What's the recommended reading order for the Veeky Forums books on Buddhism?

>I don't believe in God at all
We can fix that.

If you have not read anything on Buddhism already, give The Heart Sutra a shot. It is very short and you can read it in under five minutes.

webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html

Yah I'm kind of just being a dick. I've read some Zen stuff and a book or two by Dilgo Rinpoche (I think) and was not impressed so I went to Hinduism.

I liked that as poetry, but I don't think I understood very well. I'll think about it for a while, but thank you because that was beautiful.

Oh ya, I hear you man. I can't comment too much on Buddhism. Out if that list I've read Zen Mind and was left just thinking: "okay, what's next". The three pillars of Zen is pretty huge, so good luck with that.
Another user gave a list of actual scriptures, I would suggest reading those. Most spiritual books aside from scriptures aren't worth your time. Modern spirituality has been reduced to fluffy self help and feeling good about yourself. The Eastern view of God is very different from what the majority of Westerners think God is. If you want, I would be happy to give you some direction on Hindu scriptures. Either way, good luck and blessings user :)

I see. What Zen stuff have you read? I am always cautious of books that are not sutra texts and commentaries, because they are often diluted to tailor to western readers. There is a tendency for both Zen and Tibetan Buddhism to do this for different historical reasons. Tibetan Buddhism also tends to be esoteric (Vajrayana), so much of what you can find in English is the skim off the top of the religion, and all the particular author feels comfortable sharing with a wider lay audience.
If you can get a copy of the Diamond Suta, start reading that as well. It is similar in tone to the Heart Sutra, but with more cosmology built into it. I could give you my interpretation of the Heart Sutra, if you would like, but I doubt I could give it justice.

Sure, let's talk about the Heart Sutra. I suppose what it's talking about is being present, and the nonexistence of everything except for the present moment? But this line
>There are no eyes, no ears,
>no nose, no tongue,
>no body, no mind.
confuses me. Maybe it's saying these things don't really exist in their own sense because they're in a constant state of change. But on the other hand I'm trying to understand this rationally and almost literally which I'm pretty sure is a flawed approach.

Zen Mind Beginners Mind and I began reading Three Pillars of Zen. Not for me.
And The Excellent Path to Enlightenment by Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche.
I've read a bit from Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines by Walter Evans-Wentz as Yoga is one of my main interests, but ultimately went to Hinduism.

I'm not user who recommended Heart Sutra but I'll tell you what this means.

>There are no eyes, no ears,
>no nose, no tongue,
>no body, no mind.

You are not your thoughts, body, mind, senses. Any of it. Your true nature is emptiness. Absolute peace is only attained by personally realizing this.

Don't try to rationalize any of this. You cannot attain enlightenment through logic. It helps, and there are systems in place for it, but ultimately you need to master the mind through meditation, mantra, and whatever your guru prescribes.

Mahayana believes in an ultimate Dharma (truth or teaching) that is beyond description, and therefore attempts to expound it are naturally flawed. It is void and unvoid, but also not void and not unvoid. That is why the Heart Sutra seems paradoxical in saying
"Body is nothing more than emptiness,
emptiness is nothing more than body.
The body is exactly empty.
and emptiness is exactly body."
There is really no difference between emptiness and body, as they are the same in true reality. Form and Void - comparable to Yin and Yang of Taoism - are part of a greater reality and create one another. Therefore the world as we perceive it is both real and unreal.
Beings enlightened to the highest Dharma understand the true nature of reality; that is the "Perfect Wisdom" the sutra speaks about. The Mahayana practitioner seeks to clear the mind and accrue merit enough to one day realize the true Dharma, and "have Nirvana here and now".
This is where may misconstrue Buddhism by claiming it is "life denying". Yes, there are ascetic practices (esoteric schools), but lay practice relies on the accumulation of merit in order to be reborn in a position more favorable to become enlightened, for ignoring one's karmic bonds in this lifetime only creates more suffering. This process of bettering oneself is called bodhicitta, the wish to gain enlightenment for the purpose of helping all sentient beings.

Thank you. I'm thinking of going to a local Buddhist temple next weekend. Do you have a guru? Do you consider having one helpful?

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I am very skeptical of Suzuki's works because he was implicitly part of the counter-orientalist movement in the 20th century, which repackaged Zen out of its philosophical and religious context in order to appeal to existentialist western intellectuals, thereby making Imperial Japan even with the West.
I suggest trying a sutra text before giving up on Buddhism altogether, because it seems to me that you have only experienced it through basic introductory texts (although I am not familiar with the Tibetan Youga Book you mentioned).

No, I don't have a guru. In a traditional sense they will be helpful but you will be hard-pressed to have an authentic guru-disciple relationship here in the West, it's just not possible. You can still meditate, give alms, and do mantra. I'm sure a priest will be able to give you wonderful guidance as well. Good luck user.

Different user, I don't have a guru, and I don't think one is especially helpful. What is very helpful, is having a community of peers.

Yah maybe I'll dabble a bit. I'm pretty deep into Hindu texts and I dont really feel the need to explore anymore. Thanks for the insight. Om Shanti.

If I only read one book on Buddhism, which should it be?

I'm OP. So far, for the OP image, I'm almost done with Buddhism Plain and Simple, and it's pretty good. It's only like 150 pages, but my concern is that it's presenting too westernized of a form of Buddhism. On the other hand that's kind of what I need since I have no basis for understanding Buddhism whatsoever.

>all those Zen books

ignore everything besides the anthology of Nikayas (In the Buddha's Words)

Isn't Zen watered down Buddhism for Japanese?

the Chinese
and Bodhidharma was a very interesting figure

the Zen Buddhists heavily emphasise practice before thought

its like the combination of Buddhist and Daoist ideas

The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way

Some modern occultist adaption has incorporated that, but it's not OG as I'm aware. The interesting thing about Kabbalah is that it's compatible with Christianity, as Kabbalists believe that God reveals himself in multiple emanations, like the Trinity.

Thanks, I guess I'll get and read that one next. Also I don't want to read all these books because it seems like there's a lot of overlap between them.

what's wrong with Zen?

Why should anyone go beyond Therevada buddhism?

we utterly lack any monastic tradition in the west so Theravada isn't very helpful for us here

honestly the lack of proper "teachers" really hampers us in many ways, but allows us more freedom and breadth in others.
people take Asian Buddhism too seriously despite being chock full of superstitions and frankly nonsense or other cultural baggage.
nothing terribly "pure" about most of it.

for me I've always found the Thai forest tradition to be very interesting, likely because it incorporates Western ideas.

>we utterly lack any monastic tradition in the west so Theravada isn't very helpful for us here

Yeah thats an issue ive noticed. Therevada groups in my city seem to be real/ethnic nationalist groups rather than religions. ie the Pali canon is more of an idol than source of ideals

The fact so many Tibetans got driven into exile probably was the best thing to happen to them trasmission wise.

Outside of of bs groups like Pure Landers is it correct in your view that the vehicle doesn't matter all that much and there is no need to be dogmatically attached to one vehicle or school?

>for me I've always found the Thai forest tradition to be very interesting, likely because it incorporates Western ideas.

Can you expand on this?

I would argue that a genuine Buddhist community is developing in America, but it needs dedicated practitioners to oust the tourists
focusing too much on emulating Asian tradition will really get you no where as there is technically nothing "more" legitimate in Asian Buddhism
According to Buddhist texts, the Buddha stated that his teachings would only survive uncorrupted for 500 years after his death. After this point, if one wanted to reach nirvana, they would have to tease out the impurities themselves; and fill in the blanks of the aspects of the Dharma which had been lost through their own efforts.

theravada-dhamma.org/pdf/Ajahn_Thate-Bio_of_a_Forest_Monk.pdf

Thai forest tradition is an offshoot of Theravada practice, in short it focuses on purity of action and genuine practice over ritual methodology and strict adherence to religious texts.

Any recommendations on text that explain how to maintain presence and mindfulness? I just don't have the will or the energy to keep my mind from wandering.

>After this point, if one wanted to reach nirvana, they would have to tease out the impurities themselves; and fill in the blanks of the aspects of the Dharma which had been lost through their own efforts.

Do you think the Buddha was right about this loss?

>Thai forest tradition is an offshoot of Theravada practice, in short it focuses on purity of action and genuine practice over ritual methodology and strict adherence to religious texts.

So its more like Tibetan or Mayahanan buddhism in this respect?

all it takes is practice
you don't be able to deadlift 500lb your first week at the gym

>Do you think the Buddha was right about this loss?
I believe so, this naturally happens with any teaching

look how different Christianity has become compared to the earliest texts discovered from within a century or so of Christ.

I'm OP so I'm new to this stuff as well. Don't try, don't fight. Just notice, don't condemn. When you're feeling nervous about the future for example, or thinking about something not present, don't judge or feel upset, but just be mindful of that very feeling. Think to yourself
>I'm currently feeling nervous about the future.

Sense how your body reacts to this nervousness, without judgement. Observe tightness in your chest, or how your lips are a bit drawn, or how your brow is furrowed. Instead of fighting or condemning anything, just notice it. Now you're being mindful. It's not willpower or energy, just notice and see yourself and the world around you. And I got that from Buddhism Plain and Simple, a pretty nice little book.

>look how different Christianity has become compared to the earliest texts discovered from within a century or so of Christ.

But Buddhism is vastly different in its foundation to Christianity. For Christianity all truth is tied 100% to revelation through prophets accordingly the only valuable information is from those prophets or those close to them - indeed its one of the reasons why forgery was such a big issue in the early church, indeed new materials can only be false unless it is the discovery of old material.

Christians do not care what is said only who said it

Buddhism is different in that the truth it tied to experimentation and practice - Gautuma was just an ordinary man- hence there is no reason for a closed canon or for new sources or methods being less than the original ones.

I only mean in terms of ideological shift and natural "muddying" of the ideas over time.

the Buddha set down his middle path as the avenue to enlightenment, as that original way was augmented and twisted through repeated translation/transmutation it then became necessary for new minds to develop "the way" once more as it works for them, either personally or as a society.

this is why I have no issue with "western Buddhism" as we in the west need to develop our own practice and not tie ourselves to Asian traditions only

I agree, the part where I cease to do that (and thus fail at mindfulness) is when I'm playing a game or watching engaging tv or book and instead of devoting a portion of my attention to my reactions or my mind, I completely give all attention to the game.

That's the difficulty, keeping some of my attention on me, my body, when the activity steals it, sending me into unconsciousness/mindlessness/a state of complete identification with the activity.

You can only be mindful if you're present, but activities steal presence. That's what I need to learn to safeguard against.

the samyuta nikaya
accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/

People who believe in god cannot beyond their little fantasy. it is a pity really.

materialism is the real pitfall

>I agree, the part where I cease to do that (and thus fail at mindfulness) is when I'm playing a game or watching engaging tv or book and instead of devoting a portion of my attention to my reactions or my mind, I completely give all attention to the game.
go back to feeling the body and to notice that you are not non-mindful and when the drift arise, do not entertain it (by knowing that there is no point in entertaining it, because you already tried drifting away and it never ever stop unhappiness for good, so you might as well try to do the opposite of what you always do).

also, the only natural way, where you do not need to force anything, to be good at concentration is to have pleasure, but non-sensual

Bhikkhus, for a virtuous person, one whose behavior is virtuous, no volition need be exerted: ‘Let non-regret arise in me.’ It is natural that non-regret arises in a virtuous person, one whose behavior is virtuous.

“For one without regret no volition need be exerted: ‘Let joy arise in me.’ It is natural that joy arises in one without regret.

“For one who is joyful no volition need be exerted: ‘Let rapture arise in me.’ It is natural that rapture arises in one who is joyful.

“For one with a rapturous mind no volition need be exerted: ‘Let my body be tranquil.’ It is natural that the body of one with a rapturous mind is tranquil.

“For one tranquil in body no volition need be exerted: ‘Let me feel pleasure.’ It is natural that one tranquil in body feels pleasure.

“For one feeling pleasure no volition need be exerted: ‘Let my mind be concentrated.’ It is natural that the mind of one feeling pleasure is concentrated.

“For one who is concentrated no volition need be exerted: ‘Let me know and see things as they really are.’ It is natural that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really are.

“For one who knows and sees things as they really are no volition need be exerted: ‘Let me be disenchanted and dispassionate.’ It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate.

“For one who is disenchanted and dispassionate no volition need be exerted: ‘Let me realize the knowledge and vision of liberation.’ It is natural that one who is disenchanted and dispassionate realizes the knowledge and vision of liberation.

I get you. That is one of the hardest things I find when it comes to approaching Tibetan Buddhism, I find it hard to distinguish between those traditions that are genuinely beneficial to practice and those which are dogmatic hangovers from the Nyingma masters incorporating local beliefs in order to spread what was then a foreign religion.

I did read a funny example of this with respect to Theravada where one of the early adopters in the US tried to live out the monastic precepts of living off of alms in New York until the Thai embassy which was the only group supporting him talked him out of it.

the ultimate redpill

>Kabbalah compatible with Christianity
hardly. sharing some common motifs is not grouds for compatibility - however i will admit that it does somewhat bridge the gap between the strict monotheism of the Jews and the transcendent plurality of the Godhead in Christianity. There is an important distinction though I believe, and it is that the different personalities of God in the Kabbalah are more like emanations than something of his internal, truest substance, since the idea is that God is inherently unknowable, but that we can relate to him by the images he casts.

bump

keeping this alive
I recently read pic related and found it pretty good, its fairly basic of an intro to some Tibetan ideas and fairly "secular"

not that I want something secular but going heavy on the spiritual stuff may confuse new people.

I agree. Also let's not forget neophytes are more enthusiastic about Buddhism which helps attaining Enlightenment and stuff. Strength of Buddhist traditions lies in number of people who really want to attain Enlightenment, not strength of it's institutions.

I don't know, but most people find Mahayana ideals more palatable. I find Theravada texts more clear than anything else in Buddhism with teachings clearly not pulled out of ass but helpful in attaining Enlightenment and nothing more.

Alos I don't know why Nanavira Thera hasn't yet become a meme here. He knew and commented works of philosophers like Sartre or Heidegger, had personal correspondence with Julius Evola and translated his works on Buddhism, attained first stage of Enlightenment and being unable to go further on the Path he committed suicide.

Wow, OPs chart isn't actually terrible. Good job whoever compiled it.

As for what order? I can heartily recommend Mindfulness in Plain English (and any other of Bhante Gs books) for simple and practical instruction on what to actually do.

In terms of the theory and culture: What the Buddha Taught by W. Rahula is the gold standard intro. If you're still worried about Hagen's 'westernised' Buddhism, then try Rahula - it's the common core of doctrine that all Buddhist sects accept from within the Theravada perspective.

Gethin's Foundations of Buddhism is the perfect historical/cultural/philosophical introduction from an academic perspective. He's a western academic, but a very knowledgeable (and I believe practising Buddhist) one.

Mark Sidertis' Buddhism as Philosophy is the real fuckin' deal if you want to get into the various philosophical schools that developed after the writing down of the pali canon, through to the development of Mahanyana via Madhyamaka. HOWEVER, it is a proper philosophy book so if you're not comfortably with terminology concerning epistemology and ontology then you will shit out pretty quickly.

Wings to Awakening
Taming the Mind

Thank you! Yeah it's a nice chart I guess, but there's no order or organization in it, so it's a bit overwhelming to look at it all at once and have no idea what the books are about or where to start other than what you get from the covers. Buddhism as Philosophy sounds pretty far out of my comprehension right now, after I finish Hagan I'm going to read In the Buddha's Words, then I'll either check out Foundations of Buddhism (I love reading history) or What the Buddha Taught. Thanks again for your thoughtful answer!

How can illogical/irrational belief in some magic men be more vaible in any sense, sure its not super extreme views but it is a set of followed beliefs, rituals and even an afterlife theory just like other religions, its just more logical in the way that it admits it dosnt have all the answers. Cuck

>after I finish Hagan I'm going to read In the Buddha's Words
This is a nice direct route. I forgot to mention anthologies in that last post.

In the Buddha's Words is great because it's organised thematically so you can get a nice sample on various topics. Rupert Gethin has a nice anthology too called Sayings of the Buddha but that's organised as selections from the different suttas in the sutta pitaka.

Either way just beware that you're reading a primary source and it's not always transparent what they're actually talking about or the message they're trying to get across. That doesn't really matter though for a first time read because if you're serious the suttas will become a companion for life to be read and reread indefinitely. Passages that are completely opaque and strange will become clear if you revisit them in the future with greater knowledge and context under your belt. The Dhammapada is probably the single most approachable primary source from the Pali canon so if you struggle with some of the difficult stuff from In the Buddha's Words then you can try that alternative route.

Reading primary and secondary sources together is definitely a good bet for proper comprehension! Buddhism is a massive area of study so be prepared to encounter difficult bits, but perseverance and patience is probably key.

I'm currently reading Buddhism/s: An Intorduction by John Strong.
It's pretty straightforward and gives a very good insight in everything about buddhisms, I'd reccomend reading introductory texts such as this one to get the main picture of buddhism in its social, historical, political, moral and phylosofical context. Only after you understand this you can go on and study the teachings of the buddha and follow a school of preference.

What is it when I would like to apply some zen principles in my life but cannot completely become a Buddhist because I don't know what I believe and cannot become a monk because I am too tied to our world?

> I find Theravada texts more clear than anything else in Buddhism with teachings clearly not pulled out of ass but helpful in attaining Enlightenment and nothing more.

Is that the case more with modern Therevada texts? from what Ive read traditional Therevada had a pretty profound lack of meditation and mindfulness and an obsession with the rules of conduct for monks.

bump

bump from a different user

do not fight impermanence

>from what Ive read traditional Therevada had a pretty profound lack of meditation and mindfulness and an obsession with the rules of conduct for monks.
Yes. Lack of interest in Enlightenment in Asian Theravada was mentioned above:
But thanks to their rigidity we have still access to Tipitaka.

>Is that the case more with modern Therevada texts?
I thinks so. I'm a fan of teachers like Nanamoli Thera, Nanavira Thera myself. Western authors feel little pressure from traditional Theravada and there is little incetive to write texts to gain positionin in small Western Theravada communities too. There are also East Asian Theravadins like Thai Forest Tradition that get recognition in West for their dedication to attaining higher mental states and ultimately Enlightenment.

Bump because I hope the Buddhist guy from a few weeks ago dumps his knowledge in this thread.

>Jews
Definitely a meme.

At least we don't cling to ego in here.

Practice and find out what inspired the readings rather than read and never find out

>For Christianity all truth is tied 100% to revelation through prophets accordingly the only valuable information is from those prophets or those close to them
Not true for gnosticism, whose "church" was a non-hierarchical gathering of people who had personally experienced revelation through meditation and contemplation of scripture (which was seen as nothing more than an aid to personally attain revelation, not an objective story or set of guidelines).

Of course, you're right about current Christianity, but with regard to 100 years after the death of Christ, the original poster was right in saying that there was a huge divergence in practice and philosophy in various sects. The homogenization of theology is far worse in Christianity because its Church was more explicitly political and eventually organized enough to stamp out the heretics, whereas Buddhism has always emphasized personal practice and a fluidity of interpretation, making divergence between sects both inevitable and encouraged.

...

Honestly I'm just trying to get as much info as I can, because I won't ever make another Buddhist thread on Veeky Forums, and I've gotten really good responses so far that have given me a pretty good plan as well as a lot to think about.

> I won't ever make another Buddhist thread on Veeky Forums
Buddhist threads are regular on Veeky Forums and Veeky Forums. You can check the archives for past threads on buddhism.

>I'm just trying to get as much info as I can
Why the haste? Just let it be and don't force it.

>Buddhist threads are regular
I haven't been lurking that much for the past year. I checked the Veeky Forums archive but there wasn't anything on Buddhism, didn't even think about checking Veeky Forums, my bad.

>Why the haste?
Haste? Hm... I don't think I'm being that hasty, I just feel very curious and interested. But you're right, I'll stop bumping it and sage all my comments from now on in here so I don't clog up the board.

There is a reason sage is called sage. It's very wise to keep nice knowledge available only to those who are willing to search for them.

anyone have good meditation guides and ways to open chakras?

Ive just been to a few Buddhist meetings to the others who practice this what were the demographics like?

Additionally what are some of the key historical texts specific to the Tibetan Buddhists and not just Mayahanna in general.
I agree

holy shit who is this guy
youtube.com/watch?v=n79erzOJE6k

A guy who sells a lot of magic trinkets and charms on his website