Since Western society is lost to nihilism and degeneracy I feel like to only thing that can save us is convert to Islam

unironically posting this. unironically being an autistic aesthetician. we're done. we're over.

oh, and also check out the perennial philosophy cucks. their stuff is far from orthodox islam, but it might be a nice intro from a western perspective

frithjof schuon is a start

>Protestant kids can't do this:
plenty of proddies can recite scripture

Islam is the ultimate slave mentality

I can only imagine Westerners who unironically wish to convert to Islam as massive weenies

how else can they not see the massive irony in this? and the clear bullshit being peddled by these Imams
read the Bhagavad Gita

seconded

it's appealing not to have to think or worry, and I even think there's truth and value in the message of submission (especially in our culture of self-obsession and hubris), but it's important to realize that releasing cares and shifting them are two different things

t. agnostifag who was drawn by islam for a bit before accidentally redpilling myself

>t. agnostifag who was drawn by islam for a bit before accidentally redpilling myself

Dear god, what is happening to our youth?

I just find it hard to completely set aside everything I know and believe to submit to their god.
compare this to Brahmanism or Buddhism especially, it is so dry and mind numbing in comparison. even worse since Islam functions as a cult.

Except that's an extremely patrician stand to take, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I'm not talking about simplicity per se, but protestants always strike me as guilt ridden in some way, and painfully self conscious. Catholicism is very agreeable on a societal level (I've never been to a Catholic country that didn't have a markedly higher quality of life, despite the material considerations protestant countries obsess over), and aesthetic as hell, but their theology ranges from insightful to pure masturbation.

With the Quran, every verse is the words of God, full of depth, but without needless pretension. From a purely pragmatic standpoint I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person (although I've only ever known upper class Muslims). Catholicism as well seems to produce very good results for society, while burger protestantism mostly seems to produce neurosis.

The thing I found interesting about their submission theology is that it doesn't ask you to believe in Allah, only to submit to his doctrine (which is mainly a set of instructions on how to be a decent and upstanding human being/member of society), and wait for the belief to come.

For someone who's been told for years by all kinds of preachers to "let Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you for being a worthless degenerate", this is extremely refreshing.

Quran recitals are the equivalent of reciting communist slogans. Say no to brainwashing kids.

>"let Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you for being a worthless degenerate"

You need to get better preachers cause that's not how the Gospel should be interpreted.

Holy shit

Yes it is. Go back to /pol/.

there is a massive amount of pro-Islam propaganda out there along with anti-Christian rhetoric.

christianity is decidedly "uncool" and not only that is treated with hostility and contempt in much of the West.
I don't think people should just be Christian because they were born into it, but this is a definite trend which is creating a lot of aimless atheists, or slacktheists.

now Islam is shown in the media as being strong, proud, traditional, and most of all vibrant especially compared to the stereotype of the deprecated old Christian. this media presentation combined with very active propaganda efforts by Muslims both online and in real life; for example my university has a permanent "Islam awareness" booth set up in the centre of the main concourse where they evangelize every day. beyond that there is an entire Islam appreciation week and load of other sketchy shit.

now when you have these weak willed aimless people being presented this cultivated image of Islam it is naturally attractive. this is the danger as once you're in you can't leave easily.

what is hidden under all of this however is the rotting foundations of the entire faith, dispute the "vibrant" look about it, Islam is collapsing, the sects are fragmenting and there is massive. very bloody infighting as there is zero agreement anymore on who is a "true Muslim"
Islam is breaking down, and since its entire existence relies on the entity of the "Islamic state" (not ISIS but the general idea of an Islamic nation) but even these nations are in complete turmoil.
the rise of Islamism is the internal recognition of this complete breakdown in the faith and an attempt to rectify it, by force.

I can only see Islam spiralling more and more out of control in the future, as of today they are a hostile cancerous entity in every single nation on earth where they exist as a minority, and in their majority states too.

only through a possible return to strong peaceful authoritarian rule willing to mandate what is and is not Islam; like a new Sultanate, could this spiral be stopped.

Islam right now is like Catholicism with the entire church hierarchy dismantled.

Was this guy wrong in abolishing the Caliphate?

May I suggest something? You clearly are fond of "western society", or whatever it once was. Instead of adopting a completely foreign worldview, why not think and try to create something, from within, to overcome the current western state of affairs. Isn't it ultimately irresponsible escapism to turn your back and hope someone from outside can save you?

I personally think he was
Ataturk was awful for both Turkey and Islam.

but Turkey hat lost a lot of legitimacy as "caliphate" anyway
me saying "Islam" is a bit inaccurate
compare Sunni Islam to the far more stable Shia who do have a strong orderly state and clear hierarchy in place.

Wow, you're a complete mess.

The bible is also regarded as the word of God. The stuff you said about there being no Catholic countries without a "higher quality of life" (than where?) and having met no Muslims who weren't "thoroughly decent " is just anecdotal bullshit and I wonder why you posted it.

He did it because he could. Caliph didn't have any influence anyway.

Save us from what? You are even more pathetic than people who are theists because they were born into it. You are the imbicile who chooses to believe in theism because he can't live life without being lead.

Do you legitimately think that the truth of a religion id be based on whether you enjoy spending time in that country or with its members?

Going by that warped logic Mormonism would have a high stake in the truth department

>but protestants always strike me as guilt ridden in some way, and painfully self conscious

Orthodoxy is effectively guilt the religion (not that that should have a bearing on whether it is true or not)

No thanks.

>The bible is also regarded as the word of God.
Not at all in the same way as the Quran. The Gospels are all written by men. The Quran is literally considered to be the word of God handed down by the angel Gabriel to Muhammad.

>The stuff you said about there being no Catholic countries without a "higher quality of life" (than where?)
Than protestant countries. I've lived in America, Canada, France, and South America and from this I've observed the general cultural attitude towards life benefits hugely from having a strong Catholic presence. More acceptance of leisure as a legitimate activity, without all the dread, guilt, and moral judgement of protestant culture.

>and having met no Muslims who weren't "thoroughly decent " is just anecdotal bullshit and I wonder why you posted it.

Because I've befriended a decent amount of Muslims from all over, and moreover, why would I ignore my own personal experience when making decisions in my life? Would you feel better if I posted a mathematical looking graph with a sample size smaller than the Muslims I've met? That's a very protestant way of thinking, I bet you're an Amerifat too.

Fucking brainlets

different person, but if your goal is to overcome Western nihilism and degeneracy, there is no alternative to religious revival and enforcement of religious social norms by a strong state, imo. some form of social control with transcendent justification is needed. the vast majority of people are so stupid that they need to be guided with religious morals and a firm hand. if they're allowed to entertain liberal ideas they will self-destruct.

>without all the dread, guilt, and moral judgement of protestant culture.
What do you mean by this? Catholicism states that humans are inherently sinful, whereas salvation is guaranteed in Protestantism simply by believing in Christ.

You're fucking nuts.

>Do you legitimately think that the truth of a religion id be based on whether you enjoy spending time in that country or with its members?

No, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint a good way to gauge a religion is by observing its effects on society.

Unless you're one of those "spiritual but not religious" pseudo-materialist douchbags

I think this won't tell you the whole story. For instance, the issues in Islamic society don't prove that Islam is bad. The reality is that the Arabs are by and large a backwards, genetically unintelligent group who won't create much in the way of civilization, regardless of their faith, the Africans even more so.

>"there is a catholic/protestant/muslim cultural attitude"
i.e.,
>"there is an actually existing group of hiveminds and mine is the best"
Never, ever post again.

>Because I've befriended a decent amount of Muslims from all over, and moreover, why would I ignore my own personal experience when making decisions in my life? Would you feel better if I posted a mathematical looking graph with a sample size smaller than the Muslims I've met? That's a very protestant way of thinking, I bet you're an Amerifat too.

HAHA right? STEMfags BTFO.

Exactly. Sin ceases to become a moral struggle when it's excepted as a reality, and people in Catholic countries tend to be more accepting of their own human faults and limitations.

Protestants always seem to be more worried about working hard and doing the right thing, about understanding rather than obeying, and about believing without any recourse for the doubter.

The obsession with sin and transgression also lends itself to greater eroticism. Without clear moral lines to transgress, sinning becomes a bland object of despair, and even the most degenerate sexual experiences become nothing but mechanical masturbation.

Also the emphasis on ritual in Catholicism and Submission in Islam help negotiate the problem of faith, so you can have atheist or agnostic Muslims and Catholics. This doesn't seem to work so well with Protestants.

>cultures don't exist and the metaphysical foundations of society don't have any effect on it, I'm so fucking smart lmao

I'm not even from a Catholic country, I'm just posting the conclusions I've made from years of observations.
But from the way you talk, you probably speak one language and I doubt you've ever left your hometown.

This is very true, and it's hard to separate religion from the general culture. That being said, there are many clear differences between the Catholic and Protestant conceptions of life, which can't be ignored.

There's a difference between actual science and being so stupid that you can't form your own opinion but trust anything presented to you in the form of a pie chart. A couple hundred personal anecdotes are a much richer source of information that a couple hundred people filling in a questionnaire, and if you can't understand that then I seriously doubt your IQ is in the triple digits.

>Ataturk was awful for both Turkey and Islam.

There was no Turkey before Ataturk since Ataturk create Turkey, how can he be awful for Turkey? Without him the Sevr agreement wouldn't be canceled and there would be a very small ottoman state with no friends on borders. Which would be invaded by USSR like armenia did, instantly.

Are we supposed to believe that you have "a couple hundred personal anecdotes"?
If your idea of science is "a couple hundred people filling out questionnaires" you are simply wrong.

Everyone I've ever met has been of one sort of religious bend or another, so I don't see why that's such a shocking idea.

Do you not understand the difference between actual science and scientism? It's impossible to even apply scientific techniques to the social sciences, so your complaining about anecdotes is pretty retarded, because that's really all anyone has to go off of.

>Western society is lost to nihilism and degeneracy
Western society isn't, you just are.

shut up nigger

>I'm not even from a Catholic country, I'm just posting the conclusions I've made from years of observations.

They're obviously biased observations since you admit you've only interacted with upper class folk. You're just seeing things you wish to see.

If I was a nigger I wouldn't think that you're a retarded degenerate. I'd be one myself.

Upper class Muslims you tard, and even then they weren't all upper class, just most of them.

I've known all socio-economic classes of catholics, protestants, and atheists, and in my experience catholic countries (that is, countries where Catholicism is the dominate religion and influences the public sphere) tend to be much nicer places to live than Protestant ones, regardless of material concerns.

NASA would not exist anymore if the western societies had fallen to nihilism.

Degeneracy? Yes i can completely get behind that.

But not nihilism.

I am on the verge of praying to God himself to curse every single poster in this thread.

Holy Mother Mary, this thread has me worked up. I am on the verge of spitting fire.

If you liked the book, you'll love the sequel brother.

I think Muhammad was listening to some sort of demon or wayward fairy spirit. Islam is not of God, it was inspired by demonic forces, and all "good" Muslims these days are good in spite of the strongest elements of their religion.

You're just a schizo making shit up.

not that guy, just felt I'd point out that personal anecdotes tend to be less reliable simply because your own circumstances tend to give a skew to the data, which is why good surveys are done with very careful sampling if they are to be trusted. You admitted (assuming you're the same guy) that the muslims you met were high class, which is a huge misrepresentation of reality. Higher class people tend to have more education, bigger social circles and more time to contemplate life. You can't compare high class muslims with low class protestants and expect to get any sort of truth.

For a guy who claimed to have traveled and lived all over the world and interacted with many people, he sounds like a fucking teenager.

join ISIS

>All these buttblasted protestants

So how could someone possibly do an unbiased survey to measure all the subtle ways religion effects both someone's personal subjective experience and conception of reality, as well as the fabric of society at large?

The best option is therefore personal experimentation with different religions, or failing that, careful psychoanalytic observation of a handful of people

You said
>I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person

then
>Everyone I've ever met has been of one sort of religious bend or another,

Are you saying that you have a thorough understanding of the character of every single person you've met?

Even if you did, it doesn't matter, because that would simply be your subjective analysis of your own environment. It may be helpful to you to navigate your own world but not reliable to for anyone else.

Not at all, but every Muslim I've ever had the opportunity to get to know on an intimate level has struck me as fairly upstanding. Why would I not draw some conclusions from that? Especially when many of the virtues I admire in them are those same ones espoused in the Quran?

>Even if you did, it doesn't matter, because that would simply be your subjective analysis of your own environment. It may be helpful to you to navigate your own world but not reliable to for anyone else.
And why should it be? I'm a thoroughly selfish person, and only concern myself with my own life. There's no objective way to quantify what's being discussed anyways (the effects of religion of someone's character), so anecdotal evidence is all that's available. It seems silly to criticize something for being anecdotal when that sort of information can't exist in any other form.

Bad thread, Islam is a primitive and violent religion. Christianity is vastly extended by theology because we aren't all brainlets satisfied by "I am God" written on a scroll.

wow you're so edgy
now get back to

>God had his son which was actually him so he let himself be crucified then doubted his existence before he died, but begged himself to forgive the people crucifying him, and also there's the Holy Spirit which makes three Gods wrapped into one, which is why when you eat bread its actually the body of Christ and when you drink wine its really his blood.

Not Veeky Forums.

Sage and report

>God sent a bunch of prophets but their message got corrupted so hundreds of years later he sends a messiah to clear things up but his message gets corrupted too so hundreds of years later he sends another prophet who is also the last prophet ever and is 100% true so never question anything. Also he was a guy who lived in a trading town in a bumfuck nowhere desert for some reason. Also his successors need to conquer everyone else and make a huge empire and tax all the non-believers so they become super rich. Also the religion split over who was the correct successor, good job making things clear God. Also you need to follow the sunnah but we don't know which hadith are reliable so you're basically fucked.

>Man is fallible so God has to step in every once in a while and set them on the right track

What a crazy concept

Where the fuck do you meat your Muslims? Go go a place in a western city with a Muslim majority and stay there for a week, talking to people, you'll change

Why do you hate homos and Hindus so much?

>le terrorist religion

>islam will save western society
It's a shit-tier religion that goes against everything that makes western civilisation so great- freedom of thought, culture, expression- just ask badawi ffs Religion should only belong in art. In the modern world it only serves to stagnate progress- look at any middle eastern country. Unlike Christianity, Islam has yet to mature into moderation with obvious effects. Yes I have met many muslims who are genuinely good people- hell some of them are even good friends of mine- but they are moderate individuals who live in wilful ignorance of the fact that they constantly violate most of their holy "guidelines". Also read the Quran and if you have any measure of critical thinking or at the very least- decency, then it should tell you all you need to know.

Freedom of thought, culture, and expression are the problem. These freedoms have only caused a convergence to a degenerate consensus where we aren't actually allowed to freely express ourselves anyway. It is preferable to have freedom of expression controlled by a somewhat intellectual form of religion, that will allow the intellectual elite to flourish while shepherding the masses. The masses, in general, should not have freedom of thought, expression, and culture.

>western society is lost
>western society was the problem

go back to /pol/ famb

In the past, Western society had much more restrictive social norms due to a religious consensus. This would be an improvement.

OP do you like MOABs?

I think you are wrong but if you want to learn about Islam from a Western perspective I suggest you look up traditionalist philosopher and Islamic scholar Tim Winter.

>it's old and therefore worthless
This attitude is what is wrong with our contemporary society.

Our post-enlightenment civilization is built on a primitive belief in science and progress towards universality.

Why would I need more westernization of Islam?

Unbelieveable.

It's Islam it's not the only non western religion, you have alternatives.

>First Prayer to the Maker

Cause of being, Viracocha,
God always present,
Judge that in all is,
God who governs and provides,
What he believes by saying:
'' Be it man, be a woman, ''
Live free and in peace
The being that you put
And you created.
Where are you? Outside,
Or inside, in the cloud
Or in the shade?
Listen to me, answer me.
Make her live many days,
Up to the age when
Gray.
Then lift me up
Take me in your arms
And if I get tired, help me.
Wherever you are, Father Viracocha

I'm thinking about starting a website that gives life guidelines to gamers that have given up on real life. I hope to convince people the importance of overcoming nihilism and negative thinking through video game metaphors. It'll probably crash and burn but who knows.

Islam sounds nice but I doubt it will ever catch on in America. I'm waiting for some guy to write a sort of universe simulation theory based religion, that'd spread like wildfire if done right.

Nearly everyone in this thread is wrong, including OP.

Protestants are wrong the same way Islam is wrong. They are a local culture's fanfiction based in a fundamental misunderstanding of the original canon. The work ethic ingrained in Protestant doctrine creates neurosis, and the submission to the laws of Islam creates savagery. This is not ALWAYS true, only in cases of the uninitiated / ignorant. So nearly all cases.

The hilarious thing is they all say the same thing, but are just tailored to pull different emotional strings. And the theologizing of centuries of autists trying to twist faith into science, of course. Obey the law. Acknowledge God. Keep this faith, and be prosperous.

OP, Islam is fine if that's what speaks to you and moves your soul. But it has unresolved social issues that make supporting it an unethical choice, just as Catholicism does, or Protestantism, or Mormons, or those tiger monks who abuse animals for tourist money. Humans are shit. Don't be shit. Listen to God. Fuck adopting the mistakes of others.

Pic is Pope John Paul II praying for everyone in this thread.

>being this desperate for the certitude of science in one's faith

Have you ever experienced ANY religious feeling?

Yes, the catholic church has never changed and is literally the same as when Paul was preaching

Oh wait it's not

All religions are living things, attitudes change, practices change, interpretations change. Religions are part of society and there's always back and fortb, each influencing the other. A big example is the Catholic church saying Jews still have a covenant with God and don't need to be converted. It's no coincidence this innovation appeared at a time when the church was trying to modernise and the holocaust had made remnants of historical anti-jewish practices culturally unacceptable. It's a 180 from what the church taught before.

at least you can see the law of large numbers in practice unlike your invisible skyfairy

Islam isn't intellectual in any sense. For example, pork is forbidden. Art isn't allowed. How can Islam be intellectual when it has retarded beliefs that go against science? Speaking of science, Islamic countries never made any noteworthy contributions to science in modern times. How can you, when your freedom of expression is suppressed?

The intellectual elite is already ruling the masses. If you're dumb, you won't have much independent thought and expression anyway. You tend to follow whatever's popular.

t. pagan larper

then learn it.

>Islam isn't intellectual in any sense.
Islam created the first university in the world, and there are still tons of Islamic universities. Islam was founded on intellectualism
>For example, pork is forbidden.
it's also forbidden by the Bible, Christians just don't care. and pork is unhealthy and can give you all kinds of diseases, so Muslims are pretty smart to avoid it
>Art isn't allowed.
??? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_art
>How can Islam be intellectual when it has retarded beliefs that go against science?
It's more scientific than any other religion scienceislam.com/muslims_science.php
theguardian.com/science/2010/feb/01/islamic-science
huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/overcoming-historical-amnesia_b_4135868.html
Christians are the unscientific ones
>Speaking of science, Islamic countries never made any noteworthy contributions to science in modern times.
Without Islam science wouldn't even exist, you fucking moron
>How can you, when your freedom of expression is suppressed?
lmao, you're literally making the >'muh freeze peach' argument unironically? please explain how blasphemy being restricted prevents science? (it doesn't). blasphemy is also forbidden in Christianity btw, hmm isn't that restricting free speech?
>The intellectual elite is already ruling the masses. If you're dumb, you won't have much independent thought and expression anyway. You tend to follow whatever's popular.
wow you're so smart, I'm proud of you :) i bet your online IQ test scores are super high! everyone else is just inferior in their intellect! :)

It's not. Only in some American (((churches))).

jesus user the bhagavad gita is long as fuck why would you curse a fellow autist like that

PSA is bullshit peddled exclusively by proddies

That's not the updated version of that cool, very scientific graph.

>it's also forbidden by the Bible, Christians just don't care. and pork is unhealthy and can give you all kinds of diseases, so Muslims are pretty smart to avoid it

It's not even an issue now because of modern science, but Muslims don't care about science.

>Without Islam science wouldn't even exist, you fucking moron

They just stole all of their ideas from the other cultures. Islam is inherently anti-scientific because Muslims refuse to change their views despite of evidence.

> please explain how blasphemy being restricted prevents science? (it doesn't). blasphemy is also forbidden in Christianity btw, hmm isn't that restricting free speech?

Western nations are more advanced. If you think Islam didn't suppress scientific progress, you're just delusional.

>wow you're so smart, I'm proud of you :) i bet your online IQ test scores are super high! everyone else is just inferior in their intellect! :)

I never made any claims about myself, retard. You're one who first mentioned about intellectuals ruling the masses.

>this post isn't ironic

you can learn about it after we push them out of europe, mhkay

fucking kek dude re-evaluate your life, you sound like a high schooler

Muhammad is one of the most obvious false prophets in history.

The Book of Genesis describes his forefather (and by extension him) as a "wild ass of a man".

He did some good but his moral compass is definitely not acceptable among modern westerners

>From a purely pragmatic standpoint I've never met a Muslim that wasn't a thoroughly decent person (although I've only ever known upper class Muslims).

An old lady I know who grew up around Muslims said that they are nice to your face and then stab you in the back.

His moral compass is not acceptable to God, or to any good man ancient or modern.

>Muslims don't care about science.
wrong and delusional
>They just stole all of their ideas from the other cultures. Islam is inherently anti-scientific
again, you're wrong, and delusional.
>Western nations are more advanced.
that's not because of religion. maybe being bombed by the west constantly has something to do with it?
>I never made any claims about myself, retard. You're one who first mentioned about intellectuals ruling the masses.
I'm not the person you were replying to lmao

>I'm not the person you were replying to lmao

It doesn't matter, you're just as retarded as that person.