Veeky Forums, why do you still not believe in free will?

The observable universe, as centered on me.

so you don't have any more leeway in exercising your will than an ant?

Free will is the application of randomness in an otherwise deterministic system which produces potential plans of action. The results are then algorithmically maximized for one or more factors, depending on the situation.

Fight me.

i accept free will but don't think it has anything to do with determinism or randomness
determinism/indeterminism has no effect on whether we have free will or not
the freedom of the will is just whatever freedom a creature has in exercising its will, and some creatures (such as normal humans) have enough of that freedom that we can just say of them generically that they "have free will"
the freedom involved in exercising the will is stuff like the ability to consider multiple possibilities, rationally weigh and act on reasons, apply self-awareness, reconsider and reevaluate, etc.
we have all those abilities to a greater extent than any other living creature we know, thus our will is freer than that of any animal
all those abilities can be impaired though, e.g. by alcohol, brain damage, indoctrination, mental decay, etc., so not every human is equally free in exercising his or her will at all times

There's definitely no such thing as free will, the idea is pure nonsense. Human behavior could be predicted with 100% accuracy given sufficient processing power/technological advancement. No idea how anyone is stupid enough to think living beings have magical free will particles that exempt them from the laws of physics.

>compatibilism

that doesn't address anything i said
anyway,
>Human behavior could be predicted with 100% accuracy given sufficient processing power/technological advancement
that's almost certainly not true, but even if it were it wouldn't imply no free will

different user but here's an elaboration: compatibilism is true
come at me desu

free will is logically impossible and everyone who isn't a brainlet realizes this in middle school

Nothing wrong with it.

An apple is no less an apple for the fact that it can also be described as a septillion atoms in a certain type of order.

Sure, based off middle school physics. Which so happens to be wrong.

>the freedom involved in exercising the will
You need to define these terms, "freedom" and "will" especially.

>the ability to consider multiple possibilities, rationally weigh and act on reasons, apply self-awareness, reconsider and reevaluate, etc.
What is free about these things? Being unhindered by other people? Most people would consider that political freedom. Constraint? Are we still not ultimately powerless to the forces of our ideation and motives, which permeate and are the basis of your examples.

You're probably just stuck in a human-animal paradigm. Maybe study some evolution and realize your actual place in the world. You aren't skimming across the top of the water, the octopus is our neighbor.

>the ability to consider multiple possibilities, rationally weigh and act on reasons, apply self-awareness, reconsider and reevaluate, etc.
What are you doing when you aren't doing any of these things? Are you not free during the rest of your life? The ideas in your head are all made of the same thing. What is special about rationally weighing consequences compared to jerking off while drunk?

The recording of an apple and an apple itself are incompatibly dissimilar.

>You need to define these terms, "freedom" and "will" especially.
why? they're ordinary english words
are you skeptical of freedom and the will in general? that makes you the weird one
>What is free about these things?
they are capacities that enable you to exercise your will in richer ways than anything else on earth can
>Are we still not ultimately powerless to the forces of our ideation and motives
i mean, to some extent both your ideation and your motives are your own powers: you have the power to form ideas and motives
to some extent you may also be subject to irrational or uncontrollable thoughts and desires, though, like in the examples i gave of reduced freedom of the will
but not all ideas and motives are irrational and uncontrollable, otherwise it would be pointless to distinguish those categories in our ordinary language, but in fact it is very useful
>You're probably just stuck in a human-animal paradigm. Maybe study some evolution and realize your actual place in the world. You aren't skimming across the top of the water, the octopus is our neighbor.
what?
>What are you doing when you aren't doing any of these things?
normal people have and exercise these capacities most of the time, though i'm open to the idea that putting more effort into it can make you freer

>muh quantum mechanics
Randomness isn't free will.
Do you think chess engines have free will?

of course not, they don't even have a will

Yet they play chess. Why is it wrong to say humans don't have wills? They also play chess. If you've ever played against an engine, you'll notice they take take time, they don't play the same moves every time, and they make mistakes, just like humans. So, why don't they have a will, or free will, just as humans would?

>are you skeptical of freedom and the will
There are many different ideas about these things and I don't know which ones you're assuming.

>in richer ways than anything else on earth can
Here we go

>to some extent both your ideation and your motives are your own powers
They have their own nature and are essentially uncontrollable unless their nature is entirely controllable.

>not all ideas and motives are irrational and uncontrollable
To what degree do you control any of your ideas and to what degree do they control you?
How can that even make sense when the notion of "you" is an idea? Also, do you really control your ideas? Mine pop into my head on their own or as the result of external influence.

>what?
>we have all those abilities to a greater extent than any other living creature we know, thus our will is freer than that of any animal
You just seem like an anthropocentric doofus who values certain things and is trying to justify them with ideas from an arcane position.

>though i'm open to the idea that putting more effort into it can make you freer
Yeah, it seems like you have a strong sense of self and are trying to justify it with substance dualism. You aren't real, dude, nothing you perceive is real, it's all determined by your physiology. The assumed reality is the result of our concurrent experiences as the result of our common physiology. We are in the matrix and we don't have power over the controls.

the will is a part of the mind and computer programs do not have minds

>You aren't real, dude, nothing you perceive is real, it's all determined by your physiology. The assumed reality is the result of our concurrent experiences as the result of our common physiology. We are in the matrix and we don't have power over the controls.
i count at least 2 blatant self-contradictions in that little paragraph alone
that's pretty impressive