On education

Op here, who says I'm failing? I'm just interested in this question.

Although you do raise a good point. Maybe the failings of the school system are exaggerated by people who want an excuse.

We should note that "failing schools" should be put into the wider context of a society in deep crisis. In fact, schools are often the most stable anchor of community for many distressed and disintegrating populations.

>The best schools out there, I see highly creative students engaged in co and extra curricular activities that encourage creativity. I see no dearth of originality either.
>Clearly, you two are going by an anecdote. No scientific data on school killing creativity.

You're going by anecdote as well, can I have some scientific data that what you're saying is true?

>It inculcates skill and provides the necessary abilities to do jobs that serve society beneficially.
Except for when it fails to work as advertised.

All right, that was hypocritical. But don't blame the school system for your lack of creativity.

Any books/sources related to the quality/degredation of higher education or how things used to be taught in the 20th century and before? Most books I've tried to get on the Trivium don't seem to come at the angle I'm looking for.

>artists don't cute diarrhoea
sometimes they do

It's run by a government monopoly and the government is shit at everything. Meanwhile the teacher's unions make it impossible to get rid of low quality educators.

Universal education was a mistake

Education itself is inherently flawed. It takes children away from their family and what, speaking practically and not philosophically, we could call the "real world" for a simulacrum of it with many artificial constraints and laws which in actuality have no meaning at all.

Of course, being nitpicky, everything is part of the real world.

Primary school is bad due to children who can't behave and require all the teacher's attention or straight up ruin the experience for other children. Otherwise I think it's mostly okay.

"Middle school" has gotten too soft because politicians and teachers don't want to have to deal with anyone failing and look much better when everyone passes.

University is flawed in about every single way. It's a weird deal where employers will only take someone after an institution said "he went here", the institution only makes money if they get people through it, and to still be useful to employers in spite of the obvious degree factory tendencies, they kill any creativity and actual learning and focus on providing employable skills through a lifeless system of credits which you can receive for years without any professor ever knowing your first name.

Seconded.

I feel that education just encourages you to memorise and vomit out information in a specific order on an exam. Theres no actual useful application involved.

>Primary School
Pretty much fine. Teach kids some basic maths, how to read, just help em dip their toes in the water. I do think they need to be more relaxed about kid antics though. I remember primary school and it was always the end of the fucking world when me and my friends would start hitting each other. Calm tf down. Kid's get bruises, they learn, they live. Keep them out of life/limb threatening situations and let em beat the shit out of each other. We're fine.

>Middle School
Absolute shit. Kids are legally obligated to go to these so you get kids who actually wanna end up successful in the same classes as kids who don't give a single shit. Which isn't too bad when it comes to classroom setting, but the standards are lowered in an attempt to make it easier for the dipshits to pass.

>Highschool
Better. Separate the kids into Honors and Normal classes and you fix problems of the above. however, the system is too rigid by time you get to be about 16. They ain't the smartest, but a 16 year old is very much capable of discussing the topics they're learning about as opposed to doing work sheets and book reports. The only good class I took in HS was a literature class that had no homework, just participation grade during in class discussion and a couple essays.
16+ y/os shouldn't be given worksheets. They should be spoken to like adults even if the aren't QUITE there yet, because they'll be expected to do just that in 2 years. Again, dip their toes in the water of being an actual human being within or without an academic setting. Teach conversation based analysis

>College
I think it's more or less fine. It's an open field. Pay for admission to the park and the rest is up to you, sink or swim. You can be the dude who sits in the back and fulfills the class requirements to get the grade, or you can stay after class and talk to your prof. You don't HAVE to be here, I don't HAVE to be here. You decide where you run in the pack when you get to college.

>without any professor ever knowing your first name.
You're supposed to talk to them. Almost all of my professors knew me on a first name basis and I would get coffee with my favorites. It's not a weird thing to ask. "You wanna get coffee sometime? I'd love to hear what you have to say on [SUBJECT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN]."

In a classroom a professor is bound to the curriculum. Catch them out in the open and steal their knowledge. They know A LOT more than they say in a class and if you keep a good relationship with them, they give you that sweet sweet hookup on the smart shit. Also, professors totally pull strings for people who they're cool with. I can get into any english dept class I want even if the waitlist is 100 kids long bc in my sophomore year I had a class with the dept head and I would get coffee with him and shoot the shit.

amen

let those who want to learn do so by their own volition. its an absolute waste of time having teachers try to make kids care about school. if you don't care about school don't go to school

>Does it really kill creativity, or is that a liberal meme?
The education system is deeply flawed, but in most cases this particular attack is the product of whining parents incapable of disciplining their perfectly standard children, who believe their child deserves special treatment for doing badly in school.

I should point out I live in Europe and study law, so it's vastly different here. I know it's really cordial in the US/Canada, you can use first names and talk after class and whatever. My professors wear suits, use your last name, arrive late, are the first to leave, and if you asked them if they want to get coffee sometime they'd stare at you for a good ten minutes completely out of words.

But my point was that the credit system makes it so that you CAN go through it without anyone personally knowing if your IQ is below 50 or remembering your face.

>you CAN go through it without anyone personally knowing if your IQ is below 50 or remembering your face
I don't care about people who do that. they're dipshits who are wasting money (paying for the resources that will be used by better students).

>most of the people ITT think that contemporary education is alright
Did someone insert mind-altering implants into your skull at birth so you cannot see what is going on? Are you even human? This is fucking surreal. Rome is burning and you cannot see the flames in front of your own eyes.

>You decide where you run in the pack when you get to college.
I'm in the US as well and this is literally true here. I'm in my last semeseter of my undergrad and if I had done the bare minimum, I wouldn't be where I am today: honors college and doing some amazing research because I became friends with the dept. head of my particular department.

I am happy with how the education system is, because there's already enough competition among the highe echelons that I don't need normies and idiots stealing my time with my teachers. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

fucking waste of tax money and human capital
12 hours a day 5 days a week out of 9 months for12 years of someones life and not a single marketable skill gets taught

>ideal

Your first years would be divided between mathematics, literature, a foreign language, and an art. By middle school you've dropped the art and replaced it with history and you've dropped the literature and replaced it with philosophy which progresses into psychology and social science.
By high school your maths have been completed up to calculus and you can trade that for hard sciences, your literature, history, and philosophy courses have reached contemporary days and can be traded in for things like government, economics, and how to do your taxes. By high school we should all be multilingual mathematicians who know how to inform ourselves well enough to vote.

the execution of any idea is 9 out of 10 times right out terrible. I cite Justice, Security and Democracy as examples. You can think of many more examples. To say that the idea of schools in particular is the only one that is wrong for the reason that its proper execution is so rare is hypocritical. Unless you prepare to challenge the ideas of justice and democracy, I'd rather you don't use this reasoning to discredit schools because it indicates a human error.

I don't want to be dealing with false positives. So unless we have a comparison population that shows undeniably that schools do kill creativity, it is unfair and irrational to say they do. Perhaps there never was any creativity in those students to begin with. Even in the best of the institutions, only the most intelligent thrive, just like the shit schools. So perhaps creativity really just has to do with intelligence rather than the institution. Because, just think about it, creativity doesn't ask you 'LET ME BE!', it simply asks you what is and then finds its way about it. And if the rules are unjust, it will simply go against them. The creative mind remains free.

Schools can easily inculcate a love for knowledge with a good enough staff. Again, the problem is with particular schools, not the idea of it.

Lastly, I disagree that creativity is necessary for progress. No, diligent, rational, people are necessary for progress. It's only that those giant creative leaps are what remain in memory much more easily because they are more often talked about. Those leaps aren't impossible without the geniuses, just difficult. To rely on something so precarious as creativity is stupid. I'd take the certainty of being useful over the possibility of being a genius any day. And I'd prefer to inculcate the virtues of rationality and diligence in my children much more than make them 'creative' individuals -- after all, creativity is not something you can impart anyway; you just have to avoid stifling it.

It is democratic in nature which means that it suffocates actual talent.

Being Italian, I'll talk about the education system how I see it from my own perspective of an independently thinking, not-always-but-yet-often-straight-A high school student. First, the teaching class is made of total scumbags, who don't want to teach, who often hate their own pupils, who often contradict themselves. Many of them are self-hating failures, and I have a pretty vast experience with those beings. Not only that, but what they teach is nothing more than socialist or anyway leftist propaganda, and that's why I am an advocate of privatization of education. Blaming only the teachers, however, would not be right. Most of the students don't want to study, and it would be better if we left them at home doing nothing. School itself is the problem, whatever you do to improve it. They are a creatity-killing collectivist cesspool. They don't teach individualism, and I had to learn it by myself. I'd be better off if I could actually study t home with my own tutor. But it looks like I'd be too dangerous.

Obedience is not rationality, you fascist pig

That's the fault with your particular school though, so that criticism only applies to your school, not to the ideology of school itself.

Let me explain better. It's not just my own school, it's the whole Italian educational system. I don't know how it works abroad, but I've a lot of foreign friends and they tell me pretty much the same.

Elaborate.

I think teaching people is wrong. 'Love of learning' comes when you realize that knowledge has application, that it can help you connect with others and be useful. By forcing kids into education, you force them to accept the idea that the knowledge that is being fed to them is useful.
They do not buy it. The kids who do buy it and think it will be useful or are just interested from the start would have been okay just being exposed to the right material.
You're putting the cart before the horse. You want to teach someone how to be independent and 'well-rounded'(which just means independent to me) when you could from the start leave them as independent and provide opportunities for them to participate instead.
My grandpa did this with all his classes he taught, let the kids pick their own projects and he helped them when they had a question.
It's the misunderstanding that we can tell kids what to believe and what to care about that is the real bane of education.
I think the rest of talk about education is useless because it ignores the psychology of the child involved.
Even more, there are certain standards that each education system thinks they have to set, except how do you measure the eventual use of that knowledge? The people who design education seem to think that you can deluge children with teachers and time and hope they'll care eventually. That's dumb.

>Lastly, I disagree that creativity is necessary for progress.
>creativity is not something you can impart anyway; you just have to avoid stifling it.

Way to contradict yourself in your post, dumbass. Science is advanced by people who went against established theories. You need creativity to think beyond what you're taught.

people aren't being trained for the real world. i don't know that it kills creativity so much as it doesn't encourage it and yes it should.

Fuckin brown noser

>not-always-but-yet-often-straight-A high school student
No one cares about your high school grades.

I'm not befriending them because I want their favor.
I just want to talk to them. It's called "making friends." You can do it with anybody! It's actually really cool "Making Friends," especially when they know a lot about things that interest you!

Make some friends, idiot.

>I don't need normies and idiots stealing my time with my teachers.
The current system does a pretty okay job, you're right. College needs to keep free of the babying and help-along shit.

>I can get into any english dept class I want even if the waitlist is 100 kids long bc in my sophomore year I had a class with the dept head and I would get coffee with him and shoot the shit.

If this isn't the textbook definition of brown nosing, then I don't know what it is.

I would admit to it being brown nosing if I had started talking to him with
>If he likes me maybe he'll do something for me
in mind.

I just thought he was a good teacher, knew a lot of shit, and probably had far more I could be learning from him than what we were discussing in a classroom setting. He happened to do a cool thing for me, which I appreciate and am grateful for, but I'd like him the same whether or not he did that for me.

>Why exactly and in what way is the modern educational system flawed, from primary school to university?
Government enforces the idea that a citizen needs culture in order to work as a cashier.

Its not the education system itself. Its the fact that the social atmosphere of schools is fucking retarded.

When did you get bullied?

After fucking your disgusting pig of a mom.