What is the evolutionary purpose of suicide?

animals evolved intelligent brains capable of problem solving and complicated behaviours because it helped them hunt and avoid being hunted and interact cooperatively with members of their species.

the way this was achieved was creating an organ which rewarded certain behaviours and outcomes with pleasure, and this gave rise to emotional states and enjoying mental stimulation which often is not related to survival and reproduction.
It went with the territory of being intelligent so to speak.

It's not just humans who commit suicide btw.
Torment animals like bears or monkeys over a long time then when you give them freedom they'll often not do anything to prolong their life, or might self-harm.
even mice exhibit behaviour which is not in their best interests to survive and reproduce if you cause them to suffer and be stressed long term.

The way our species has achieved intelligence and achieved a society has lead to a lot of emergent phenomena.

relief

To get rid of incels

There's a book about evolution and depression (or low mood) called The Depths by Jonathan Rottenberg. They argue:

>de-escalates conflicts => you live because you yield instead of fighting to death
>as a "stop mechanism" => you stop doing things which probably aren't valuable
>you analyze more and make better decisions

oh wow very edgy and cool!. No go back to /pol/ pls

To kill yourself

bring a better explanation

If it was like you said, there wouldn't be suicidal people to begin with

Now go back

>...[T]his explains why suicides rise with unemployment, and also with the number of days a person has been on bed rest. Just the experience of needing and receiving help from friends—rather than doing for oneself and others—can make a person pine for death. We’re a gregarious species, but also a gallant one, so fond of playing the savior that we’d rather die than switch roles with the saved. In this way suicide isn’t the ultimate act of selfishness or a bid for revenge, two of the more common cultural barbs. It’s closer to mistaken heroism.
>If suicide has an evolutionary component, as [Thomas] Joiner believes it might, this is where it manifests itself. Humans are not the only animals that commit suicide. Bumblebees kill themselves as a defense against parasites, abandoning the nest to save it. Pea aphids do something similar. They use a kind of suicide bomb that maims ladybugs, their biggest predator, to save their own kind. Higher up in the animal kingdom, male lions sacrifice themselves on the savannas: they expose their throats to attacking clans in an effort to give other family members a chance to escape. A similar instinct may still linger in our DNA, colliding uncomfortably with the frailties and banalities of modern life.

you seem like a insufferable person desu
t. not him

>bring a better explanation
If you really want a non-meme answer you can read "Why People Die by Suicide" by Thomas Joiner hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674025493&content=reviews and the first WHO report on preventing suicide who.int/mental_health/suicide-prevention/world_report_2014/en/ (the WHO report was released in 2014 and uses data up to 2012 but for a lot of countries those were estimations and were not totally correct, this has changed since the last couple of years and since 2017 we have reliable data for all countries of the world, you can also read more about Suicide data here who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicideprevent/en/)

What? How is that edgy in any way? Are you offended because you're suicidal? Obviously if there is any evolutionary point to suicide it would be to weed out the weak.

>what is the evolutionary purpose of...
If you have ever thought about this statement long enough to warrant a post on Veeky Forums, you should kill yourself. Evolution doesnt always have a purpose and evolution doesnt give a fuck about what happens to you after reproductive age.

It's good for the species if weak and depressed individuals cull themselves, leaving more vital resources for those able and willing to fight for survival

Giving peers who share similar DNA advantage. People prone to suicide will also diligently work on the betterment of the group when functional, that's why in Tengrism it's the biggest shamefur dispray for the family.

Suicide is like male nipples but more extreme.
Actually some suicide might be handy to stop failures eating resources, but like male nipples, we haven't any reason to believe that it is a trait that was selected for. Could be a side effect of other selection, like butt cancer. Nobody knows.

people who bring pol into every argument sound like awful people to be around in real life. also your logic is retarded, not trying to claim the original statement is true but
>heh, if natural selection kills the weak why do weak people exist? check mate
absolute retard

the willingness to die is powerful

would you rather have an army of 100 soldiers willing to die or an army of 200 soldiers that dont want to die?

now consider in the animal kingdom that violence is generally very powerful and contributes to natural selection

salmon and other animals basically commit suicide to breed

that willingness to die is sometimes misguided into suicide

To end shitposting on Veeky Forums.

What is the evolutionary purpose of getting hit in the head by falling rocks?

see: every evolutionary theory since 1800

This.

When will the 'what is the evolutionary purpose of something that has nothing to do with evolution'

reminds me of mad max.

another idea is a person's suffering outweighs their pleasure and their simple mind makes a calculation. ignorance

there's balance. I had extremely poor quality of life a year ago. but even then there were all types of new pleasures and sensations to chase. and when my quality of life improved it was like 'woah dude I'm high on life" but a neurotypical might just decide to give up with a slight dip in their quality of life/mental health. people are fragile. the mind plays tricks on you. if your quality of life is really bad your mind might actually trick you in hating yourself(you become the monster) and society culls you. also. hell is other people. i feel the urge to suicide when I'm around degenerate people. or I feel the willingness to die like mentioned

...

Removing shitty genes from the pool.

don't forget how complex a person happiness is

ughh i can't find the one pyramid pic outlining human happiness on my drive, it has food/water/air at bottom
sex life in middle
and self actualization at top.

some people are motivated by competition and might suicide if they never reach self actualization while others satisfied living in squalor

Suicide is a power even God doesn't have.

As a person who's suffered from depression. Suicide seems to be only done by really strong people.

>implying there is any reason an organism would naturally be inclined to not engage in homeostasis

There is none. If you die, you can't reproduce anymore. Suicide is a side effect of bad health, just like dying. There is no evolutionary reason to die.

Weeding out the weak.

deep

I think there's an Asimov story about that. Could be another author though.

>takes anons original argument to its logical conclusion, in the process demonstrates it cannot be correct as it is irreconcilable with our observations
>gets called insufferable
The state of sci

The only posts of worth ITT so far:

If by strong you mean self-obsessed and manipulative

IHNMAIMS?

>evolutionary
>purpose

This. Natural selection can work on the group level. For example, tribes where the weakest members kill themselves are more fit because the stronger members are less burdened and have access to more resources. The tribes that don't have the trait where members that prove to be weak kill themselves will not be as competitive and will eventually by outnumbered by those that do.

You have it kinda ass backwards. Yes, an individual might kill himself in order to spare resources for his closest kin since that would maximize the chances of his genes being passed on since most of them are present in his kin.

Basically in a kin selection model this could make sense on the group level due to selfish genes, but a group selection model would simply contradict evolution entirely since it doesn't really take into account genes except on an arbitrarily large level such as "for the good of the species" or "for the good of the tribe". Group selection is internally inconsistent this way.

t. brainlet

I rarely see manipulative people commit suicide because they usually have a lot of fun manipulating people and possibly taking their money from said manipulation. Not sure about self-obsessed or narcissistic people though.

Then explain why people without friends or family kill themselves

Are my soldiers attacking or defending?

It's a tribal defense mechanism so that if someone does something wrong they kill them-self so then they don't do it again, also they will pass on their genes because of a thotty that feels bad for them.

interesting take on how the "bravery gene" evolved into the "everything is shit and it all depends on me not being shit" gene. all these people talking about competition for resources and selfless acts and societal pressures don't understand the nature of depression and suicide. so let me explain.Depression is prolonged "sadness" or rather a lack of enjoyment. Its not that you are sad, your are numb, and don't care about anything. You have given up. This mood state comes with very low energy, ruminations, and some mood swings. Suicide happens when the depressed gets enough energy to act on their impulses.
They kill themselves becuase they see that the current level of their suffering while existing is believed to be much higher than not existing. So they would rather not exist than to carry on in pain and torment. now here is where "evolutionary psychology" comes into play.
So as you know the brian is really important to our functions and as some anons have pointed out that suicide is a result of
"higher brain functions". However anyone who knows about psychology and the brain knows that it can be tricked and there's a lot of things that get in the way of raiotnality.
Like optical illusions, AND
the need for instant gratification.
Which directly relates to people who are suicidial. Note people who are suicidal want to kill themselves immeidatly.
They don't see the point in killing themselves slowly any more than they are becuase why add more suffering right? SO they kill themselves by hanging, gun shot, or Overdose. Which is alot quicker than exposure, starvation, cancer, and AIDS.
So the "Evolutionary explanation" of suicide is that we as humans still make rational errors. And in the case of suicide its the reasoning that what ever they are suffering from will never get better.

"Suicide is a long-term solution for a short term problem"

and sweet jesus fuck why isn't it letting me post!

test

bump

>purpose

Why do you assume everything has a purpose? Was there a purpose to you making this shitty thread, or were you just bored?

Emotionally manipulative

>What is the evolutionary purpose of suicide?
Evolution doesn't have a purpose, this is what retarded people with literally no use of intelligence don't understand.

There is no magic hand guiding evolution, evolution doesn't happen for a reason it is just the consequence of some things lasting longer in time, nothing more.

If suicide is related to genetics then it will get passed on until for some reason they dont. thats about ALL there is to evolution.

Prevention of faulty genetics being spread throughout the gene pool. You should really consider commiting that, or don't have children. It's better for the whole of our species.

My mother once had a boyfriend that was emotionally manipulative. She just got home from college and he always wanted to start shit. So she locked him down in the basement for a few hours because he was that much of a piece of shit, and after a few hours of him telling her he was going to kill himself, she let him out and he started to argue with her about why she didn't let him out when he said he was going to kill himself. She knew that he wasn't.

>My mother once had a boyfriend that was emotionally manipulative. She just got home from college and he always wanted to start shit.

That being said, being locked in a basement might make you say and do some crazy shit user fuck.

Now that I think about it, it's the emotionally manipulative types who talk a big game but never actually harm themselves

Removing unsuitable genes from the gene pool. If you can't deal, you don't need to be fathering children who also can't deal.

Where should I bring it?

what is the probability of dying by suicide in Lithuania over 40 years?

something like 1 in 60?

both attacking and defending. if soldiers dont want to die they will do one of a few things:

1.run away
2.hide
3. submit to the enemy and throw down their weapons

all 3 are bad because your army is no more. 1 and 2 will get singled out and die without the tribe, probably

3 is bad if you dont have something useful to submit to the enemy

I know. But he was always doing this and being emotional manipulative to her for many months.

Exactly. Making two different posts because I didn't see this one.

Few soldiers want to die, but many fight.

>evolutionary purpose

Name one more contradictory phrase.

>community college graduate

Not acording to lutherans.

incel spotted

Jesus christ, finish high school before you ever post again.

how is butt cancer a side effect of other selection? I dont know much about cancer

>evolution doesnt give a fuck about what happens to you after reproductive age
Kids need someone to take care of them.

the difference being that feeling suicidal is dependent on the psychology which in turn is dependent on the genetics of an individual (ie. some people as well as animals will never feel suicidal), and so natural selection should remove such a behaviour unless there was an cause for its presence

Brains aren't perfect. Shit gets screwed up.

Nature is now edgy

well yeah but you could attribute any behaviour to that argument. no point in doing that until you rule out any other causes though

There is no reason to believe suicide has any "evolutionary purpose", so mental illness wins. Every half-assed attempt to explain suicide ITT argues for group selection, lol.

look im not even arguing about the cause, im just saying, its reasonable to post the thread to resolve the question one way or another.

And you could attribute suicide to any evolutionary purpose with no more than speculation so why are we having this stupid conversation.

mate are you simple or something? i literally just explained that im not arguing about it one way or another, just saying that it was a valid thread for OP to make

if you cant distinguish between these two points you need to get tested for autism

I get really depressed when I read these threads and see no one correct "purpose", there is no purpose, only an 'advantage'.

underrated

yes, but depression is only one of the factors that increase the likelyhood of commiting suicide

evolution just happens it doesnt have purpose

no one to manipulate