Old testament vs New testament

what?

I like how persistent you are with shilling this book. I am going to buy this now. You convinced me.

You will not regret it

Old Testament is vastly more interesting, it's a cross-section of hundreds of years of israelite religion and literature. The New Testament is more like a snapshot of a few decades in the first century. It's pretty one-note compared to the vast scope of the Old.

1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus probably weren't written by Paul.

mebbe if you are delusional and ignorant of historical criticism. Its fucking fan fiction

>new or old?
last.

>Not the real last testament

Muhammad was literally a false prophet
Carnal man, for carnal men

I wish the NT had more content

The Old Testament. It's full of heroism and drama. Most of the New is pansy shit.

Your "New Testament"?

The validity of Muhammad is borne out by history, like it or not. If I was Muslim I'd reply: At least the prophet Muhammad knew what he was.

Jesus has some good parables, but the OT is the greater work.

If you read the TANAKH the 'OT' is even better.

Calm down, Goldstein

I prefer the New Testament since it's more applicable to spiritual living in daily life. It really depends on if you're reading it for its literary merits or as a spiritual guide.

What's your excuse for not reading the Talmud

I'm not a sucker of baby cock.

The fall of Saul triggered me beyond repair desu senpai

>reading Old Testament deuterocanon/apocrypha
>There's a story about a guy going blind from birds shitting in his eyes
Protestants are really missing out.

Jonathan.. But this is how it is.

kek

Fuck off, David

dont forget to get robert alter's OT translations as well for that complete meme bible

I find Alter's pretty good desu. I have his Judges, Samuel, Kings, etc, and don't see a problem with them.

What do you find bad about them?

I don't think anyone's saying they're bad, jusy that they constantly shilled and are ultimately pointless translations since there are literally dozens of English bible translations, most of which are done by teams of highly qualified scholars. Buying translations done by single dudes because some folks on Veeky Forums (who can't talk about translation accuracy) subjectively like them.

I'm not saying they're bad at all. I like them. They are just shilled like said, probably because they are presented as more literary translations.

The OT, if you're reading it as literature.

This is a nice picture. What is the source?
I imagine the background story is this village somewhere in Eastern Europe putting up a cross after the fall of communism, even though the style of houses below are probably signs that it isn't.

If you read your Benedict XVI you'd know that the two cannot be separated. Just as Christ completes the Law and the Prophets, the New Testament completes the Old.

Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs are my favorite parts of the Bible. Gonna go with OT on this one.

> he that findeth his life shall lose it

There is no greater statement and summation of the human condition than that.

>To know nothing about yourself is to live. To know yourself badly is to think.
--Pessoa

Thought of this. Not intended as a competing summation.

> and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

the second part is just as important

When will they make saint Benedict XVI a doctor of the church?

OT is leagues better, with highlights being the Books of Moses, Psalms, and the major prophets (Isaiah - Daniel).

this desu. John > Matt > Mark > Luke. Fuck off with the Nativity, give me the Gospel for those who are already Christian.

Lel

it's subtitle is "another testament", can you even read? It also talks about there being other scriptures from other parts of the world, not just Israel and the Americas.

This is Veeky Forums what do you think

>literally the worst part of the bible
>your favorite
what the actual fuck man.

>mentioning Epistles that Paul might not have written
>no mention of Hebrews
that shit was so sus they put it at the end of the Epistles.

>not knowing Ecclesiastes is one of the best books of the Bible

...

>preferring OT to NT
OT was repetitive rule making, drawn out descriptions, long boring stories and a couple good parts (Genesis, Eclesiates, some prophets).
NT was consistently dense as fuck, even if somewhat repetitive.

Can someone explain the value of Christian Mysticism?

Essentially christianity was jealous of Kaballah and came up with some stupid shit.
Stick to theology. Christian theology reaches Kaballah's levels of deriving whole books from one or two words then goes beyond.

Yes. Islam was designed and marketed to the darker races

The next pope will probably do it, assuming he's more conservative than Francis.

It reminds us that Christianity has a supernatural component that can't be ignored. Union with God on the spiritual, metaphysical level is arguably the primary goal of Christianity, but in our daily lives we can lose sight of that. Mysticism brings it back to the forefront of things. It causes us to seek after union with God in ways that transcend the normal operations of human life.

That seems pretty uncontroversial. I wonder why people are hostile to it.

Because religion's just about being happy, right?

When Christ comes again in glory and all the Earth is made new, and the sheep are separated from the goats, I hope my eternal self is in the vicinity to watch Joel Osteen get cast into Hell.

One reason I've thought about is that it's to sharpen the faith of Christians. It's also possible it was meant to be a punishment on the Orthodox Church for straying from the One True Faith.

this

Good question. Obviously, we can often only speculate as to God's intentions, but I believe it is the most compelling religion to those who seek self-justification for what they already believe instead of actual Truth.
The crux of Christianity is that humans don't understand life and God and that Jesus came to teach us how little we understand. HIs sermons are full of paradoxes and counter-intuitive ideas (love your enemies, lose your life to gain it etc...)

Islam is a reaffirmation of what humans THINK is true. (ie lay waste to your enemies but try to be honorable, follow the strongest leader you find etc...)

So I think Islam may exist as a test, do we follow Muhammad, an appealing leader, who lays waste to his enemies and is undefeated and tells us what we want to hear? Or Jesus, a peaceful man who's greatest accomplishment was dying and who tells us we don't understand the world.

THE MYSTICAL THEOLOGY
CHAPTER I

What is the Divine Darkness?

Supernal Triad, Deity above all essence, knowledge and goodness; Guide of Christians to Divine Wisdom; direct our path to the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.

Let this be my prayer; but do, dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness.

But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place.

First, let the soul strive to work in its own despite, and desire all to do so. Secondly, let it
strive to speak in its own despite and desire all to do so. Third, let it strive to think humbly
of itself, in its own despite, and desire all to do so.

To conclude these counsels and rules, it will be fitting to set down here those lines which
are written in the Ascent of the Mount, which is the figure that is at the beginning of this
book; the which lines are instructions for ascending to it, and thus reaching the summit of
union. For, although it is true that that which is there spoken of is spiritual and interior,
there is reference likewise to the spirit of imperfection according to sensual and exterior
things, as may be seen by the two roads which are on either side of the path of perfection.
It is in this way and according to this sense that we shall understand them here; that is to
say, according to that which is sensual. Afterwards, in the second part of this night, they
will be understood according to that which is spiritual.

The lines are these:

In order to arrive at having pleasure in everything,
Desire to have pleasure in nothing.

In order to arrive at possessing everything,
Desire to possess nothing.

In order to arrive at being everything,
Desire to be nothing.

In order to arrive at knowing everything,
Desire to know nothing.

In order to arrive at that wherein thou hast no pleasure,
Thou must go by a way wherein thou hast no pleasure.

In order to arrive at that which thou knowest not,
Thou must go by a way that thou knowest not.

In order to arrive at that which thou possessest not,
Thou must go by a way that thou possessest not.

In order to arrive at that which thou art not,
Thou must go through that which thou art not.

-

When thy mind dwells upon anything:
Thou art ceasing to cast thyself upon the All. For, in order to pass from
the all to the All, Thou hast to deny thyself wholly in all. And, when
thou comest to possess it wholly, Thou must possess it without desiring
anything. For, if thou wilt have anything in having all, Thou hast not
thy treasure purely in God.

In this detachment the spiritual soul finds its quiet and repose; for, since it covets nothing,
nothing wearies it when it is lifted up, and nothing oppresses it when it is cast down, because
it is in the centre of its humility; but when it covets anything, at that very moment it becomes
wearied.

Our Lord was pleased that I should have at times a vision of this kind: I saw an angel close by me, on my left side, in bodily form. This I am not accustomed to see, unless very rarely. Though I have visions of angels frequently, yet I see them only by an intellectual vision, such as I have spoken of before. It was our Lord's will that in this vision I should see the angel in this wise.

He was not large, but small of stature, and most beautiful—his face burning, as if he were one of the highest angels, who seem to be all of fire: they must be those whom we call cherubim. Their names they never tell me; but I see very well that there is in heaven so great a difference between one angel and another, and between these and the others, that I cannot explain it.

I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God. The pain was so great, that it made me moan; and yet so surpassing was the sweetness of this excessive pain, that I could not wish to be rid of it. The soul is satisfied now with nothing less than God. The pain is not bodily, but spiritual; though the body has its share in it, even a large one. It is a caressing of love so sweet which now takes place between the soul and God, that I pray God of His goodness to make him experience it who may think that I am lying.

During the days that this lasted, I went about as if beside myself. I wished to see, or speak with, no one, but only to cherish my pain, which was to me a greater bliss than all created things could give me.

I was in this state from time to time, whenever it was our Lord's pleasure to throw me into those deep trances, which I could not prevent even when I was in the company of others, and which, to my deep vexation, came to be publicly known. Since then, I do not feel that pain so much, but only that which I spoke of before,—I do not remember the chapter,—which is in many ways very different from it, and of greater worth. On the other hand, when this pain, of which I am now speaking, begins, our Lord seems to lay hold of the soul, and to throw it into a trance, so that there is no time for me to have any sense of pain or suffering, because fruition ensues at once. May He be blessed for ever, who hath bestowed such great graces on one who has responded so ill to blessings so great!

Is there any reading material you would recommend for learning more about Christian Mysticism? Is it primarily a Catholic thing?

Then this soul, as if inebriated, tormented, and on fire with love, her heart wounded with great bitterness, turned herself to the Supreme and Eternal Goodness, saying:

"O Eternal God! O Light above every other light, from whom issues all light! O Fire above every fire, because You are the only Fire who burn without consuming, and consume all sin and self-love found in the soul, not afflicting her, but fattening her with insatiable love, and though the soul is filled she is not sated, but ever desires You, and the more of You she has, the more she seeks -- and the more she desires, the more she finds and tastes of You -- Supreme and Eternal Fire, Abyss of Charity.

"O Supreme and Eternal Good, who has moved You, Infinite God, to illuminate me, Your finite creature, with the light of Your Truth? You, the same Fire of Love are the cause, because it is always love which constrained and constrains You to create us in Your image and similitude, and to do us mercy, giving immeasurable and infinite graces to Your rational creatures.

"O Goodness above all goodness! You alone are He who is Supremely Good, and nevertheless You gave the Word, Your only-begotten Son, to converse with us filthy ones and filled with darkness. What was the cause of this? Love. Because You loved us before we were. O Good, O Eternal Greatness! You made Yourself low and small to make man great. On whichever side I turn I find nothing but the abyss and fire of Your charity.

"And can a wretch like me pay back to You the graces and the burning charity that You have shown and show with so much burning love in particular to me beyond common charity, and the love that You show to all Your creatures? No, but You alone, most sweet and amorous Father, are He who will be thankful and grateful for me, that is, that the affection of Your charity itself will render You thanks, because I am she who is not, and if I spoke as being anything of myself, I should be lying by my own head, and should be a lying daughter of the Devil, who is the father of lies, because You alone are He who is.

"And my being and every further grace that You have bestowed upon me, I have from You, who give them to me through love, and not as my due."

I don't know about reading "about" Christian mysticism, because I only read the primary sources.

It's not solely a Catholic thing, but I'm Catholic.
Orthodox claim their own mystics. We share their mystics up until the schism, but there's a lot in their post-schismatic mystic that Catholics would probably still agree with.

I don't know about Protestant mystics. I don't think Protestantism ever bothered too much with sanctification in general, because of their idea of total depravity, and that we are justified/saved externally rather than internally.

However, there was an early 20th century French theologian called Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, a Dominican, who I believe did a good job of trying to present Christian spirituality/mysticism in a systematic, presentable fashion.

christianperfection.info/index.php

The contents is on the left. Part III is when he starts getting into mysticism.

>In Part One of this work, we discussed the principles or the sources of the interior life, the organism of the virtues and the gifts, the nature of Christian perfection, its elevation, and the general obligation of every Christian and the special obligation of priests and religious to tend to perfection.

>In Part Two we treated of the purification of the soul in beginners, of sins to be avoided, of the predominant fault, of the active purification of the senses and the spirit, especially of the active purification of the memory, the understanding, the will, and finally of I the mental prayer of beginners.

>We shall now, logically, proceed to the consideration of the illuminative way of proficients, which is the continuation of the purgative way under another name.

Other than that, I think St. Teresa of Avila's "Interior Castle" is an excellent introduction. She goes through the stages of the spiritual life as well, so you can see how it develops.

sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/index.htm

There is a classical understanding of how the soul develops, separated into three stages: purgative (beginner), illuminative (proficient), unitive (perfect).
In the Purgative Way, beginners are cleansed of their faults, and eventually their souls are prepared for spiritual illumination through detachment from the world and sensual pleasures.
In the Illuminative Way, proficients begin to be exercised in supernatural contemplation, where God works in the soul. They develop spiritual insight, but they still need to undergo a further purification so that their spirits are perfectly detached.
In the Unitive Way, the perfect enter into mystical union with God and live in an almost permanent state of communication with God as far as can be attained in this life; this stage culminates in the "mystical marriage", the wedding between God and the soul.

Also, "The Imitation of Christ" is a classic, and it's a really solid introduction to Christian spirituality.

sacred-texts.com/chr/ioc/index.htm

Look up The Cloud of Unknowing. It's a classic of Christian mysticism. Also Julian of Norwich. They're both serious texts about the eradication or abjection of the self for the vision of the divine.

Wow. Thanks for all of this info! I'll look into it all. I hadn't really even heard of mysticism.

I often asked myself why God had preferences, why all souls did not receive an equal measure of grace. I was filled with wonder when I saw extraordinary favours showered on great sinners like St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Mary Magdalen, and many others, whom He forced, so to speak, to receive His grace. In reading the lives of the Saints I was surprised to see that there were certain privileged souls, whom Our Lord favoured from the cradle to the grave, allowing no obstacle in their path which might keep them from mounting towards Him, permitting no sin to soil the spotless brightness of their baptismal robe. And again it puzzled me why so many poor savages should die without having even heard the name of God.

Our Lord has deigned to explain this mystery to me. He showed me the book of nature, and I understood that every flower created by Him is beautiful, that the brilliance of the rose and the whiteness of the lily do not lessen the perfume of the violet or the sweet simplicity of the daisy. I understood that if all the lowly flowers wished to be roses, nature would lose its springtide beauty, and the fields would no longer be enamelled with lovely hues. And so it is in the world of souls, Our Lord's living garden. He has been pleased to create great Saints who may be compared to the lily and the rose, but He has also created lesser ones, who must be content to be daisies or simple violets flowering at His Feet, and whose mission it is to gladden His Divine Eyes when He deigns to look down on them. And the more gladly they do His Will the greater is their perfection.

I understood this also, that God's Love is made manifest as well in a simple soul which does not resist His grace as in one more highly endowed. In fact, the characteristic of love being self-abasement, if all souls resembled the holy Doctors who have illuminated the Church, it seems that God in coming to them would not stoop low enough. But He has created the little child, who knows nothing and can but utter feeble cries, and the poor savage who has only the natural law to guide him, and it is to their hearts that He deigns to stoop. These are the field flowers whose simplicity charms Him; and by His condescension to them Our Saviour shows His infinite greatness. As the sun shines both on the cedar and on the floweret, so the Divine Sun illumines every soul, great and small, and all correspond to His care—just as in nature the seasons are so disposed that on the appointed day the humblest daisy shall unfold its petals.

Okay tell me where this is from. I need to read this.

The mystery of the incarnation of the Logos is the key to all the arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward essences of created things; while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything.

All visible realities need the cross, that is, the state in which they are cut off from things acting upon them through the senses. All intelligible realities need burial, that is, the total quiescence of the things which act upon them through the intellect. When all relationship with such things is severed, and their natural activity and
stimulus is cut off, then the Logos, who exists alone in Himself, appears as if risen from the dead. He encompasses all that comes from Him, but nothing enjoys kinship with Him by virtue of natural relationship. For the salvation of the saved is by grace and not by nature (cf. Eph. 2:5).

Ages, times and places belong to the category of relationship, and consequently no object necessarily associated with these things can be other than relative. But God transcends the category of relationship; for nothing else whatsoever is necessarily associated with Him. Therefore if the inheritance of the saints is God Himself, he who is found worthy of this grace will he beyond all ages, times and places: he will have God Himself as his place, in accordance with the text, ‘Be to me a God who is a defender and a fortified place of my salvation’ (Ps. 71:3. LXX).

gutenberg.org/cache/epub/16772/pg16772-images.html

here's a story about a man who read her book

mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/08/brother-marcel-van-spirtual-brother-of.html

You're the man. Thanks a lot.