Living on venus

i have seen documentaries and videos about putting cloud city like habitats on Venus

what do you think it will cost and would it be even work

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Circulation
youtube.com/watch?v=a-SnxC-BkPo
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050198938.pdf
twitter.com/AnonBabble

sub-scale testing showed quite a few flaws in the idea

i think that to even the idea of a floating city would make this an extreme task

nowadays they would probably have some sorts of fails are in play, but yeah, it would be a problem

if they could create some kind of repulsion system to constantly keep the city at a certain distance than this would be a lot easier but then you'll have to deal with the harsh condition

i think nasa had plans to do this with venus, so all you would need to do is to let it float at a height where the atmosphere pressure inside and outside the balloon is similar

now on the cost it would probably cost around 10,00000 passably more

having the city float where the pressure inside and outside the city is similer is a good idea but im not sure if it could work with Venus' atmosphere

actually i think it was air density, kinda like how at a certain point the air gets thin enough that helium can get some kind of neutral boyancy

yes but that point would have to be above the clouds of sulfuric acid unless they use some kind of acid proof material all around the city and if so im not sure anyone could go outside

$3.50. Absolutely. LANDIS LAND HO!

asking would it work is like asking do boats even float

i meant i would we make it work

i meant how would we make it work

interesting do you know if it is being constructed

$3.50 seems a little cheap

Baloons, orbital tether, or prefab the whole thing then put it together and drop it into the atmosphere. You only need to get one structure stable and then it becomes easier from there, iirc venus' atmosphere is so dense that you can easily lift large structures in the upper atmos thereby avoiding the worst of the corrosion and winds. I think issac arthur has a
yt video on it that gives a good overview.

A venus upper atmosphere colony is more realistic than a mars colony, that's for sure
>decent availability of light for solar panels
>atmosphere full of useful gases
>gravity comparable to earth
>no toxic destructive rust powder storms
>thick atmosphere makes lifting mined cargo from the surface easy (granted, mining drones rugged enough to survive the venusian surface conditions will be too heavy to be economical to produce on earth and then lift in to space, so we'll probably have to have space or at least moon based production facilities first)

tfw no venus gf

>hear about this isaac arthur guy here and there
>look up a video
>he has the r - w speech impediment
jesus christ, it isn't like we don't even know why that happens, and it isn't a physical problem with your body. It happens because you try to articulate R with your lips instead of your tongue. Just learn to make Rs correctly. If you're older than 10 and still do that just fucking kill yourself. It's no harder than a non-scottish english speaker learning to make the kind of R sound that you can trill.

>30 minute venus video with a speech impediment

jfc

>What will it cost
>Would it work

Better question, why?

He left out the "billion"

Then why can't Asians learn it? Maybe it's because doubling back the tip of your tongue is actually quite a feat. Maybe it actually has to be learned as a kid or the tongue muscles don't develop properly. In specific cases it could also be due to damaged nerves or muscles in the tip of the tongue.

Asians can and do learn it, the ones who haven't are the fresh off the boats, or the ones who make no effort to integrate.
In either case you can then still articulate an alveolar R, which sounds a little weird in english, unless you're scottish, but it doesn't make you sound like a retarded child.

No Asians don’t do the L sound. They use an r sound in place of L. As in ‘so Ronery.’ They don’t switch them like a lot of people think. They don’t make L sounds for R because as I said they can’t make L sounds easily.

Not quite. The typical sound asians make is an alveolar tap or trill, which is somewhere between an R, an L, and a D. L and D are articulated almost the same in english, the only difference is you seal the airflow with your tongue to make a D. The english R is farther back.

Except the atmosphere of venus is so hot that any probe that has been sent burned up in a matter of minutes.

Funny how we have pictures from the fucking surface, then.
All the probes did end up dying not long after settling on to the very hot surface, but those probes were delicate. Not rugged. The exact caveat I mentioned about the sort of things that will be needed to mine the surface.
And just in case you're being a giga-brainlet; the atmosphere isn't just as hot as at the surface the whole way up.

that's a picture of mars, I'm very tired

The later Soviet lunar landers lasted up to 2 hours. The atmosphere was found to be laced with sulfuric and hydrofluoric acids, regular wind speeds were at hurricane levels, and the surface pressure was over 90 Earth atmospheres.

>>helium
ha, Venus' atmosphere is CO2 which means that breathable air is a lifting gas on venus!

>those probes were delicate

First of all they weren't delicate, they were encased in a metal vault and easily survived landing without a parachute. Secondly, why the fuck would being delicate matter if it was destroyed by heat? Electronics can't survive 400 degrees celsius, whether they're 'rugged' or not. Faggot.

>cost

Very expensive, even if the investment required to get the first floating balloon outpost above Venus would be about the same as getting the first surface outpost on Mars, the investment required to get a self sustaining floating colony above Venus would be vastly more than a self sustaining Mars colony. This is because a Mars colony could work with the resources of the surface of Mars to fill many of its needs and require less stuff from Earth. A Venus colony would require everything to be sent form Earth except for oxygen to breathe.

>would it even work

I don't doubt that with unlimited effort and expense we could get some kind of floating city built in the atmosphere of Venus. However, such a city would be a dead end, unable to expand or even fully sustain itself without help from Earth. The advantages of floating in Venus' atmosphere are totally overshadowed by the disadvantages in my opinion. The disadvantages include; little to no resources to use, a precarious living situation hanging from balloons, the requirement of large rockets to launch back into orbit from the colony, difficulty of access for shipment vehicles, presence of high winds, presence of sulfuric acid, no access to vital resources from the surface, and so on.

I can't think of a reason why we would prefer investing billions upon billions into a Venus cloud colony rather than a Mars surface colony. Mars is advantageous in that its low gravity allows future efforts in space exploration to be much easier, and its large amount of surface resources make surviving there feasible with today's technology. Venus at the very least would require large advancements in technology to be feasible, and may not become feasible even with advancements in the future.

Venus' atmosphere is CO2, meaning hydrogen can be safely used without hindenburging

why not? Why not have casinoes floating in the clouds of Venus with a heaven and hell theme. Like have heavenly views from above the clouds and hellish tours of the surface from a combination of zeppelin-submarine.

Hell, you could probably do really long sky diving too cause the atmosphere is so dense. So yeah you could put wings and a magnesium fueled jet engine to fly low in the atmosphere of venus

the image goes to show how we would survive in the clouds of sulfuric acid

>This is because a Mars colony could work with the resources of the surface of Mars to fill many of its needs
[citation needed]

> A Venus colony would require everything to be sent form Earth except for oxygen to breathe.
Not true, but Venus does pose challenges that conventional tech wouldn't handle, eg high temperature mining.
For initial colonization and expansion you would just be dredging the surface + extracting from atmosphere, very simple & doable.

lol no. You wear that below the clouds were pressures and temperatures are much higher. You would wear pic related in the very rare scenario you have to do work outside when the colony is in the clouds.

You need the colony to be above the clouds because solar power.

>clouds of sulfuric acid
Getting tired of idiots saying this thinking it is the same thing as industrial strength acid. Flying through it or even getting rained on will have almost no effect on unprotected skin. Wear a rain slicker during a downpour and you'll be fine. We've literally had as bad clouds on earth back when fuels had more sulfer in them.

Also this nonsense about the surface or planet is too hot is ridiculous. Earth is too cold to support life at similar pressures.

>durr we'd be sending electronics to venus that are held together with fucking solder and glue

>isaac arthur

Here's a ring oscillator made from ceramic, silicon carbide, and gold operating at 600 °C, your argument is irrelevant.

hell yeah

Off topic for this thread, but you seem to know about thesethings --0 Igot to visit China a few years back, some of the gfolks in the area SE of Beijing (and possibly elsewhere) made this really weird variant of "R" that sounded way on the back of the throat, was fairly gettral, not quite a trilled "R," voiced, almopst sounded swallowed. I can;t reproduce it at all -- I can hear it in my mind as I type this, several years later, but can;t make the sound at all.

Do you know what I am talking about?

CAEAT -- a sample of wind speed lasting up to two hours would not establish whether that was regular wind, or your probe happened to land during a wind storm.

"Why not" is a good enough reason to do something easy. It is not a serious motive for doing something insanely difficult that requires a large commitment of time, effort and resources.

>Also this nonsense about the surface or planet is too hot is ridiculous. Earth is too cold to support life at similar pressures.

How is that even slightly relevant to anything? Earth atmosphere is not at similar pressure.

But if you send people or equipment to the surface of Venus, the temperature is going to be one of the issues you have to deal with -- it is part or all of what killed the Soviet probes.

the only odd r related feature of mandarin that I know of is rhotic vowels.. And that shouldn't be odd to you since english has them too.

no, Venus high winds are a well documented phenomenon. They aren't a problem for a floating colony though because the colony moves with the wind.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Circulation

Well it could work, but it would cost a lot most likely so it would just be better to colonize Mars

Prove that it would cost a lot more compared to mars

I've never been bothered by his speech impediment at all. It's kind of cute in a weird way.

You'd have to ship in all the infrastructure andm ost resources for the colony since getting stuff off the surface is going to be very very hard-Mars's surface is much more easily accessible. Mars also has vastly more water available-the atmosphere of venus has only 20 ppm of water in it,you'd have to so a fuckload of energy-intensive processing to get it out while delaing with the corrosive chemicals in it.

Mars' surface would wear the shit out of equipment with all the dust, and you'd need a lot more solar panels, and they'd require constant maintenance to clear them of the dust.
Also, by 'corrosive chemicals' you mean sulfur dioxide, which is pretty straightforward to remove from water.

We have experience with rovers and other devices on the surface of mars, some of which have survived over a decade past their intended function time. It's a serious concern but there's been decades of technical work on dealing with the dust and creating materials that avoid being compromised by it and we have actual real-world examples of that kind of tech in current action. The proposals for moving ore or other objects off Venus are creative and interesting,like that metal folding balloon idea,but they're at a much lower TRL then martian tech is.

I don't have anything against colonizing Venus, but it's a ways off.

This is what making false assumptions leads to /sci. Don't be this guy .

It seems kind of strange to me that Venus was named after the Roman godess of love and beuty but its surface is a firey barren hell, both soulless and hostile to any kind of life.

Did the Romans know something we didn't?

>>You'd have to ship in all the infrastructure andm ost resources for the colony
and do you have any proof for that? The atmosphere of venus has pretty much everything you need to expand a colony in the near term. Plastics, carbon fiber, graphite, can all be made from the atmosphere.

>>only 20 ppm of water in it,
and on mars you have to dig for it, while on Venus it can be condensed from the atmosphere. Plants that extract neon from air(which is at similar concentration in earth's atmosphere) can operate without people, while mines cannot. There are also local concentrations of water at certain altitudes, clouds.

It won't happen, it's extremely unnecessary, and much easier to live on Mars.

More like they knew the same things.

Sure thing, we are almost there yet

Oh well, thanks for the reply.

Here is a cat for your trouble.

>They aren't a problem for a floating colony though because the colony moves with the wind.

High winds usually means turbulence, though. Watch a "hurricane hunter" aircraft video -- I think high winds might well be an issue for your floating colony. Be sure to include a LOT of airsickiness bags.

Start at about 1:54
youtube.com/watch?v=a-SnxC-BkPo

probably a regional accent, possibly mongolian
china's a big place

>Plants that extract neon from air

Not sure what you are getting at here.

Air liquefaction plants, which extract neon from the air(18 ppm in earth's atmosphere), can run more or less without people. Anything that involves moving dirt around currently requires people because of how difficult the process is. In fact a rand study found that systems that handle granular materials operate at 63% of their design capacity.
ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050198938.pdf

While we can model fluids quite well, we do not have a very great understanding of granular materials. In addition no scaling laws for granular materials exist. What this means is anytime we want to make a new concrete plant or a machine to boil dirt, the only way to test it is at full scale. This is an expensive proposition on Earth and an even more expensive proposition on mars

That airplane was flying through the eyewall, a particularly turbulent region of the hurricane. They were in the hurricane before they entered the eye wall, notice how calm everything was?

Flying in 200 mph winds is no different from flying at 200 mph ground speed in 0 mph winds
Passenger Planes normally fly at 400 + mph

Going to the surface of Venus is equivalent to going to the "surface" of the earth at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

Sea level on Venus is 55km up, there isn't any land to land on.

But there is land to land on, it's just hot.

Thats like saying the bottom of the ocean is land

seriously wtf are you smoking

we have been to the surface of Venus and got some piccys b4 everything corroded to shit

As far as material to sustain the colony goes I think the moon colony us an excellent source. Iirc launching just about anything from the lunar surface is about as easy as throwing it really hard. All the heavy shit needed to expand the colony can come from Luna at a fraction of the cost of launching material from earth.

That being said I agree that a colony that needs constant restocking missions is less of a colony and more of a research station.

I think the offworld colony order should be: Moon --> Mars --> Jupiter moons --> Saturn moons --> after that there isn't anywhere worth going until we figure out gereantional interstellar ships or high %C travel ships.

Nothing got corroded to shit, the electronics got too hot and their solder melted. In fact there is no sulfuric acid on venus' surface, it's too hot for that. Sure there's a bit of sulfur dioxide in the air, but not much. Where things get interesting is that the atmosphere is supercritical CO2.

Corrosion does happen, just not over the time periods the venera lander operated.

well whatever, it only lasted a few hours

And what do you need to expand the colony that can't be obtained from Venus?

We could make landers that last longer using a nuclear powered cooling system or silicon carbide electronics

you know we don't HAVE to use solder? If we were welding the electronic components together it'd necessitate using a sturdier substrate than the thin PCBs we use now, but that's hardly impossible.

Your commercial oven can manage 400 degrees celcius inside
It's not at all a super hot temperature

The problem is electronics surviving at high temps, not much money has been thrown at developing them

But perhaps they will be the ~next big thing~ and electronics that can survive on Venus will be the byproduct

it's probably feasible for a small research station.
cost in terms of current cost to do it? well, it would be very expensive to be able to make it self-sufficient, you'd have to have excellent water recycling because venus has very little H2O.

however, you'd probably want to do it after you already created a bootstrapped economy of production & mining done outside of earth. That makes launch costs go away and makes everything much cheaper, but we can't estimate how expensive it would be until we get that extraterrestrial industry going.

You'd likely first just send a bunch of autonomously-controlled balloons to monitor the winds etc. and figure out what location would work best. After that you could create larger floating habitats, create supply lines of water mined from asteroids past the frost line, beam in electricity from solar power satellites, create an ecology, and send in people. You could have equatorial airships that are for receiving and offloading materials (perhaps by some sort of skyhook) and other airships that drift off towards the poles, with other ships that shuttle between the colonies with supplies.

>create supply lines of water mined from asteroids past the frost line
Or just extract the endless billions of tons of water found in Venus's atmosphere.

asteroids and comets are also super important as a mining resource, and we should try to start learning how to mine them as soon as we are able to - preferably, to get water ice and then turn that into propellant.

How much mass do you need for a big ass solar umbrella that will freeze that wasteland? 1/10 moon?

The surface of venus is not as insurmountable as you think it is. Mining in high pressure, high heat situations is a technology that we can develop here on earth and have practical applications here. It'll happen, as surface resources become scarcer.

The pressure levels on Venus where people would want to live are far above the ground level. It is better to consider the planet an ocean world and plan accordingly. Yes we can put things on the ground, but they need to be built like submarines to survive crushing pressure, just as if we were putting things on the bottom of the ocean here. Much like living on the ocean, we can extract most or all of the resources we need to live and grow depending on what equipment and seeds we bring. Solar power is abundant and can be obtained by panels facing every direction thanks to cloud reflectivity. Acid isn't concentrated enough at the level we want to live to matter. The temperature is tropical at the level we want to live. You're not going to get more Earthlike in our solar system short of Earth.

solder isn't the problem. The problem is that silicon basically stops working as a semiconductor at about 300 celsius. So we have to use weird semiconductors like silicon carbide. Even making PCBs is hard. You have to use gold and a special ceramic substrate that won't expand much with the temperature change.

Ded

>what do you think it will cost and would it be even work
Good news, op! We will find out shortly.

Electronics don't work at 400 degrees C user. Semi conductors don't work. We've only recently developed semiconductors that can handle the temperature, and we're still nowhere close to developing entire integrated circuit boards and other components that can handle the temperature.

Water is extremely rare in Venus' atmosphere. Venus is the driest place in the solar system.

A comparatively tiny amount. The bigger problem is that the latent heat of condensation and freezing will make the process of actually freezing out the atmosphere take hundreds of thousands of years.

There's water in Mars' atmosphere too. Digging is not hard. Harvesting water ice by digging is far less energy intensive than harvesting humidity. It's also much faster.

Mars dust is iron oxide, it's a soft mineral. You're thinking of Moon dust, which is tiny crystals of corundum and abrades the shit out of everything that moves.

Venus has a super rotating atmosphere, the winds are always blowing.

The acid droplets are 100% concentrated, or close to it.

Yeah, a shitty one. Just for practicality we'd want to concentrate whatever the lightest gas is we can source from Venus' atmosphere. Hydrogen would be perfectly safe since Venus has no oxygen in its atmosphere.

I think cloud city colonization is dumb and won't happen though.

>hundred thousand years
>for the atmosphere to freeze
>with zero sunlight

Why? Earth is plenty big enough, if you have the manpower to colonize venus then why not fix Earth first?