What are Veeky Forums's thoughts on veganism?

Calm down.

I'm asking these questions here on Veeky Forums because I expect someone with more knowledge than me on the subject to find the relevant studies on the subject so I won't have to waste time trying to find some studies here and there and still miss a huge chunk of the literature.

Basically I'm hoping to save time since I've considered something like perhaps a vegetarian diet for a while, but I only listen to facts. If the benefits both environmentally and health wise aren't significant compared to a balanced diet which I'm currently on, or a meat restricted diet of some sort, then I have no reason to expend effort trying to conform to such a diet.

Lol, morals.

You probably could be okay on a meat restricted diet. If you were really interested in reducing ur footpront youd look into non meat products that were potentially damaging too.

So you dont care about the moral part?

you've clearly found your passion, user

>this logic

why are you even on Veeky Forums brainlet?
did some vegetables destabilise your image of masculinity?

Yeah veganism won't solve world hunger, and neither will meat diet
but it can prevent suffering of billions of animals who don't want to die and live under terrible conditions

Veganism isn't maintainable. The biggest flaw in it is you won't experience the problems with it till you're 60 then you're hyper fucked.

There is no evidence at all whatsoever that vegans live longer than meat eaters.

There is also no ethical reason to do it either seeing as how 1000x the amount of animals are killed to bring you clean drinking water than slaughtering one cow to feed 100 people. It is pure moronic stupidity brought on by people's desire to feel part of something

Exactly

>1000x the amount of animals are killed to bring you clean drinking water

care to expand? i wasn't aware this was an issue in the west

You're against factory farms then not meat eating

I am Vegan, for 3 reasons, none of them are about cruelty

1. Environment. 10% of wilderness has vanished since 1992, and this will continue to decline. A lot of that is for animal agriculture. The greenhouse emissions of Veganism are also far lower, which is preferable, and the amount of hypoxic dead zones in the ocean is lower if everyone follows a vegan diet. Animal agriculture has also created a massive collapse in genetic diversity amongst species because we've replaced all the habitats with fields for cattle.

2. Overfishing. I can't eat fish. We are collapsing the oceans by fishing down the food web, taking the tops of the trophic chain away then continuing to overfish the stuff that is left for oil and fish farm food. Deep sea fishing is becoming a thing due to demand which targets very slow breeding deep sea fish that cannot sustain population when faced with our technologies.

3. Antibiotic resistance. This is primarily driven by animal farming on an industrial scale and is something that could quickly spiral out of control. This alone is enough of a reason to stop eating factory farmed meat at the very least. Fish farms have the same issue

I am aware there are healthier diets but I'd rather take a couple of supplements than support the damage done by this industry.

Reminder that studies show there's no significant difference between caged chickens and free roaming ones. In fact, caged ones are more healthy.
dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2504766/Free-range-ISNT-better-factory-farmed-Why-caged-chickens-stressed-lives-outdoor-counterparts.html

If you truly care about the welfare of chickens, LOCK 'EM UP!

Whats the problem with it if you can replicate all the nutrients you can from a meat diet.

Its impossible to be perfectly morally consistent or aware but you can minimise harm done and think about the issues you know about. Atleast be mindful. No not eating meat isnt gonna stop animal deaths right now but it means your not advocating it and getting more people to do it creates long term change.

Its better to make little steps than none at all.

And for that clean water example i know nothing about but i still think we have to ensure society and people are healthy. Sometimes animals do come second thats true but doesnt mean there cant be a minimisation of harm.

1. forests are growing or stable in the developed world, where almost all food products are made
earth-policy.org/indicators/C56/forests_2012

2. what about farmed fish and shellfish?

3. certainly is an issue, but the future of anti-bacterial medicine is in viral treatments, not antibiotics.

Good point. No eating meat (even humans) isnt inherently wrong for me

*clicking applause*

Grow up. Life is killing. Even trees murder their own offspring by denying them sunlight. Vegans live in fairyland

1. This doesn't change the impact of greenhouse gas emissions, though, and the Amazon is an irreplaceable jewel so I don't want to risk funding the damages being done. I'm pretty sure that many of the grains grown there are exported to other countries for cattle feed anyway

2. Farmed fish are almost always Salmon, Tuna etc, which are high trophic level fish and require fish feed, ie, they require the continued fishing of already exploited fisheries. These farms also contribute to dead zones because the fish shit so much into the narrow bands of water. I would consider eating farmed mussels and shellfish IF it could be demonstrated that these farms are not contributing to species invasions (another major issue fish farming causes) and don't suffer disease (diseased shellfish is a disgusting thing to consider eating). I would consider eating farmed, low trophic level fish that are being fed without exploiting the oceans (ie through the fishing of ecosystem essential krill in the Southern Ocean). I would also eat farmed freshwater fish provided they could prove environmental friendliness or fish hand caught by an angler (not 'line caught' as this can mean a longline fishing method). As it stands it is easier to just avoid fish altogether.

3. When we have effective treatments against AB resistant bacteria I can reconsider this position, but even then, there are potential outbreaks of other diseases from the horrific factory farming conditions (bird flus, prion diseases etc)

Why cant we minimise it. We do it in human society dont we?

If you could would you specifically check into where you got your food? Chickenfag up there makes a point. Certain types of farm or whatever can have the label of sustainability but it may depend on the specific farm sometimes.

We're not demigods. We're animals.

So you wouldnt object to somw guy dropping through your window and slaughtering you coz "life is killing"? Maybe youre a demigod to him.

Yes, and if I was a bit richer I would probably try to find local, sustainable meat to eat. I'd need to think about the issue more though, as there are probably a lot of things I haven't considered, and my position here isn't permanent, I just think that Veganism for me, ethically, feels like a risk management thing (as I know for a fact that the things I have mentioned are major issues, and avoiding meat altogether gives the best chance of not contributing to them)

You and your strawman have a good life.

All im saying is its not necessarily that hard and your life is killing argument is the wrong one to defend yourself with because you dont make a distinction with the fact that people dont kill eachother.

Wheres the line? Why not become oneof those people that live on a jar of waste per year and grow all your own veg in a bin?

It's an obvious distinction. Another one is humanitarian ways of killing animals.

Humane I mean.

Why is it obvious?

The point is why should living things die unnecessarily.

Men eat meat
Men need this food efficiently, and thus automated slaughterhouses exist
No amount of debating will ever change this

I doubt you can predict the future. Expectations are continually superseded.

If men dont have to eat meat to survive though, are slaughterhouses and its suffering necessary?

Because they taste good, and that makes it necessary. Also, we give them excellent lives with food and shelter, then even gift them a dignified death.

It's way more than we get, and you know it.

There's a disturbing lack of citations so far...

Lool way more than we get?

And i wouldnt say it gives them excellent lives.

The point is living things that suffer should be able to live and not be killed. You would agree with that in terms of yourself.
Plus dignified in your opinion. Does the animal understand it as dignified?

Tasting good isnt a good argument because someone could argue that about humans.

We are hunter gatherer animals, men are biologically designed to hunt down meat and slam it down for protein
If humanity continues to lose masculinity then perhaps something will change, but I doubt it'd look anything like the fantasy utopia you have in mind

They understand they never get torn to pieces by wolves. But the point is they don't understand much to begin with, so they're easy to satisfy. And they will they regardless one way or another unless I've missed something and cattle, sheep, etc are actual immortal crystalline beings beyond our comprehension.

Tasting good is an excellent argument. Humans are more intelligent and conscious than every animal on the planet, and even if they weren't and tasted good, we now know that we aren't nutritious at all, so the argument is still moot.

Sweating yet?

How the hell did "die" autocorrect to they? Fucking hell.

You have enzymes to digest protein for a reason user.

Theres no food like meat. It just tastes so good, and has so much nutrients. Nothing ever compares to it.

Although i do understand we probably should eat less meat for energy reasons.

Then why arent you a hunter gatherer?

Biological design isnt a valid notion i think. Its just an easy way of describing biology when in reality there is a degeneracy in the types of niches an organisms can live in. Theres no specific design and unexpected organism-environment couplings probably occur often.

And an is doesnt necessarily mean an ought. Historical reference poonts are arbitrary especially as humans arent a historically discrete lineage and in our past and even now weve lived on many different diets.The things humans do in the past doesnt justify behaviour now. We did bad things in the past.

Again why eat meat if unnecessary.

It's not unnecessary though. It tastes good.

>on Veeky Forums
>thinks meat is the ultimate source of protein
>probably doesn't even know what protein is

i kekd

user, even goddamn broccoli contains more protein/g then most of meat

No they dont understand. And if you had the animals interests in heart why not just provide them the stress free lifestyle wihout death. And as is well known and chicken fag said. Their lives arent ideal. Lots of bad shit happens.

Understanding and intelligence isnt an argument. Just shows malevolent manipulation. We look after dumb children and disabled people. Would you advocate a higher being too? Intelligence doesnt necessarily link to volition agency suffering etc.

Lol we not nutritious? Apes are delicacies in some countries. We can farm humans to be nutritious too. Tbh you havent supported your view on our nutritiousness.

yeah broccoli contains 1/10 more protein than meat per gram

Instead of pussyfooting just say you dont care about animals. Your personal preference rather than being illogical. You accused me of strawman somehow earlier lol

>provide them stress free lifestyles without death
Talk about unnecessary! And a waste! I want to wat their flesh, silly. They will die. We can make it painless. Everyone wins. Intelligence also links directly to agency, suffering, etc, so yeah you can just rationalize that very important consideration away.

No it doesnt logically at all lol. We demonstrate that in our own societies.

Then why dont we kill humans when its necessary?

We're not nutritious according to science. Deal with it.
theverge.com/2017/4/6/15189678/prehistoric-cannibalism-humans-calories-nutrition-neanderthal-behavior

Now you're just being silly. You know I'm right. Also, assisted suicide is a thing, and I'm for it.

Nah humans still love eating meat, including all the ones with higher testosterone than you that have a higher chance of reproducing anyways

>Then why aren't you a hunter gatherer

I kill animals and eat them user, although not all of my meals are obtained this way, real life men still exist, you should try it, you may like it

By the logic of this article we are more nutritious than lamb or chicken. You clearly havent read it.

Assisted suicide is consensual and still complicated.

Lol unlesss you give me an argument saying im silly wont do anything. Jist makes you look stupid.

Humans can love things that are wrong user. And who cares about testosterone or masculinity. I might be a faggot or a woman. Not an argument.

You killing animals has nothing to do woth hunter gatherers. And yes i might like it but doesnt make it morally clean or right.

There's nothing wrong with people having different genes, I brought that up because people that prefer meat will keep reproducing, and so a vegan future for humanity doesn't seem likely at the moment

Consent also implies intelligence. How will you solve this cognitive dissonance, user? Baka.

I want to respect their choice but the moment they start pushing towards outlawing meat-eating, which they certainly will, then it'll basically become the next religious war. I already know it's gonna happen that's why I hate and want them to fuck off, let me slaughter animals and eat meat in peace you faggots.

This is why I hoped morals/ethics would be ignored. You're just spouting worthless opinions at each other, wasting time.

Does it? A stupid animal cant let you do something consensually? A rat wont let you know when it doesnt like something?

As if you come this board to be productive

So eating meat or being vegan is a genetic thing? Hmm fighees how all vegans come feom vegan families with vegan parents.

I like to think of it as minimum effort productivity.

But do you see nothing bad about meat eating at all?

It hurts the feelings of those who personally are offended by it?

The greatest arrogance of vegans is assuming that animals suffer simply by virtue of being food.

Would vegans go back to eating meat if farm animals were engineered to not feel any suffering?

Ha so you dont see anything bad about hurting an animal okay :p

I wasn't aware we were torturing animals before we killed them.

No.

youtube.com/watch?v=-OQ90cKZoM4

I think they assume they suffer by virtue of being animals like us.
Good question. Maybe. Eating meat isnt inherently wrong. Maybe its more complicated though. Interesting is where is the fine line where something is deserving of moral consideration. If we build an a.i. or even a simulation that is close enough to humans does that deserve it? How do you define a living thing. If this didnt feel pain would it still deserve our consideration? Is pain all that is deserving of consideration? Intuitively no because we wd try to protect those that dont feel pain i think if they were human. But would we if they were made and not born? Hard.

Ill include kill in that. And i dont think animal farming or hunting is painless anyway.
Lol looks relatively humane. Not the point though. And im not offended if you thought i would be. Im just reasoning.

Veganism is actually a capitalist conspiracy. Let me explain why. My girlfriend is a vegan and she's a normie so she browses facebook constantly and sometimes I'll just lay on her tits and see what she's seeing. The first time I did this I was fucking shocked because every 5 posts on her feed are either PETA propaganda showing animals getting slaughtered or capitalist propaganda trying to sell her food that is supposedly good for the environment and animals. (And for some reason, the capitalist propaganda always comes right after PETA's propaganda. So we know that facebook has some really fucking advanced emotional manipulation AI.)

After seeing this a couple of times I confronted her about her veganism and she admitted that she really wishes to eat meat because it tastes so good. And she also hates veganism because stuff like vegan cheese costs 10 times what normal cheese costs and she isn't rich at all.

That settled it for me. Veganism is a capitalist meme. Think about it. The food market is stale. The best and most efficient methods for producing food have been discovered long ago and are used by the biggest companies. So how does a new player actually compete in the market? By telling their customers that if they eat traditional food they are literally HITLER. Then, to pay for all this extra marketing (funding PETA) they raise the prices of their bullshit food. AND IT WORKS. I honestly consider my girlfriend to be a victim. This is psychological manipulation. This is emotional manipulation. Veganism and vegan propaganda should be outright illegal. PETA should be banned from all social media, and vegan food companies should be punished for this kind of punitive marketing.

So my take is this. If you are a vegan, either you've been brainwashed by a corporation looking to make a quick buck, or you are one of them and you are a SICK FUCK.

Tbh though i know that the animals shouldnt really be killed in the presence of other animals. Definitely the case in animal testing. Think types of farms might aim for that too depending on context.

I agree it is a capitalist meme but producing anything is and im not sure that the products were produced before the propaganda. Makes no economic sense. Im sure some vegans are vegans from thinking rather than emotional manipulation though.

I don't think death is particularly bad (or good), especially when it comes to animals whose whole purpose and existence is to feed us, so I don't feel anything when I see them getting killed without suffering. Didn't post that to offend you, it just looks extremely normal to me maybe it does to you.

>Im sure some vegans are vegans from thinking
No, I consider this to be impossible. Vegan food tastes like fucking shit so there has to be a deep rationalization behind it. It is either "I make big fucking money from vegan corporations funding me to keep blogging about vegan health bullshit" or "HITLER ATE MEAT. I AM NOT HITLER. PLEASE FORGIVE ME LITTLE COWS I DID NOT MEAN TO EAT YOU AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

Hate the movement but they're right about it being healthy. Why eat 10 different meat replacements instead of just a little meat? And there's a lot of misinformation/exaggeration, highly biased. Yeah vegetables are good for you, everyone and their mother knows this.

Nah doesnt offend at all. I dont get mushy over animals dieing. Just feels logical to me. People dont cry about rekt videos do they. It looks painless.

Wasnt hitler vegetatian?

No more healthy than a balanced diet.

>Wasnt hitler vegetatian?
Who cares. I am obviously exaggerating the propaganda. But if you want to see the real deal just go to PETA's facebook. They post literal gore there and for some reason ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) facebook allows it. Some of it is so fucked up that if I were to turn it into a .webm and post it here, I'd get banned.

the zucc is too busy getting the succ to moderate

Post or didnt happen.

God bless capitalism.

What is this post even?

>By telling their customers that if they eat traditional food they are literally HITLER

So plants are not traditional food?

You have free access to facebook motherfucker.

By traditional food I mean food that is just food. It is not marketed with some bullshit moral message about saving the environment and helping animals.

Plants are traditional food, but here it gets interesting. There are two types of plants. There are mass produced plants (the once I'd say are traditional) and then there are hipster bullshit plants grown by "local farmers" that cost 10 times what the traditional plants cost. Vegan propaganda will make you buy the latter.

Also, I remembered something that adds to the Hitler thing. PETA published a video on facebook about how one of the methods of killing [some little animal, don't remember which one] was by putting them inside a gas chamber. And they were undercover interviewing the farmer and they asked them to show them. Then the farmer grabbed 5 of the little animals and put them in the gas chamber to fucking die. Then the farmer took them out and checked to see if they have died. The guy said "Oh, look. This one is still alive. This sometimes happens. In this case, you just break its neck to end it quick." and then, on camera, the guy breaks the fucking neck of the little animal.

JESUUUUUUUUS
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Wasn't m00t working on Facebook? Why does he allow this filth?

a shit diet that only keeps us from evolving our intelligence and brains
had we stayed with eating plants we would still be retarded monkeys throwing poop at each other
fats and amino acids in meat are what helped us evolve intelligence
all vegans should be eradicated for preventing the humankind from evolving

are you aware of how crooked PETA is?
they're like next-level evil

That has nothing to do with veganism though. That's just organic food and they sell organic animal products too.

Well, I've never been too aware of social movements but I can say that I'm not comfortable calling people evil. I'd say PETA is sick but I don't know if evil. At the end of the day, we are all capitalist. And we know money talks. It is clear that PETA is simply the propaganda arm of these food companies, and it is PETA's job to produce this propaganda. It is what puts food on their table. It is what feeds their families. They have to do what they have to do. But I'd say they are sick. But not evil. That is why I think we should target the corporations, not PETA. Once there are no more vegan corporations funneling money into PETA, it will disappear so fast you won't even notice it. That is how capitalism works, after all.

"Organic" "animal" products are simply a gateway to veganism. They are a gateway into making you feel guilty about what you eat. It is simply more propaganda and more manipulation.

Clearly, these companies noticed that most people are not willing to immediately buy 50$ vegan cheese slices so they added the gateway. Why not buy 30$ "organic" "grass-fed" "non-GMO" "non-antibiotic" cheese instead? That's right, EAT. EAT AND FEEL GUILTY, YOU'LL BE MOVING TO THE 50$ CHEESE IN NO TIME.

I will cast the first paper then.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26853923/
>CONCLUSIONS: This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (-25%) and incidence from total cancer (-8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (-15%) of incidence from total cancer.

The health part is now settled. If you want to be healthier, become a vegetarian.

I was compared to hitler once for gassing rats in a lab.

PETA isn't tied to food companies and shit they're fueled by pure ideology (like ISIS)
Maybe 'evil' is a harsh word but who gives a fuck this is (pseudo)anonymous
there's a Penn and Teller episode on PETA