What's this board's problem with biology? Why do you dislike it so much?

What's this board's problem with biology? Why do you dislike it so much?

Other urls found in this thread:

cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00776-3
arxiv.org/pdf/1704.04962.pdf
arxiv.org/pdf/1705.10862.pdf
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

no math

it's really cool.
it's my favorite science along with Chemistry.

What's so good about chemistry?

no math

you do lots of chemistry things

you know what's your stuff made of.

This

Premed people are insufferable faggots who think “orgo” is on the same level with analysis

no one here hates biology, there are just few people who do it at the graduate level, which is where it really gets interesting, but also way more complicated. Not to mention people are disillusioned with what bio is/what it can do, they here about CRISPR and immediately want catgirls, or ask about immortality.

You can't do any quantifiable research without it

But there is though. Not as much as physics but the math is still there, even if it's mostly statistical.

Bio fags suck at math.

Undergrad Premed are Arrogant Dicks/Cunts.

Bio PhDs are Brainlets who failed to get into Medical School.

I'm doing a bio degree and got an A in maths at A-Level.

I just find most fields of biology interesting.

Who the fuck goes for a PhD if they dont get into medical school. That's just stupid.

i'm a biologist
Veeky Forums and people in general don't think science is science unless you have to do useless equations and work in a soul draining job and enviroment

I feel like Chem is a brick wall at the start, when you have to memorize a lot of things, which as an engineering student with serious memory problems, I can't get tover the good stuff when it feels more like a science, and less arbitrary.
I also get the sense that schools teach you Chem before they can teach you the answers to the questions you want to ask.
>Why is this trend/law/property of some chemicals the way it is?
>It just is user.
>We don't have time to cover that user.
>you'll learn it in university user.
Years later in university they tell me why, and I no longer have to memorize it because I know the math to do it now.
Seriously, fuck highschool Chem.

someone who still wants to be called "Dr.".

It's messy.

Both literally (it's where poop comes from) and aesthetically as a science.

biology is amazing
a single organism is like a vast unexplored continent of interwoven evolved systems
I'm not saying you can't prefer physics but I really don't get how you would
it's also growing fast as fuck

biochem major here.

having taken many bio classes, fair amount of chem, and a year of physics, I've got my own experiences and those of others around me to draw from.

Intro bio is boring. It's memorization, maybe some verbal reasoning, but there's so much garbage to cover that people don't even know why they're studying it. They hear exciting news about gene editing and drugs but they get to learn "here's a plant and it likes sunlight and water." You're not studying underlying principles, you can't really make many predictions with what you learn, and it's just, like, a retarded mess of bullshit.

It's not immediately apparent, but bio gets way more interesting at the molecular level (for me anyway) and being able to understand the topic takes a lot of time and effort. The reason biology is a retarded mess is because our bodies are a retarded mess. It's not that there isn't math to apply, it's that you've got to get over a hurdle just to understand why you'd even apply math. There is so much shit we don't know that you can't just "start at the beginning with simple topics" because even something like Digestion can be tackled from many different angles with incredible complexity.

I think non-STEM people see The Sciences as Bio, Chem and Physics. I see Chem and Phys as the underlying science and Bio as the ultimate problem to solve. I think more people would appreciate it from that perspective.

There are people which are focused on people and their dogs. This regards the attentions of all aspects of their lives. 99% of women and 70% of men belong to this group. And there are people that entirely focus on objects (most Veeky Forums readers). Biology fascinates the former, physics an math the latter.

There is math, how the fuck do you think ecologists make predictions?

biophysics is mostly thermodynamics as well, there is a ton of math in biochem/biophysics at the graduate level. But most can just be outsourced, it's true many biologists dont like math or dont appreciate it on the level of the autists

> "here's a plant and it likes sunlight and water."

Can confirm.

We don't get to see real stuff until you get at least in the 3º year(growth rates in as many flavours as you want, communities photosynthetic rates, underlying mechanisms of action potential in neurons and how do they compare between different taxons...) you get more systematic and model based aproachs.

This is something you start to notice around your 2º year when memorization stops being usefull and you are actually presented with problems to solve.

> it's true many biologists dont like math or dont appreciate it on the level of the autists

I have seen people struggling with Math I in my university and that course was composed of simple derivation and integration.

Many people that got into biology didn't made the cut for medicine or veterinary studies(wathever is called in the US) and had this idea that biology is just about knowing a lot about different taxons.

By the time they realize their mistake they grow resentfull of math, treating it like an intruder in their perfect idea of what biology should be and by the time they manage to pass they will use it but only if they have to.

But biology is an enormous field so they can actually find a niche that only requires basic chemistry knowledge and getting digested data from computers.

>Many people that got into biology didn't made the cut for medicine or veterinary studies(wathever is called in the US) and had this idea that biology is just about knowing a lot about different taxons.
ill flat out say if you were premed or veterinary and only went into upper level biology (junior/senior level classes, or grad school) because of a failure to get into one of those programs, you're a moron. They are two completely different fields, all pre-meds i knew in undergrad didnt want to learn upper level concepts and all those that went to graduate school, myself included, never were pre-med or wanted to be involved in the medical field (except maybe on the research side). They're gonna be in for a very bad time.
but yea everything boils down to physics, which boils down to math. But im biophysics so that relationship is not only obvious, i see its application everyday

In my case, people who do biology in my country can still get a job in the medical sector or in veterinary so it's not absolutely retarded, if what you are looking for is working in hospitals contributing to healing people and they might get a chance to work with animals too, atlhough these jobs are scarce, and do not necesarily last for long at least they can say they got close.

Still somewhat retarded if you ask me, but in the end "wathever floats your boat"

I joined for celular cytology/microbiology so I never cared that much about those people anyway.

>celular cytology

Whups!

It even hurts my eyes

too many girls

>Biology fascinates the former, physics an math the latter.

what did he mean by this

too much memorization, and it does not pay

If you are doing what you do because you get paid, that is, if your primary motivation for doing what you do is /because/ you get paid, then you are doing what you do for the wrong reasons, and you live a pitiable existence.

I have a bone with the state of molecular cellular biology: it is still in a state of stamp collection, like electrodynamics was before maxwell. There are collection of facts, and phenomenological models describing small portions of these facts. I want to see a model that predicts how a sequence folds, interacts with other proteins and small molecules, how the structure reacts on post-traslational modifications and affects expression of genes. All of this in one, differentiable wrt parameters model. Then, biology will become a mature science.

i get what you are saying, but the bills dont pay themselves

Geneticsfag here, biology is probably the best science right now to undergrad in- of course, dependent on the program. It's an incredibly diverse field, with hard quantitative and predictive modeling with regards to biophysics, biochemistry, bioinformatics, etc., as well as many layers of analysis that allow for the bridging of nano to micro to macroscopic phenomena.

It's stamp collection, but it's not stamp collection for the purpose of stamp collection. It's stamp collection for the purpose of developing said models, as well as creating workable models that can be used prescriptively before having comprehensive understanding. The model of figure out gene -> figure out protein -> Break gene -> see what phenotypic effects there are/see what change in protein dynamics are caused is incredibly useful for elucidating the ways proteins interact within the overall biological environment.

I'd argue Biology is currently in its prime, with many different directions to take, a huge increase in scope thanks to Genetic Engineering advancements, as well as the synergy of AI/computational power on biological analysis being able to create more comprehensive models.

sure thing, it's all for the sake of immortality. But just look at the Landau-Ginzburg theory of superconductivity. It describes the phenomena, fits the data, but does not allow for profound understanding and engineering of superconductors. Same thing in biology: most of the gene regulation networks are just correlation analyses of microarrays. We still can not predict interactions from the microscopic details of protein structures. Biology is still before its prime, just like thermodynamics before statistical physics or superconductivity before microscopic theory.

I understand where you're coming from, but it seems different to me. That's mostly because we already know the mechanisms at play, we just lack the ability to model in order to predict, because it would involve predicting not only the electrochemical makeup of every biomolecule within a biological system that is acting on each other at once, but the location as well.

I guess the closest thing to discovering some kind of universal truth would be cracking the mystery of developmental biology/epigenetics in how, systematically, biological systems follow a set route of unpacking DNA- but even then, unlike being able to make the quantum/statistical bridge with regards to entropic analysis of thermo, or understanding superconductivity, it seems less like a missing piece of the puzzle and more like a puzzle that would take more time than there is time in the universe to solve.

That's why I think biology is really fine as it is in dealing with things on a "system of systems" sort of level. I ain't no engineerfag so I don't think it has to be prescriptive, and finding a unifying model would be fantastic, but I don't think the limitation lies in the limitation of the field but rather any potential form of analysis being not enough, with biochemistry and biophysics needing to be relegated to their local function, with any global model being a rough estimate at best (what with biological systems almost never being closed, and receiving different rates and amounts of different nutrients, chemicals, and even energy at a time).

I think not enough math is a better answer

The fact that you think taht intro statistics is math show the validity of 's comment.

Biofags suck at statistics

I don't think we'll ever approach such a state. The search space is too large. You're basically asking for a theoretical model that could predict the structure and function of Windows 10 just by observing the internal logic of the babbage engine. It's not a reasonable expectation.

To be fair you have to have a very high IQ to appreciate biology. The structures are extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of chemistry and physics most insights will go over the typical researchers head. There's also Darwin's nihilistic outlook which is deftly woven into the subject's foundation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Aristotle, for instance. The students understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to to truly appreciate the depths of these implications, to realize that they're not just good - they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike biology truly ARE idiots-of course they wouldn't appreciate for instance, the primalness in Siekevitz' existential catchphrase "the mitochondria is the power house of the cell" which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Watson and Crick's genius unfolds itself. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way I DO have a DNA tattoo. And no you cannot see it. It's for a chem waifu's eyes only- and even she will have to demonstrate that she's within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

Because people who post here were bullied so they only find satisfaction in bullying others. It's a vicious cycle, and has nothing to do with actual science.

So if it relates to real life, it's not science. If it's abstract it is. It's so simple.

Definitely not true in the USA. hospital biology jobs are very plentiful, but if you have a biology degree you won't be hired. Most hospitals want to see an MLT or MLS degree, which is usually a 2 year degree from a vocational school. Completely different from a bachelor's in biology. But there are lots of hospitals and lots more jobs than general biology.

underrated post

as other anons have said intro stats isnt math, additionally there is literally no math until late undergrad+

The majority of classes ive had to take have been math intensive
Stop talking out your ass
t. Marine bio major

Nice bait.


It's the biologists that consistently and collectively like 'science memes' (aka unfunny labworkpuns) and 'i fucking love science'. The practical applications of the work are cool, thats for sure, but labwork is plebtierwork and biologists only know about biology (and intro chem), while chem, math and phys have way more overlap with eachother. (Most of) biology is kind of an outsider yet it's occupied by cocky brainlets that like to debate religious people. You have to work hard for bio, thats true, but, nah, biology cant be appreciated without solid (i mean solid, not intro statistics/calculus 2) knowledge of maths and physics (little bit further than some newtonian mechanics) and most biology student are so occupied with circlejerking that they cant care less about actual science.

TLDR: biologists are often just stupid, categorizing them in the same basket as social sciences students in terms of humour and unworldliness

Nice

Yeah this, I know this feel. I think part of the problem is that they can't be as rigorous as a college course so it makes it difficult to cover all the information so they just try their best.

My problem with biology is Life sciences is a far superior term for encompassing all of the disciplines included in 'biology'

Well I'm glad I'm in the patrician category. I wish I had done physics though.

Philosophy is interesting, but I definitely missed the numerical / logical stuff of the sciences. I took as many formal logic classes as I could to make up for it.

The problem is that I stupidly dropped all sciences at 16 (I switched to humanities because I thought chicks would dig me more - yes it's a stupid reason) so I couldn't do a science degree (in Britain that's how it is). So I picked philosophy because it was the most technical/logical subject I could do with the subjects I had done.

Eh.

You're basically asking for a model that predicts the path of a tennis ball during a game of tennis. The physics of a ball are easy enough, right? Sure, but you also need to take into account the players, and the players can't be modeled by just looking at the ball. Even DNA is just a molecule, it doesn't have any real purpose by itself without the environment and machinery of the cell. And even outside of that, proteins are hideously complex macromolecules, with absurd computational requirements.

I love biology

Fag

The majority of Veeky Forums only knows high school level biology which is mostly decades old, so has no idea what cutting edge biology is and where it's headed.
Case in point these clueless posters.

math is needed more and more though. Think of it, modelling of single cell movement, genetic analysis, etc etc etc.

Did you at least get pussy?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about population modeling, which uses calculus and matrix algebra to identify which age classes are most important for population growth. I do agree though, that ecology and biology in general isn't math heavy.

I use this stuff as a comp sci phd student, it's pretty cool.

Biologists are a bunch of degenerates trying to get rid of God and replace him with Communism.

The day of the rope is fast approaching for you biologists and evolutionists.

god is an adaptive system

Where can I read more about process algebra

tell us more about where it's heading. any updated textbook with this stuff?

if engineers get made fun of when they use the 2nd most math after math majors than your faggot ass studying bat shit in caves is sure as fuck gonna get put on blast.

There is a lot to be said, no comprehensive books that I'm aware of.
I would say check out these kinds of papers
cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00776-3
10.1016/j.cels.2016.02.003
arxiv.org/pdf/1704.04962.pdf
arxiv.org/pdf/1705.10862.pdf
It's true that currently many biologists are scared of math but it will change in a few years when we'll see a lot more influx of math and related subjects (modeling in general, ml, persistent homology etc.).

It's my speculation that there's really high level math that can be applied to biological systems which we have't quite figured out how to do yet.

>It's the biologists that consistently and collectively like 'science memes' (aka unfunny labworkpuns) and 'i fucking love science'
>most biology student are so occupied with circlejerking that they cant care less about actual science.
>it's occupied by cocky brainlets that like to debate religious people
Literally what you just said can be applied to physicists, especially the 'I fucking love science' types

>European history significantly better than American history in both dimensions

thanks for the links. as an aspiring bio major, what kind of math should i know to futureproof myself?

I'm getting my Master's in Ecology right now and from what I've seen through seminars, conferences and in job postings there's a good future for anyone math-capable in any biology field. In academia, people are impressed when problems and solutions are quantified and described mathematically, so the people who can do this are more likely to win the competitions and grants. Outside of academia, at least in ecology, when you look up job postings there are always high level positions for data scientists who can apply what they know to the data that other people (non PhDs) collect. I also imagine that it's much easier for a mathematician to learn biological principles than it is for a biologists to understand higher level math. I'd personally like for more math savvy individuals to take a liking to biology and raise the bar for everyone else.

All seems like memes unless its actually proven to work in real application, unlike math because its most useful

CS/Biology double major here.
I'm the ultimate brainlet desu

My nigga
Med Major here

Not a biologist, I'm a software engineer, and I think it gives me a unique perspective on the beauty of biology

Biology is the study of dynamic systems of arbitrarily complex molecular automata. The immediate analogy is to Conway's Game of Life, but it's clearly at a few orders of magnitude above the complexity of that.

It's heavily math oriented if you want to think about it that way. It's all about things like fluid equilibria, protein folding, advanced molecular bonding techniques that the cells somehow found through their evolutionary algorithms. It's fucking fascinating

It's anti-intellectual to be "against" biology. We should be "for" every area of study. Yes, I mean legitimately every one. If you think biology is for brainlets because there's not enough math, then guess what - it's your intellectual imperative to go become a biologist so you can bring it into the new age of mathematically oriented thought. Math is the ultimate tool, right? Well this is a whole frontier of applications.

Man I wish I had a thousand lifetimes to study everything. Fuck what am I doing on Veeky Forums.

Biofags can you give me any good introductory books that look at biology from the perspective of dynamic mathematics compartmentalized systems maybe? Sometimes a software or math person would enjoy?

Wow user awesome graphic, that's exactly what I was trying to explain in my brainlet post here: Like I asked in that post, can you direct me to some biology books focusing on that aspect?

>unless you have to do useless equations
Sorry but if your equations are useless, you are a brainlet.

...user

The hardest math was useless until it wasn't

That's a nice bowl of ramen

...

calculus, statistics, maybe a little linear algebra. also know how to program and implement simple modeling, like ODE systems

great post

Idiots. If you become a doctor to get the name Dr. you are doing it wrong.

bio professor here
your gif is backwards

I guess that makes sense. Putting so much stress on the "neck" of that walker moving forward would no doubt buckle it.

Indeed.

Seems like it's going towards General System Theory/Complexity Theory

Google for CSP and Pi-calculus.

I like it. I'm working in a hematology lab right now, and I'm applying to grad programs in molecular biology and genetics.

>muh bio people can't do math
Bio major/Math minor here

If you're interested in pursuing academic research. I don't want to be a doctor, but I like research, and I want to continue studying.

>I want to see a model that predicts how a sequence folds, interacts with other proteins and small molecules, how the structure reacts on post-traslational modifications and affects expression of genes
Ok, get to work user

Because this is mostly a math and engineering board

At least that's what the undergrads on here think.

Too many girls and gay people, not enough calculating.

Because besides the 1% of people who actually want to get a PhD in some subfield of biology, and contribute towards the advancement of an important field, 99% of biofags just want to become a doctor for the pay/reknown. They have a passing interest in their field and the hardest thing they'll ever do is memorize a bunch of shit through brute force or organic chemistry, which isn't that hard if you actually try to understand the material instead of trying to memorize reactions.

They're the STEM equivalent of business majors, I guess. Not motivated by a love for the subject but instead motivated by what the subject can do for their own personal gain.

>inb4 b-but I'm getting an MD/PhD and I love research

Ok then you're part of that 1% that guess.

Seeing this post, I wonder how much of the biology bashing comes from the US. In europe people study medicine directly without getting any previous bachelor's degree, so ~100% of the people that study biology do it out of genuine interest in the field and most go postgrad.

>look at biology from the perspective of dynamic mathematics compartmentalized systems maybe
lmao that not how it works
have fun memorizing amino acids and orgo mechanisms.
"real" biology is only applied chemistry, because only biologists are autistic enough to make sense of the autism that chemists put out.

Indeed.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure half the people in marine biology are stacies who want a seaside job

>russian
Why is this there?

>Not motivated by a love for the subject but instead motivated by what the subject can do for their own personal gain.
yes id much rather do slave work for mr.sheklestien the university president

It's not numbers and not autistic enough.