Is Gender Fluid Real or is a disorder?

>discussing a social concept on a board about science

Gender isn't real, non binary genders are just an excuse for snowflakes and the mentally ill to act like their special and stand out from the crowd.

>Is Gender real?
No. It's a facet of "identity" that emerges from an imaginary relationship someone has with their genitals and hormones.

>Gender isn't real
Citation?

There are genetically and developmentally determined differences in the way the massive majority of males behave in comparison to the massive majority of females... That is my interpretation of what gender is, seems pretty fucking "real"

It's real. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional and a faggot/brainwashed libcuck. Plain and simple.

Not all males show a male-normative brain.
Not all females show a female-normative brain.

Shades of grey, spectrum, etc etc

Yep. There is similarity in brain topology between those who are about to undergo medical transition and the sex they are transitioning to, even before any treatment is administered

> I don't know what outliers are

Something cannot be objectively true if there are exceptions.

"Gender is a binary" and "there are exceptions" are incompatible.

How about "Gender is binary" and "Everything that doesn't fall into male or female is an illness of abomination and should not be normalized"

>knickers in a twist over other people
Smoke a doob and chill. We all die in the end.

Also, still not compatible.

> get mentally distressed because you feel you have the (((wrong))) genitalia
>not a disorder
>perfectly healthy

The word "gender" has lost all meaning to me. Seems like a useless word that we should all stop using. What if I suddenly claim to be a woman and commit to it even though biologically I'm a man and maintain the exact same appearance and way of dressing? Am I a woman now and you all have to refer to me as she? If not then why not? Is gender so shallow that it is defined by how you present yourself?

Gender is binary and the "exceptions" actually prove this fact, which is why queers, trannies, crossdressers and the rest of the snowflake guild feel compelled to dress up as the one or both of the two genders.

You hit the nail on the head bro, it's the same way with art. If I call something art, that object is art

>It's real
Citation?

Attention seeking mostly and trying to fit in with societal trends, which is tending towards collapse. Any genuine case is full blown schizophrenia and should be treated with all the respect and care a truly sick individual deserves.

Citation?

The thing with gender, is that it doesn't exist.

People are looking for patterns, and then giving it a label when people deviate from those patterns.

That, by itself is no issue, but problems arise when people attach value to it. Then expect other people to value their categorization the same way they do.

Most people won't care if you, for example, are a man and have long hair and are romantically passive.
The further someone strays from the pattern, the more traditionalists are bothered, for example a man wearing a dress.
People love patterns so this isn't too surprising.

Probably the biggest thing though, the things which has caused the most drama between the traditionalists and the people propagating the gender revolution, is that they take words and change what they mean. Which (((destroys public dialogue))) and just creates more public division.
For example, gender just used to men man or woman, but now it is not a synonym for sex, it is about personality traits and preferences. They take boy/girl which used to mean male/female and not it too is about personality and preferences.

Other issues which results from the gender revolution but I am too busy to go into detail on.
People are making their entire identities about gender. People with no substance are using a label and then using it to get as much attention as possible.
People are changing genders because they just want to be measured against the standards of the opposite sex.

Citation?

Psychology loosely defines a mental illness as something which is deviant (this would fit) and self-destructive (this would arguably not fit from case to case). At least, from what I remember of my psychology classes.

For people who say psychology isn't real, you can't really label it a disorder without some perception of normality.

It's the same with anything particularly against the institution- you have some idea of normality (a biological male should act this way in accordance to his biology). This is not necessarily a bad thing, but for me I think I've just given up on hot topic issues like this so in the end I just try to go along with whatever the people around me spout.

>People are making their entire identities about gender. People with no substance are using a label and then using it to get as much attention as possible.
>People are changing genders because they just want to be measured against the standards of the opposite sex.

i'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they're probably not just doing it for attention. i'm not totally convinced that the various phases of transition are actually preferable states of existence as opposed to coming to terms with ones actual gender, however.

they might initially "feel" better if they make themselves look more like a woman, but a full transition can never be achieved. perhaps it's similar to how someone with OCD might find temporary relief from their anxiety by engaging in compulsive behavior, but in the long run it just makes their anxiety worse. or perhaps i'm just projecting.

Self expression is not necessarily caused by insecurity.

Gender is real but people who obsess about it and about their physical appearance are lame because a completely social identity is weak as fuck.

>lame
Why the ableism?

Not that guy (and these aren't citations) but
>The thing with gender, is that it doesn't exist.
Depends on what is meant by exist, but it is a conceptualized category and not as empirically observable and constant as biological sex, so in that sense one can question its existence.
>(A) People are looking for patterns, (B) and then giving it a label when people deviate from those patterns.
A is undoubtedly true, it's how our brains work, B happens at least in the form of "non-general" (e.g. non-binary)
>(C) That, by itself is no issue, (D) but problems arise when people attach value to it, then expect other people to value their categorization the same way they do.
C Once again, it shouldn't be an issue to a healthy human being as that is how your brain functions, D can be observed in situations where other people desire validation from others for their identity. I mean, if you don't use someone else's pronouns, the entire problem is that they demand your validation (as they lack self confidence) and you do not give it, and they consider this a major violation.
>Most people [...] surprising
See A
>Probably the biggest [...] change what they mean.
See the Frankfurt school.
>Which (((destroys public dialogue))) and just creates more public division.
Inevitably logical discourse becomes difficult when the number of shared presuppositions between groups decreases, resulting in emotions being far more effective (which they can rely upon)

cont.

>For example [...] personality and preferences
That is effectively their definition. Male, as defined by them, is a set of behaviours exhibited by certain people, not physical attributes.
>Other issues which results from the gender revolution but I am too busy to go into detail on.
Camilla Paglia and Jordan Peterson tackle this stuff relatively often, so that's the only direction I can give you.
>People are making their entire identities about gender.
Just as a thought experiment, how often do you hear people that you know to support these ideas to define themselves through something unrelated to these ideas?
>People with no substance are using a label and then using it to get as much attention as possible.
I actually believe in the hypothesis that these people have both a fear of navigating social environments where morality is actually a valid question and a constant shaper of the social atmosphere and a fear of not standing out as they have low self confidence (leading them to desire validation and being uncertain of their own morality which is not predicated on an existing mythological structure, see Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra, and in addition they don't put any effort into becoming strong as individuals, therefore rely on this group-validation system where each member is homogenous by ideology and validates everyone else)
>People are changing genders because they just want to be measured against the standards of the opposite sex.
Probably not the only reason, but I would imagine that it's a contributing factor. These people want to be free of social judgment, and desire total uniform validation, leading to a destruction of their value structures as nothing is above anything else. It's the "post-modernist field problem".

to be honest i think it shouldn't matter how you choose to identify.

if you don't like people who identify as men when they are women or some strange stuff like that then just don't assosciate with them, it's that simple.

let people be who they wanna be

>Is Gender Fluid Real or is a disorder?
Being a disorder would imply it's real, which it isn't, it's just a meme for people who want to be the specialest snowflake.

...

The problem isn't so much that they choose to identify as something as much as that that they demand validation and are trying to change the law so that "live and let live" is no longer an option.

do you have any extreme examples that will piss me off

>if you don't like people who identify as men when they are women or some strange stuff like that then just don't assosciate with them, it's that simple.

then in twenty years you're literally hitler for not wanting to associate with them.

but more importantly, it's at least a little interesting that this disorder is handled differently than any other anxiety or depressive disorder. in most cases it is understood that obsessions like this aren't healthy and the usual course of treatment involves meds and CBT.

the issue is conflated with the gay rights movement, which is why i think the default politically correct answer is "accept them for who they are", but this does not mean other avenues should not be explored just because SJWs will lose face if it turns out that there are better ways of treating the disorder

So when my cat puts its dick into a female cats vagoo, they're both just imagining that this is an act of reproduction?

Social "sciences" was a mistake.

>Frankfurt school.

i'll go out on a limb and say that "anti-cure" perspectives are a necessary evil for the current narrative of critical theory to remain consistent.

I'm genderfluid; that means sometimes I'm an attention-seeking faggot, and sometimes I'm an attention-seeking faggot, except on tuesdays when I'm a nigger.
Seriously, this fuckin movement kills a flock of fucking birds with one stone, reduce white population, break western societal norms to the point when an apple can be seen as an orange, and to make western culture look fucking retarded.

This seems like a relatively constructive thread so I'll ask here.

If part of the fight is that:
>clothes have no gender

Then why is it that when these people want to be a specific gender they dress very stereo typically as if it was the 1950s

Also I find it ironic that many of these people claim social anxiety and such and then fight for making socializing even more of a minefield with all of this gender and pronoun stuff.

Gender and sex are distinct concepts you insufferable retard.

i'd make a joke about schrodingers cat and quantum genders, but it's a little too popsci for my taste

>secondary sex characteristics have nothing to do with sex
Don't OD on the Koolaid

Actually it's really only the English language that separates them.

I just don't see the point in wearing clothes not designed for your body

>trying to argue with an ad hominem using autist
Damn is your nickname sisyphus my dude

Even if this is a bait thread, the fact that so many people in STEM now support so much of this shit makes me dread the future

Isn't gender fluidity just a technical term for tomboy-ism and its counterparts?

one is a style and the other is a mental illness

What makes one normal and the other one an illness?

A tomboy doesn't believe she is actually a boy.

Being a tomboy is where a girl exhibits typically male traits (i.e. short hair, athletic, etc) and being gender fluid is where the person wakes up and they can feel like they have the wrong genitalia depending on their flouride levels

But isn't gender, as its defined in the West, just your social perception of your behavior? Like if you are male in gender but not in sex doesn't that just mean you behave like a guy? In that case it would be just like tomboy-ism

Consciously or unconsciously, you are going to treat the opposite gender differently because you're concerned about whether or not you get to have sex with them in the future.

Nah it isn't, the differentiation of gender and sex has been pushed super hard in the west recently (in both europe and murica)

Which is weird because I believe a lot of these genderfluid people (and maybe trans to an extent) don't really have understanding of the opposite sex and just fall for stereotypes

True, I mean fuck look at old school europe right? You had dudes putting on just as much make up as the women if not more in some social circles. I am not going to go into my beliefs on some of the reasons this change has been pushed so hard, but I do feel that a sense of narcissism but also being lost as individuals have helped it (split) take root. As you said, if a lot just go for stereotypes which means that (imo) they are not developing a sense of individuality, if anything it is destroyed by doing this. I do recommend looking at how much money is in the new huge wave of acceptance where it almost seems hip in the younger circles to be trans etc; reason I say this is because I know a couple people who outed some pharma companies back in the day and what is occurring now is fairly similar. Sorry for being long winded, not enough sleep and I have some emotional ties to trans shit from a freind

There is no biological basis for any identity, so all identities are worthless.

I tried to explain to a genderfluid person who was born a woman but identifies as a guy some days how guys actually act and how they socialize and she was blown away and distraught since she wasn't acting at all like how I described

hey man, who would have guessed that if you are trying to be something you are probably not even close to being what you want to be do u feel me BRO

Ive gotta hear more of this. Full story please

Don't really have time to greentext it all but I had to explain how women and men socialize very different such as we're a lot more direct with our approach and we don't just talk about girls all the time. I had to explain what banter was and how it may seem like we all hate each other when we're just having a bit of fun. I Also had to explain that by being on the shorter side you'd might have a bit more banter coming your way to her. I explained as well that when you're with the guys you say a lot of things you would get criticized for around women or in a professional environment.

She was blown away too because I had to explain how men dress. She assumed we just talked about women, we're a bit more vulgar and wear button up shirts and pants

Here's the thing. I am cuckoldingly open to calling the people that don't fit the binary with their respective pronouns if they provide me with a scientific paper that implies gender fluidity as something that is preferable to the traditional gender roles we've known for the past 250000 years.
Does raising a kid gender neutral have any positive effects on the kid's mental development other than it getting to forcibly experience both genders at intervals depending on how the parents treat it?

Does identifying as non-binary have any positive effects on the psychological way of understanding people? Will it give any better concrete statistical results than the binary system we currently have?

Is reality real?

first define the term "gender" please. I honestly still am unsure what people mean by this.

DAE realize is just femiNAZI bullshit?
femiNAZIs and SJWs are trying to emasculate men by coming with this gender not-gender nonsense. i hate it. IF YOU HAVE A PENIS YOUR A MAN AND IF YOU HAVE A VAGINA YOUR A WOMAN. it's all determined by CHROMOSOMES, that's it. and i know some low IQ retard is gonna come at me with "b-but some people have XXY!" NO, those people are just MUTATIONS. and, no i don't care if some libTARD replies to with saying how there so "TRIGGURD" that i don't believe in attack helicopter gender. libTARDism is a mental disorder anyways, just like femiNAZISM

OP of this reply. forgot to post it with this image

My experience comes entirely from the /r9k/ threads about tran/traps/feminine boys.
No real experience.

It's a bunch of tumblr bullshit. You're either biologically male or female. This is beyond dispute. I am ignoring abnormal chromosomal cases and verified morphological hermaphrodites, because those are exceptionally rare and clearly abnormalities.

That being said, to assume that a male cannot have inclinations and desires that might be considered feminine (or vice-versa) is the height of hubris. But putting on a dress, tucking the sack or even getting your dick turned inside-out does not make a male a female.

I don't feel hatred for people who think that way- it is clearly a mental disorder. But I feel like current treatments involving surgery, castration, reconstruction, are alarmingly expensive and likely do more harm than good to the patient. We have very few long term studies about any of these treatments and it is actually impossible to say that they are what is best for the patient- hormone therapy likewiese is known for inducing breast cancer in MtF patients, this is not surprising in the slightest given what we know about estrogen. Surely the best solution is counseling them that it is okay to live as a different gender without trying to change themselves appearance-wise? Just my thoughts.

well, biologically of course that is true, but I feel like if someone wants to live as a different gender there's no problem with that- it's not my life. They can put on a dress if they want. Who cares?

I personally think that there are only two genders and that anyone who is not in one of those is mentally deficient. I also think that there are two heights and anyone who deviates from those is physically deficient.

I wouldn't care if we weren't at the point where the military has and does spend money to indulge the whims of people who are clearly mentally ill. And yes, thinking you are a thing you are not is a mental illness. But we are so far beyond the pale that even SUGGESTING that gender dysphoria is bullshit is enough to lose credibility in the argument.

That's the only reason I give a fuck. If this were a private issue, with people wasting their own damn money on this shit, I wouldn't really care.

Idk why any of this shit is considered new. I’ve known about people changing gender since I was a kid. The only thing that took me back was gender fluid/ non-binary stuff. Cause that stuff sounded more like me. But I don’t do the “them” pronouns stuff. Too much of a hassle. I basically just say “I’m what ever you want me to be baby” cause I really couldn’t care less.

underage b&

Oh! Please excuse me. I meant “baby” in the way of at lease above the age of 18. My apologies!

“I’m what ever you want me to be, baby.”

Baby: “Mama”

“DONT MISGENDER ME!!!”

it's just trendy kids attention whoring and trying to latch on to the progressive transgender movement, the same way roasties used to be all about having gay bffs back when being gay was still at least slightly controversial. To the roastie, identity is a costume you wear, and trends are everything.