabi ran into trouble in one town but it was short lived and he was pretty popular during his time iirc. That said I agree with everything else.

newfags wouldn't know this but there was a based shi`ibro that posted once in a while, and there was Iranman too. Also Islam is as interesting (I'd say more) as the rest of the Abrahamic religions but at least it doesn't get shilled here like /pol/tardian Christianity.