Vaccines and the anti-vaccine debate

>Debate

There is not a debate, only dumb skeptical people who even thought they claim to know shit about vaccines, they don´t actually go on in a effort to understand how they work, and expect the scientist community keeps spending money on some shit we know it is perfectly safe, and no matter how much evidence they give is never enough.

The masses are just too dumb to understand why they work or they usually have personal biases which don´t let them be reasonable.

Americans are beyond obnoxious, when you realize Americans is just a tiny parcel of people who receive vaccines, and there is not one single evidence that it causes anything bad is just OBNOXIOUS.

McDonalds presents an infinitely bigger hazardous.

Let me rephrase that, NOT TAKING THE VACCINES PRESENTS THE POSSIBILITY OF MUTATION, WHICH PRESENTS THE POSSIBILITY OF ALL HUMANITY BEING EXTINCT.

>NOT TAKING THE VACCINES PRESENTS THE POSSIBILITY OF MUTATION, WHICH PRESENTS THE POSSIBILITY OF ALL HUMANITY BEING EXTINCT.
Nonsense. You are not doing anyone favors by making up things that sound scary to support your point, no matter how valid that point is.

As long as vaccines are not forced onto the populous via a state mandate a majority of people will use them.

People are not opposed to vaccines, they are opposed to the vaccines being compulsory.

I understand the lack of trust individuals experience in terms of government relations.

t. fearmongering brainlet

>I understand the lack of trust individuals experience in terms of government relations.
So am I, but I'm a bit less understanding about people putting others at risk at a result.

Vaccinate yourself if you want, but keep your magic elixir away from me. Someday maybe you'll grow up and learn to think critically before jumping on a bandwagon.

That is fair. As long as you commit yourself to that philosophy by staying away from society far enough that you don't present a health hazard to the people around you, I entirely support that stance.

I havent had a flu shot in like...10 years. I also havent gotten the flu in that timespan.

More about my laziness than having an opinion on the matter.

That's not how it works. You're free to follow your fundamentalist religion but it shall have no impact upon my life.

>You're free to follow your fundamentalist religion but it shall have no impact upon my life.
Yes, precisely. Which is why antivaxxers had better make sure they don't become an infection hazard with their practices. Staying away from society is just one way of accomplishing that, of course.

Why do people assume that unvaccinated people/children are carrying diseases? Or that vaccinated people couldn't possibly catch the very thing they were vaccinated for?

Choosing not to vaccinate does not inrease your risk for anything, it just doesn't reduce the risk. On the other hand vaccines can not reduce your risk to zero.

This is why I am against compulsory vaccination and for informed consent.

Also, why is this debate so black and white? What about people who believe in vaccines, but just don't see the need for all of them, or at least would like to do only one medication at a time, because where else in medicine do you say "Let's give you three different medications at the same time. ... and if you have an adverse reaction, we will have no way of knowing what caused it,.... because we did 3 medications at once that you have never been exposed to before. "

>compulsory vaccination
do they do that?

>Why do people assume that unvaccinated people/children are carrying diseases?
They don't. Instead, they calculate that their risk of such is much higher.

>This is why I am against compulsory vaccination and for informed consent.
Are you in favor of mandatory regular safety inspections on cars, to stop people from driving things that are a hazard for those around them?

If so, the principles for compulsory vaccinations is the same -- you are required to take reasonable precautions to minimize the degree to which you (wittingly or otherwise) are causing safety/health problems for those around you. (And yes, an unvaccinated person is a health hazard to those around them even when not carrying any diseases, for herd immunity and epidemic-risk reasons.)

>I want to understand it...

Dishonest people do crappy research, desperate people believe them then get defensive when people try and tell them the truth -- that no, vaccines didn't give you kid autism.

There are several. There are medical professionals whose agenda is not to have lots of kids die for no reason based on crappy and falsified research.

Parents who fell for the conman have an agenda, they think doctors are harming kids and want to stop it.

Fraudulent researchers want to fool people and get famou$.

Honest but incompetent researchers think they've found a preventable tragedy and want to prevent it.

Media guys want clicks.

Politicians, in addition to one or more of the above, want votes.

The "debate" is crawling with agendas. some good, some bad.

>No agenda. Just a new wave of anti-intellectualism, anti-science, and anti-gubment.

So, there's three agendas right there!

/thread

Many states do not require mandatory safety inspections and I personally oppose them because I'm not an authoritarian like you.

I wouldn't compare vaccines to safety checks on vehicles. Safety inspections poise zero harm to the owner of the car. Vaccines on the other hand, come with warnings that it can cause things ranging from mild pain at the injection site, fever, diarrhea, and in serious cases can cause sleep apnea in babies, which is deadly to them, as they may not be old enough to be able to kick-start their breathing again. But doctors and the CDC don't tell people about the more serious outcomes that are possible. Instead they give patients Visual Information Statements, which include watered down information and leaves out a lot of information that should be necessary for true informed consent.

Long story short, all medications carry risk. No one should be forced to blindly accept that risk for the sake of others. Would you play russian roulette, in hopes that it might keep someone else from getting shot?

It's more like road maintenance then car inspection in my opinion. Repairing a road doesn't necessarily have a negative impact on the people having their road repaired. Mistakes occur though pipes with lead lining get disrupted, children play in places they shouldn't, strange fumes cause allergic reactions, etc. However fixing the road is important for maintaining public safety in general as a broken down road can be far more dangerous than a short period of repairs. When someone is not connected to the rest of the system they can let their roads fall to disrepair and not fix them opening just them up to the danger.

If you are living on the road and benefiting from all the roads being fixed but decide fuck having the area around your house cleared up then problems can start. Sometimes you live in a cul de sac so the likelihood a car crash will occur is low. Other times the house is next to a freeway and car crashes start happening more and more damaging the road until nothing can fix it.

In this case the freeway would be like sending your children to a school that has immunocompromised children who can't get the vaccine and if they do get the diseases they protect against they will die. If you live off the grid then it doesn't matter, but if you interact with others on a daily basis and want to benefit from the herd immunity we all enjoy then you should let your roads get fixed too.

You're stretching, user. And I'm not repairing a road because you might someday hit a pothole, sorry.
>and even that assumes the underlying metaphor is reasonably correct, which it is not.

No it's not because I might hit a pothole it's because a semi might hit a pot hole and take out some houses. To translate it is to make sure that the virus does not mutate and remove any vaccinated immunity triggering another pandemic.

Why is the metaphor incorrect?

The semi ought to have onboard safety mechanisms to prevent same and insurance to cleanup the mess. The responsibility for a wreck is with the semi, not the residents of that street. Thus, if you're concerned about measles, by all means vaccinate yourself and wear a mask. But I'm not paying to have a foreign substance injected into my body because you're afraid.

You use authoritarian here derisively as if its a personal failing to suggest that the public health and safety is worth more than a point of principle at no cost to the individual. I guess you also are a total anarchist and live in the middle of the wilderness using only what you have created yourself and never profiting from social projects. But if that were true you wouldnt be able to post on this russian botnet forum.

But you see it IS at cost to this point individual - indeed, at least three separate costs : a health cost (don't know about you but I tend to get sick from vaccines, let's forget the possible long term ramifications at the moment) AND a very real financial cost AND a cost from the nonconsensual violation of my physical body. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

I keep saying this, it is not for me. My body is capable of surviving these things a good amount of the time because I have a fully functioning immune system just as you do. It is because infants, elderly, sick, recovering from surgery, and those with weakened immune systems who are at risk. I'm not afraid I will die I am afraid others will. If you are wiling to sacrifice other people who are unable to make this choice because they cannot benefit directly from the protection, you are intensely selfish.

So is the cost of not letting us shit in the streets, but move to India if that is too much to have your body violated by preventing defecation, the health cost of having to hold your shit in and the financial costs of having to have a bathroom instead of a shitting street.

>But I'm not paying to have a foreign substance injected into my body because you're afraid.
Hypocritical and retarded beyond the pale, it sickens me that you ostensibly can vote. Go live on a deserted island.

You're the one attempting to enforce compulsory vaccination, so it is for you. Don't get all protecty, authoritarians love to fall back on that argument. And I'm sure you believe it - hell, it may even be objectively true - but you don't get to decide. Whether or not I elect to bear costs and violation of my physical person is purely my choice.
>don't start a slippery slope tactic, we can go really far down and you'll not succeed. I'm a woman, imagine the similies I can draw...

>incorrect metaphor and you know it
>are you literally shaking?

Putting aside that your anecdotal evidence means precisely nothing the health cost is a net positive you dolt that is the entire fucking point, the financial cost is self inflicted because America refuses to adopt a single payer healthcare system, and the "non consensual violation of your body" is irrelevant as there is already a host of laws we must adhere to that do this as is ie public indecency.

is this the power of american education?

tits or gtfo

Logic and metaphor remain flawed, argue properly or concede.

So what I just pulled from that is it doesn't matter for you if it is true just that your feelings aren't hurt?

Also the "you do it for you" argument was old when Hobbes used it and your application lacks all subtlety. I want it because I don't want people who can't protect themselves to die.

Oh please, elucidate, how this is different? This is literally the basis of public health. It's why I can't just start selling food on the side of the street and give everyone GI distress because I didn't know to wash my hands after handling raw meat.

Arguments remain flawed. One would think your non-American education would have allowed you to identify same. I cannot exchange intelligent arguments if you won't stick to your point.

Saying something is wrong and then refusing to say why isn't an argument it's one person getting on a soapbox with cotton in their ears. Also nice assertion, I live in the US.

personal anecdote unrelated
>never got flu shots, since never got the flu
>go to uni and be introduced to 60k people
>get flu
>absolute torture for a week and half
>cough in class even after recovery
>always get a flu shot now
I don't care if flu shots took 5 years off my life
(((they dont))), Im never going through that again

Yes but it's late at night and I don't want to delve into the mechanics of discussion. Maybe tomorrow if I've got the time and pluck.

I like never get the flu shot
I just don't remember
I only get sick like once a year anyway, I definitely just jinxed myself

#

No, vaccines aren't compulsory at this time, but anytime this debate comes up it seems like that is what people advocating for vaccines would like to see become a thing. And all in the name of public health/ herd immunity.

Most states still have exemptions for children to be able to attend public school without all their vaccinations up to date, which is awesome, especially the medical exemptions. Why should a child that is allergic to nuts, be forced to risk anaphylactic shock due to the nut products in vaccines? Because they are worried that child will otherwise catch measles? Which is treatable with a course of vitamin A?

There are a lot of what ifs that we could talk about, for both sides of the debate, but in the end, what works for you may not work for someone else and that is a conversation to be had with your doctor and with informed consent.

Gary Null from the Gary Null Show says vaccines are bad, and he's a progressive

>Allow natural selection
>Most of our ailments disappear because everyone who doesn't become immune will be dead.
>Problem solved

listen here u dumb fuck flu shots do not protect you from the flu. They only protect you from a certain type of flu. Not every flu is the same. The flu vaccine that they are giving you only covers one strain of the flu. That shot is nothing but a way to make money off you and see what the chemicals in the vaccine will do to your body. You are a test dummy for science , Flu vaccines are pointless.

Vaccines are great and they are needed. However, they are also a great way to do all manner of shady things to the mass public. Here's one thing to keep in mind about the government, the medical community, the religious community, hell anything really,

"Lie to me once, shame on you.
Lie to me twice, shame on me."

How many times have these institutions lied to the public? Personally, I'd rather get rid of all healthcare and allow nature to take its course.

lol There was one year here when there was 3 types of flue going around at the same damn time. One of them was swine flu.

goddamn what are you trying to say with that graph

Vaccines in theory are good and some neccesary

However vaccine QA and safety is complete dogshit. It's complete corporate propaganda strawman bullshit to think anyone disputing vaccines is stupid.

Vaccines like all things have side effects and there have been a good number of unintended severe side effects and even official recalls due to contamination

>if we cherry pick the right set of years then the number of cases of child cancers has increased and it is clearly due to vaccinations and not anything else!

>>Most of our ailments disappear because everyone will be dead.
>>Problem solved

Now I know that's going too far, but can you imagine what the world would be like if things like polio or small pox were wide spread again?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Like how we have smartphones now, and don't do lobotomies anymore.
Therefore, smartphones prevent lobotomies.

>don't do lobotomies anymore.

discovermagazine.com/1997/oct/lobotomysback1240
wired.com/2011/03/lobotomy-history/
modernnotion.com/history-of-lobotomy/
gaia-health.com/conventional-medicine/psychiatry/lobotomy-returns-kinder-gentler-new-name/

I am anti vaccine because I was raised to be that way since my mother was. Now im all for getting vaccines for required things e.g. chicken pox, mumps, rubella, etc. but there is no way im getting optional ones.

many vaccines come out years later saying that they may indirectly cause cancer, and who knows what else they could cause later lin life? i dont want to be a test gerbil just to avoid getting the flu every year.

Your mother did a piss poor job of raising you then. There is no link between flu, hepatitis, etc. vaccines and cancer. Not even HPV. Their ability to infect you is either >90% hindered or completely inactivated.

>I'll get vaccines but I won't get some vaccines because of arbitrary reasons

what I mean is that vaccines are by and large a closed case, not an open issue, sorry for bad wording

>debate

Please don't misunderstand being a contrarian as actually being a critical thinker. They are not the same.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

As someone who used to skeptic about vaccines, there is really only one issue, and that is, any time you bring up the idea that vaccines might be harmful at all (which they are not) everyone treats you like a brain dead toddler, and acts like your the most retarded person on the planet, because there favorite celebrity told them you were (though the same could be said about quite a few people who believe that vaccines do give you autism) i was skeptical about it, because i thought it was crazy how hard the media was shitting on people for it, because it made them look like they had something to hide, and i still support reviewing the need for vaccines, and making people look more into there process and production, not because i think the vaccines themselves are dangerous, but because i don't trust pharmaceutical companies for dick, and no one should.

>t. don't know how the immune system or bacterial evolution works

>being anti-government
>having anything to do with being anti-science or anti-vacc
kill yourself

Different user here, I see your point but you are just arguing semantics at this point, because you clearly cannot refute the core of his argument. I suggest you concede or find other means of arguing instead of attacking the presentation of someone else's argument.

Scared mom's cannot be convinced of anything once they decide on a course of action. They will adhere to their initial belief no matter what because they think they are protecting their child.

This is totally reasonable. Individual vaccines might be bad, because big pharma are generally assholes who are totally not above putting toxins in a vaccine if it saves them a little money.

What's unreasonable are the loudmouthed retards who claim all vaccines cause autism; that if you get one flu shot you'll be Chris-chan by the end of the week.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. That isn't even remotely how it works, even in simple terms that makes no sense as diseases are under natural selection.

Pin all those antivaxxer fuckers down and forcibly vaccinate them with a fucking jet injector!

>improvement in childhood cancer diagnostics 1973-1996

>anti-vaccine groups have concerns about things inside the vaccines because they sound scary at first glance
Anti-vaxxers have concerns based on their emotional needs, and then seek justification based on any straw they can clutch.

vaccination should be mandatory and who doesn't comply - thrown into jail. Also, fuck white people.

you forgot
>fuck trump

>Spending any time at all on this topic

>i'd rather get rid of all healthcare and let nature take its course
If you had ever been in a life threatening situation but were then saved by modern healthcare, I doubt you'd be saying that.